klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<Matt|home> o\
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<nikolar> KERNAL
<heat> kernal
<GeDaMo> ⒦⒠⒭⒩⒜⒧
<sham1> karnel
<heat> colonal programming
<GeDaMo> General Protection-Fault
<kazinsal> https://lwn.net/Articles/983340/ when you ludovico yourself with reflections on trusting trust and end up with a surprisingly comprehensive bootstrap chain
<bslsk05> ​lwn.net: Pulling Linux up by its bootstraps [LWN.net]
<sortie> kazinsal: Yeah I read that one, I liked it
<kazinsal> it's really well done and well thought out
<sortie> kazinsal: One thing I really adore is that one can boostrap Sortix in one go, with all ports, for every platform, in a single cross build from Linux
<sortie> And you can even build the latest nightly Sortix directly on Sortix 1.0
<GeDaMo> There's a #bootstrappable channel
<Mondenkind> gonad penis fault
<kazinsal> of my two projects, neither of which I have done anything for in probably two years, neither of them are bootstrappable lol
<sortie> So in a sense, efforts like this also benefit me, since one can bootstrap Linux, then me
<kazinsal> one is explicitly not self-hosting because it's not a general-purpose OS, and the other is built with openwatcom 2.0
<kazinsal> on account of targeting 8088 machines
<heat> cock fault
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<sortie> I do use a GCC in C++ with gcc 5 features so I do need the complex bootstrap they do here too
<heat> gcc5 is a caveman gcc fyi
<kazinsal> I feel like I should probably figure out this whole clang stuff eventually
<sortie> heat: gcc 5.2! I'm like Haiku!
<kazinsal> but I also still write makefiles that are more shell than make
<heat> sortie, i was going to make a joke that linux adopted 5.0 and dropped 5.0 and you still haven't dropped sortix 1.1
<sortie> heat: Nonetheless gcc 5 is actually powerful and full of features and is written in C++ so it's actually harder to bootstrap than some of the pre C++ 4.x
<heat> but sadly you're on 5.2 and the minimum gcc is 5.1 :(
<heat> yeah sure
<sortie> I'm pretty sure I'm still able to bootstrap the latest gcc with gcc 5.2
<heat> no
<heat> at the very least you need a nice solid stack of patches for that
<sortie> heat: https://gcc.gnu.org/install/prerequisites.html says “Necessary to bootstrap GCC. GCC 4.8.3 or newer has sufficient support for used C++11 features. “
<bslsk05> ​gcc.gnu.org: Prerequisites for GCC - GNU Project
<heat> dude... gcc 6, 7, 8 IIRC all had compiler breakage
<sortie> I know, I just don't know?
<sortie> Just going off what the docs say here. If it's wrong, it should be updated
<sortie> But I do know there's a high risk here
<kazinsal> the docs are not wrong. you're just not in the same parallel universe shard as the gnu people
<heat> like, if you had a release two releases old, gcc (the codebase) and gcc (the compiler) could not agree on what was correct C++
<heat> and then they switched the default C++ mode! and everyone fucking died
<heat> never mind the tons of new warnings
<sortie> The question is how C++ the gcc codebase actually is
<sortie> Warnings are okay
<sortie> At least as I can go through a bootstrap phase
<sortie> I have the requirement that Sortix 1.1 needs to build on Sortix 1.0 with its gcc 5.2.0 so the question is how high up I can go with modern gcc
<coolcoder613> sortie: Like Haiku?
<sortie> coolcoder613: Haiku famously uses gcc 2.99 or something for compatibility with BeOS
<kazinsal> yeah, they consider the gcc 2 abi to be the only stable one
<coolcoder613> 2.95
<heat> amish compiler
<coolcoder613> But only on 32-bit
<coolcoder613> And they also have gcc 13
<coolcoder613> Because Haiku maintains binary compatibility with BeOS
<coolcoder613> So the 32-bit version uses dual compilers/abis
<heat> when god was making our beautiful world he said "hey, K&R C only. no warnings. a moderate level of optimizations. ok?" and we nodded. we need to keep our word.
<kazinsal> I am still deathly afraid of -O3
<heat> satan told the gcc 3 maintainers to drop -traditional
<kazinsal> too many issues with it doing UB stuff that causes pagefaults in kernel mode
<mjg> cc -pedantic
<mjg> did you know gcc got a switching to make it stop eliding null checks even if it thinks they are UB?
<mjg> i mean it got a switch to ^^
<mjg> presumably afrer the famous null-check elision in the linux kernel
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<nikolar> Also use sanitizers
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<netbsduser> kazinsal: watcom you say
<netbsduser> why watcom?
<kazinsal> because it's the least awful option for targeting the 8088
<nikolar> Heh
<nikolar> Was watcom open sourced at some point or am I imagining
<kazinsal> it was
<bslsk05> ​open-watcom/open-watcom-v2 - Open Watcom V2.0 - Source code repository, Wiki, Latest Binary build, Archived builds including all installers for download. (155 forks/951 stargazers/NOASSERTION)
<kazinsal> actively maintained too
<nikolar> Is it an actual foss license
<kazinsal> OSI approved, not FSF approved
<kazinsal> strong copyleft
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<nikolar> Strong copyleft but not fsf approved
<nikolar> Interesting
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<kazinsal> "This is not a free software license. It requires you to publish the source code publicly whenever you “Deploy” the covered software, and “Deploy” is defined to include many kinds of private use." - GNU
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<SupUser> what is that
<SupUser> That's not a bad model
<kazinsal> OpenWatcom license
<SupUser> Just use the police
<SupUser> That'd be the smartest way
<SupUser> Don't give up your secrets or whatever
<SupUser> Compile a model that fits the 'public' even if it's private because you have the word deploy not employ
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<kazinsal> licensing is a mess and I don't even know what license I'd want to use if I got my "main" project going again
<SupUser> lol yea u are kinda right
<kazinsal> my secondary project would probably just be two-clause BSD because it's a dumb reimplementation of Ancient UNIX (tm) for 8088s
<SupUser> You probably gotta pay a little bit for that bit.
<SupUser> BSD?
<coolcoder613> Ancient UNIX as in v7
<coolcoder613> ?
<kazinsal> yeah, something in that era
<kazinsal> v4 is the first one that represents modern unix in vague senses. C sources, somewhat portable, has all the basic commands you'd expect and shell features
<coolcoder613> What are the differences with v7/x86
<bslsk05> ​www.nordier.com: Home | Robert Nordier
<kazinsal> v7/x86 is a direct port of Ancient UNIX code, not a reimplementation
<kazinsal> so it's potentially encumbered
<kazinsal> one of the classic reimplementations is xv6, which is a clean implementation of Sixth Edition originally for x86 and now for RISC-V (lol)
<coolcoder613> octox!
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<netbsduser> kazinsal: Caldera disencumbered the ancient unixes sources quite recently
<netbsduser> 2002
<coolcoder613> ..lol
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<nortti> < kazinsal> because [watcom is] the least awful option for targeting the 8088 ← out of interest, what benefits does it have over the gcc-ia16 that the ELKS folks use?
<kazinsal> portability and having many compatible frontends. I can run openwatcom on all three major desktop operating systems and if needed can have it pretend to be GCC, CL, TCC, or WCC
<nortti> oh, does gcc-ia16 not work on windows?
<kazinsal> as far as I know it's a purely linux setup, whereas openwatcom is functional for all its targets on windows, macos, and linux
<kazinsal> and not just for 16-bit realmode, but 16-bit realmode win16, 24-bit pmode win16, 32-bit pmode win16, 32-bit pmode win32s, and 32-bit pmode winnt
<kazinsal> openwatcom basically runs the gamut of 1978-1999
<kazinsal> you need to do some weird janky linker and make stuff to get a good early 80s output but y'know
<kazinsal> specifically my WCLFLAGS is `-c -0 -q -mt -s -zl -zld -ecc -st`
<kazinsal> you need to run a lot of flags into `wcl` to safely do bare metal 8088 shiz
<nortti> what's the language compatibility for watcom?
<kazinsal> c99 iirc
<kazinsal> Good Enough (tm)
<nortti> < netbsduser> kazinsal: Caldera disencumbered the ancient unixes sources quite recently ← it's unlikely anyone will care enough about it, but there are fun legal wrinkles about this https://virtuallyfun.com/wordpress/2018/11/26/why-bsd-os-is-the-best-candidate-for-being-the-only-tested-legally-open-unix/
<bslsk05> ​virtuallyfun.com: Why BSD/OS is the best candidate for being the only tested legally open UNIX. | Virtually Fun
<Ermine> aur is down :(
<nikolar> Really
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<zid> good news, gentoo's mirrors are not, and there are tens of the
<zid> m
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<bslsk05> ​www.reddit.com <no title>
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<GeDaMo> Might have overclocked a bit too much :|
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<Ermine> Tfw you've got a fusion reactor by overclocking your cpu
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<geist> nah that's normal intel cpu behavior
<heat> design too slow? have you tried burning more power
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<mcrod> hi
<gog> hi
<gog> are you deving an o
<gog> sssss
<mcrod> i'd like to one day but my girlfriend is playing sims 4 on my PC.
<mcrod> i wish she'd get her own :(
<GeDaMo> If wishes were fishes, we'd all cast nets :|
<zid> It'd be cheaper to buy her a PC than a copy of sims 4 to run on it, sadly
<mcrod> what
<mcrod> sims 4 is free to play
<zid> lol
<bslsk05> ​redirect -> www.reddit.com <no title>
<mcrod> oh you mean the packs
<mcrod> yeah those are awful
<mcrod> but she uses mods
<nikolar> Lol that's a lot of money
<GeDaMo> Yikes :|
<mcrod> she loves sims 4 and i have no idea why
<zid> you know how you love euro truck
<zid> and bus driving simulator
<zid> and factorio
<zid> well sims 4 is just doll house simulator
<mcrod> i don't love any of those things
<zid> oh you're a broken person, my condolences
<mcrod> :)
<nikolar> Lol
<zid> I played a bunch of 'The Sims' back in the day, I remember the money cheat was rosebud
<zid> still
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<Ermine> r/softwaregore is funny
<mcrod> i love it
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<junon> Just trying to figure out if I have x86 interrupts/configuration more or less understood: (A)PIC and more or less IOPIC have been replaced by MSIs. Knowing where registers for configuring e.g. PICs and whatnot are platform specific, and if you don't know the addresses you're SOL. However ACPI and later UEFI came along to provide this exact configuration to the system so that you don't have to
<junon> painstakingly configure all of that stuff, recompile, or other hacks. Is that right?
* Ermine wants to play simcity 4
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<heat> junon, yes
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