klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<heat> haha linux sparc errnos are compatible with sunos
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<coolcoder613> Line editing on my OS is done.... time to write the shell
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<zid> mavhq what the fuck
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<Matt|home> https://i.ibb.co/6FkNHjf/Untitled.jpg <-- super dope ^^ <3 xoxo
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<sskras> heat_: do you employ sparc hardware?
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<kazinsal> I wonder if we still have any old sparc boxes in a supply closet at work somewhere
<kazinsal> looooong before my time we were a sunos shop so who knows if some are sitting around "just in case"
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<vai> hi all
<sham1> hi\
<heat> i want to make it clear i do not use or have sparc hardware
<heat> i was raised right by my family, with proper values and integrity
<heat> these allegations are unfounded and, plainly, offensive
<kof673> > LOW-BRED adjective. 'Raised' instead of brought up. j/k but devil's dictionary is always double :D
<kof673> it is probably an 1800s joke :D
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<heat> oh sweet amd has an architectural SMM exploit and their reaction is "oh its not a big deal lol dont worry about it"
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<sskras> :)
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<zid> heat wishes to make it clear that he has not, and does not, own any sparc equipment, nor does he advocate that anyone else do so.
<nikolar> SPARC SPARC SPARC
<zid> All refernces to SPARC are purely used as a narrative device, and in no way constitute the opinions of heat
<mjg> sparc <3
<mjg> heat: taking attention away from intel
<mjg> is what they are doing
<mjg> :d
<nikolar> sparc <3
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* mjg looks around
<mjg> sparc > itanium
<mjg> :X
<nikolar> Heh
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<sham1> How can you say something so controversial, yet so brave
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<vai> hi all
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<mjg> gogs quick: sparc or itanium
<gog> itaaaaaaaaaaaaaanium
<nikolar> SPARC
<gog> sparc
<nikolar> good god
<nikolar> s/god/gog
* mjg burps
* mjg apologizes
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<gog> mjg
<gog> c++ or c#
<nikolar> no
<mjg> that's not an equialent question gog
<mjg> unless you are shitting on sparc
<mjg> ARE YOU
<gog> no
<gog> i'm seeing if you hate yourself or if you hate life
<heat> hey mjg
<heat> remember when you killed itanium?
<mjg> gog: y not both
<mjg> gog: rust or cobol
<nikolar> cobol
* mjg gives nikolar a treat
* nikolar likes
<mjg> heat: it's a lame jerk mon, i suggest you drop it
<heat> why, do you feel guilty
<mjg> LOL FUCK ITANIUM^W^W^Wme? no
<heat> you should kill sparc next
<heat> now THAT is a shitty arch
<zid> nikolar: it puts the cobol in the basket
<zid> Sorry, I mean, ADD cobol TO BASKET
<nikolar> indeed
<nikolar> heat: at least sparc actually works, unlike itanium
<zid> Hey, itanium works
<zid> If you have a small research team
<heat> itanium also works
<zid> to decide on each instruction
<nikolar> exactly zid
<mjg> they claim there is a lol fpga which presents itself as 32-bit sparc
<mjg> and there is a real company building a product on top of it
<mjg> :d
<mjg> fucken' lol
<heat> LEAGUE OF LEGENDS
<nikolar> Is that the Leon thing
<mjg> i dont' remember the name
<mjg> funny how some shite idea can keep a modern kernel hostage innit
<heat> mon
<heat> linux is not ditching any of those archs any time soon
<mjg> this is what i said
<heat> even if no products existed
<mjg> i don't know mon
<mjg> they are actively planning to ditch i386 afair
<heat> nah
<heat> the big problem is HIGHMEM
<mjg> yes, it is part of why a 64-bit clean kernel would be nicerest
<heat> they want to ditch HIGHMEM, anything else doesn't really impact anyone on the mm/fs side
<mjg> problem goes away without any hacks
<mjg> now some guy is looking to have things work on 32-bit without highmem
<heat> yeha but the trivial solution is just to say "well, your kernel can use up to 900MB, have fun"
<heat> yeah i've heard, for ARM
<heat> ARM is apparently really the only arch out there that 1) still has new 32-bit stuff 2) with significant amounts of RAM
<mjg> the venerable arvm7
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<mjg> Select an editor. To change later, run 'select-editor'. 1. /bin/nano <---- easiest 2. /usr/bin/vim.basic 3. /usr/bin/vim.tiny 4. /bin/ed
<mjg> lol
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<heat> NANO
<gog> nano
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<zid> Hi I'm natasha bliss and I'm your freestyle dance teacher
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<mjg> i started calling it GNU/Nano
<heat> everyone knows you use notepad++
<mjg> facts
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<Ermine> torvalds's emacs
<nikolar> What does Torvalds use anyway
<heat> linus uses libreoffice writer
<nikolar> Ah the perfect editor
<nikolar> You even get to do the syntax highlighting yourself
<heat> wordart!
<bslsk05> ​git.kernel.org: kernel/git/torvalds/uemacs.git - Micro-emacs
<nikolar> Huh
<Ermine> if torvalds applied to microsoft back then he would be using MS Word now
<heat> a minimal emacs you say? hmmm
<Ermine> MINIMAL
<bslsk05> ​www.sinclairql.net: Linus Torvalds (LBT-Soft) Sinclair QL activities- Sinclair QL Preservation Project (SQPP) - sinclairql.net site
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<Ermine> Oh, 90s style page
<kof673> he was too busy with lbtsoft maybe :D
<kof673> http://morloch.hd.free.fr/qdos/qdosgcc.html i built that the other day but have not tested in an emulator yet :D i assume it works :D
<bslsk05> ​morloch.hd.free.fr: qdos-gcc howto
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<nikolar> Very nice
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<bslsk05> ​gist.github.com: gist:330a1e639c2c9b682a035254963143e0 · GitHub
<zid> nerds, what's wrong with my binutils
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<GeDaMo> What's lss?
<GeDaMo> Ah, Load Far Pointer?
<zid> mov ss, + mov r64, from BIGPOINTER
<zid> nasm just does it fine because nasm is a quality piece of software
<zid> binutils can disassemble it but can't seem to assemble it >_<
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<GeDaMo> Maybe it needs some specific syntax?
<zid> ya think? :D
<GeDaMo> What bytes does nasm produce?
<zid> 0: 48 0f b2 20 lss (%rax),%rsp
<zid> 48 0f b2 20
<zid> gas/testsuite/gas/i386/x86-64-intel64.d should be testing this I think
<zid> but I don't have a binutils source tree to hand
<zid> because they refuse to github mirror it and the .tgz is packed somehow afaik
<zid> you need to do half the build first before the files appear
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<nikolar> Why don't you clone their actual repo
<zid> and the .tgz is packed somehow afaik
<zid> [16:18] <zid> you need to do half the build first before the files appear
<zid> I'll figure it out one day!
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<zid> I think a bnch of arch code is shared and gets templated out by the build scripts or something idk
<zid> but I looked for stuff that definitely should have been there and it wasn't, before now
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<zid> like error messages
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<heat_> Ermine, we thought linus used fedora all this time, maybe he's a minimal alpine-pilled musl busybox user
<Ermine> No, he's definitely not a minimalist. He spoke in favour of systemd once
<heat_> WHAT
<heat_> disgusting anti-unix bloat-pilled glibc systemd gnu coreutils user
<heat_> i bet he likes C++
<bslsk05> ​www.youtube.com <no title>
<mjg> in the final episode you will find that the L man worked for microsoft from the get go
<mjg> and all of his linux code was written on windows
<mjg> linux was meant to be a phony competition ms has full control over, but it it eventually got out of hand
<Ermine> prank which got out of control
<Ermine> Let's ask him to write msvc bare bones tutorial in this case
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<Ermine> Watching a video about 486 computer now. Apparently motherboards of that time were equipped with bios batteries which start leaking over time and eroding the boards
<nikolar> that's pretty common, yeah
<nikolar> i mean motherboards are still equipped with batteries
<Ermine> nowadays they're equipped with cr2032 batteries, which don't seem to leak
<nikolar> they do, definitely
<nikolar> probably less often though
<mjg> fixing the battery problem is the most common 486 video
<nikolar> indeed
<mjg> apart from running doom or duke nukem 3d
<mjg> :d
<nikolar> you first have to fix the battery problem though
<Ermine> this drives extinction of boards which can run 486, which is sadge
<mjg> sure, but you dn't necessari yahve to make a video about it
<heat_> hmm does linox still support 486 or is it pentium only
<nikolar> true
<Ermine> it does
<mjg> hm
<mjg> how much ram do you need to boot though
<mjg> may be borderline impossible to use
<Ermine> and I've said I want to play with one
<nikolar> there are a few videos of modern linux running on 486s
<heat_> how much ram did a 486 computer usually have?
<GeDaMo> Mine had 4MB to start with, later 20MB
<bslsk05> ​www.reddit.com <no title>
<mjg> heat_: lol
<mjg> heat_: mine had 8M
<mjg> in general 16 was considered a lot
<mjg> before pentium took over
<Ermine> in that gentoo on 486 vid kernel was complaining about stack running out of stack space
<heat_> yeah you should be able to totes boot with 8M I think
<heat_> you just need to tone everything down
<mjg> i would be geuninely surprised if a stock distro kernel got to a point where it can even try to exec init
<heat_> oh distros dont really support i386 anymore
<mjg> not even ddddebian?
<Ermine> You can even have systemd on those
<heat_> maybe alpine does? but debian definitely dropped it
<Ermine> i386 was dropped somewhere in 3.x
<mjg> 8S
<mjg> mofo you continue talking like that and i'm gonna try things out in a vm
<heat_> or is dropping it, at least
<Ermine> in kernel 3.x
<heat_> Ermine, i meant i386 as in the sub-arch
<heat_> "Insofar as they still do, we anticipate that the kernel, d-i and images teams will cease to support i386 in the near future" i guess the debian near future is somewhere around 2050
<Ermine> I'm not sure I understand what that means
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<Ermine> I guess that means "i486 and pentium and pentium pro", pentium 2 has sse
<zid> i686 is life
<zid> only viable architecture
<zid> but by i686 I mean the ones without movcc only
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<zid> I can't remember the link, but very recently a bunch of people had to argue about what instructions even counted as i686
<zid> because some via chips or whatever were missing some a p4 had
<heat_> i386 can be used as an umbrella term for anything 32-bit x86
<heat_> if that's what you're asking.
<heat_> other terms include i686, x86, x86_32, x86-32, "intel architecture", ia32
<geist> fwiw pentium 2 does not have SSE. pentium 3 added SSE
<geist> was the only real initial difference
<heat_> geist!
<geist> hola
<Ermine> wait, there was a vid where guy launched alpine on pentium
<zid> I'm busy watchin everybody fall over trying to enter the olympic stadium
<zid> because of some poorly gaffered electrical runs
<Ermine> alpine 3.16 to be precise
<Ermine> but idr any deprecations since then, so 3.20 may work on it as well
<geist> watching guy fix bendix computer
<heat_> hey geist youre a computer history guy
<heat_> i heard you like computers innit
<Ermine> Anyway, 486 machines get super expensive nowadays...
<heat_> is there a good reason why linux kinda tries/tried to be compatible with other unices on their arch? e.g sparc has sunos errno numbers, i386 tried to be syscall-ish-compatible with svr4
<heat_> was there a general expectation that unices would be binary compatible between each other?
<geist> maybe initially
<zid> why not
<geist> a simpler time too, much less syscalls then there are now
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<Ermine> As per sysv abi spec, no?
<zid> there's a fair chance certain things WILL just run, as long as you make a trivial effort to copy paste
<zid> rather than randomize
<heat_> no
<heat_> i think the i386 sysv abi does specify the number of SYS_exit and that's about it
<Ermine> also take a look at man 2 personality
<rbox> well if given the choice between coming up with nubmers all on yoru own, or copying something else
<rbox> what would you pick?
<heat_> they *went out of their way* to customize all of this shit for various architectures
<geist> in earlier netbsds and whatnot the kernel comfig has piles of COMPAT_* options you can set, including with other unicex
<heat_> the saner choice would be a stable errno/signal-number/syscall-number (etc) numbering
<heat_> for all archs
<zid> how
<rbox> why does it matter
<geist> and i think it wasn't defining separate tables as much as adding if/elses for particular compat things
<rbox> it has to be compiled for each arch anyway
<geist> so my guess is back in the day that was fairly common
<zid> what do you do about gaps, arches where the numbers need to be offset for some reason, etc
<zid> arches without the 64bit reads and seeks etc
<heat_> it's far less confusing, easier to maintain, and easier to use
<rbox> whats confusing
<rbox> thats why defines exist
<zid> it's equally as confusing but different
<rbox> so you dont care about the nubmers
<geist> large gaps would be annoying due to the wastage in your table, but so it goes
<heat_> all the separate errno files/syscall tables/signal.h files
<geist> assuming it's still close enough to have a single table
<rbox> OH NO! a separate file for each arch
<zid> those are going to have differences anyway
<zid> x86 and amd64 aren't even the same
<zid> and you want itaniumn to be the same?
<heat_> have you looked at linux source or are you just spitballing at this point?
<heat_> slightly different constants for everyone, with slightly different syscall ABIs (and god oh god when they randomly switch parameter ordering per arch) has caused many many hours of pain
<geist> for early zircon we put FF00FF in the top of the syscall # to make it explicitly clear that it wouldn't run linux binaries and vice versa
<heat_> haha
* Ermine files bug report against zircon about not running his linux binary
<geist> really more of the opposite since post build you have a ton of ELF files in your file system, and if you try to run it it'll instantly blow up on linx with bad syscall
<geist> Ermine: we have starnix now for that. it might run it
<Ermine> what's onyx syscall abi btw
<heat_> wdym
<Ermine> will look later
<geist> probably just curious how your marshalling args, etc
<nikolar> Ermine: what kind of question is that, it's obviously the linux abi
<heat_> yes
<nikolar> with probably different syscall numbers
<nikolar> did you forget that he's copying linux :P
<geist> do you allow more than 6 args on x86-64?
<heat_> no
<heat_> the linux ABI tends to be aight, at least on the architectures i've worked with. there's no reason not to use it
<geist> yah only issue we had was 6 vs 8 args
<geist> though i think since then we dont really have any syscalls that take that many
<geist> maybe just one
<geist> also iirc i thinl inux does/doesn't have some sort of 'skip the next instruction on exit' stuff
<heat_> wdym?
<geist> i think we added that on at least one of the arches, where the instruction immediatley after the SVC/SYSCALL is a debug instruction
<geist> and then the kernel itself actually pushes the return address forward one
<geist> one of those spectre/meltdown sploit things
<heat_> lol
<geist> but then that's only doable because of the VDSO thing in zircon, where the only place for a sycall to happen *must* come from a particular offset in the VDSO
<heat_> i remember that in riscv you need to nudge epc manually on a syscall
<geist> yah i forget why, aside from it Just Being That Way
<heat_> linux ofc afaik supports all sorts of regs nudging through ptrace
<geist> REG NUDGING
<geist> new olympic sport
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<heat_> will-it-scale new olympic sport wake up mjg
<heat_> scalability olympics
<mjg> winner: SOLARIS
<mjg> further editions postponed indefinitely until the other systems can get their shit together
<mjg> kthx
<mjg> i'm afkin
<Ermine> kthx = kernel thx
<mjg> solaris wins everything, most i-cache misses per syscall, most cacheline bounces with 2 threads doing the same thing etc.
<mjg> fucking work of art
<Ermine> girls kiss only olympic champions
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<min0911> I want to make a abstract machine (maybe it is like vm) to run real mode code, so that I can call bios functions in Protect Mode without VM8086 mode.That's my design: emulate a cpu that can run real mode code, but when it executes in/out or tries reading/writing memory, do this on real cpu.I don't know whether it is a good idea or not.Just need
<min0911> some suggestions or comments, thanks
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<nikolar> i think what you're describing is called user mode emulation
<CompanionCube> probably not 'user-mode' if you're doing it for bios functions, though?
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<zid> yea I kept meaning to write an x86 -> x86_64 recompiler
<zid> for use to run the vesa bios
<nikolar> CompanionCube: it's kind of the same idea, no?
<zid> so that I could modeset on real hw, because the only video drivers I have are for imaginary vbox/bochs/etc devices
<nikolar> lol
<CompanionCube> 'what if libx86emu, but JIT?'
<zid> it isn't really a jit
<zid> but it could be
<zid> it's mostly fair to make the assumption that CFA is enough for a firmware blob
<zid> the problem with static analysis is the edge cases, not the general ones
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<zid> (i.e the things that trip static analysis up are things like jumps to the middle of instructions and other nonsense, which you'd hope nvidia's blob doesn'tdo)
<nortti> how'd you handle dynamically computed jump targets, from e.g. function pointers?
<zid> another hard one, but if it needs it, it's not that hard to add
<zid> with some 'I am cheating a little' heuristics
<zid> i.e pretend it isn't hard and just hard code an edge case that supports exactly what the blob does
<zid> or you just give up and do a callout to a function that does a block lookup
<nikolar> can you really just emulate the vesa rom in x64, like is it that simple to modeset
<zid> how do you think vesa does it?
<zid> magjick?
<nikolar> well it's not running in long mode presumably
<zid> The blob is provided by nvidia, to make the card work in systems that use the VESA api, and makes the card.. work
<zid> it'd be a bugged card if it didn't work
<zid> it might be entirely emulated, like the PIC is on a PC or whatever, in terms of how it works, though
<zid> Where it just listens for an ioport write to 0x3D4 with the exact value 0xC2 then runs a complicated load of C++ on a risc-v on the actual card instead
<zid> but who cares
<zid> Or it might know enough about pascal or turing to actually do it itself, never looked
<nikolar> btw weren't there plans with x86s to remove io ports
<zid> you currently only need them to.. disable the PIC :D
<zid> assuming you don't mind using HPETs or RDTSC or whatever instead of the PIT
<zid> I think you'd also maybe run into trouble with.. the COM port on the superio?
<nikolar> i don't even know if they are connected to anyhting other than the emulated pic
<nikolar> maybe serial
<zid> it's hosted onto a diff bus now nikolar called up
<CompanionCube> you can cat /proc/ioports
<zid> LPC
<zid> (and now espi I guess)
<zid> it just posts a read/write to THAT bus, and that bus has all the low level hw on it
<zid> rather than there being a 'real' ISA/io bus hanging around
<CompanionCube> mine has pci stuff, smbus, some acpi stuff, the other usual tihngs
<zid> LPC bus I think is serial, so it's just a wire pair going to the ME, superio, etc
<zid> rather than a huge ISA thing
<zid> and it has the old io bus running on top
<zid> the i/o for the PIC probably never leaves the cpu at all
<nikolar> yeah very likely
<zid> but the rest does, and does sorta matter for things like thermal sensors, com ports, ps/2 emulation, blah blah
<zid> it's just now on a better electrical bus to make mobos less hell
<nikolar> i wonder what they'll do to make serial work in x86s
<nikolar> presumably just some well known mmio
<CompanionCube> do they even care about non-usb serial for x86s?
<nikolar> well some motherboards to have serial ports
<nikolar> so i assume someone cares
<CompanionCube> yes but is it likely for *x86s*
<nikolar> why not
<nikolar> they exist now, they don't need to
<zid> LPC isn't going away
<zid> (even if it will be espi instead)
<zid> you could just have an mmio pci-e superio though I guess
<nikolar> yeah that's kind of what i thought
<heat_> geist, oh i've just remembered there's that vzeroupper peculiarity on your x86_64 syscall abi compared to linux
<heat_> which kind of pledges just not to ever touch the fpu state
<zid> but, pci-e 5.0 or whatever is super super expensive
<zid> like, the things for splitting lanes etc are $300 a chip
<zid> so you'd much rather use the $1 lpc part presumably
<zid> You could put it behind the southbridge on its own 1x, but intel's only been shipping 20 lanes lately
<nikolar> yeah sounds wasteful
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<geist> heat_: ah yeah
<geist> basically the C abi wipes it out, so why have the syscall layer not do the same?
<heat_> don't you need an extra clobber on your syscalls?
<heat_> i guess it's less of a problem because of your vdso
<geist> exactly
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<heat_> do you know if its any measurably faster?
<heat_> the vzeroupper that is
<geist> not particularly, i think
<geist> hypothetically it makes saves run a bit faster if context switching inside syscall
<heat_> oh right, compressed state and all that
<heat_> i haven't looked at avx codegen enough, maybe the compiler does the vzeroupper on its own?
<geist> i think it does it in the callee and only if it's about to use the vector unit
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<Ermine> bb has one more shell, hush
<heat_> what for?
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<heat_> is it a mega minimal version
<heat_> or a mini bloated version
<Ermine> mega minimal
<heat_> hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
<Ermine> no command line editing apparently
<heat_> ew
<heat_> you know, i've had dash in onyx for the longest time. relatively recently i added some hooks in the system to change the shell to bash if its present. night and day difference
<heat_> line editing, tab completion. insane
<Ermine> unsurprisingly
<heat_> and i didn't even have bash-completion set up!
<Ermine> that's why installing bash is the first thing I do on new linux installations
<Ermine> (and bash-completion is the second thing)
<heat_> i can cope without bash-completion cuz tabbing to find files/progs is the 99.9% ofw hat i tab for
<Ermine> i use tab for git stuff and for pass
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<kof673> > Aug 16, 2020 · Modern Linux kernels require a mid-life 486 chip because modern kernels require support for atomic compare-and-swap (CMPXCHG)
<dostoyevsky2> kof673: I'd just run one kernel on each cpu and never want to synchronize any state across them, so much simpler
<kof673> also, that's a basilisk surely :D > Sea of Eden - EarthBound Wiki - Fandom earthbound.fandom.com › wiki › Sea_of_Eden The only enemies here are three Krakens
<kof673> i don't know details but llvm: > march=i386 should not generate bswap/cmpxchg/xadd instructions
<kof673> so i think bsds also are similar, re: what are the minimum instructions needed
<kof673> (was/is an llvm bug, generating when not supposed to)
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<dostoyevsky2> kof673: Just run the kernel through movfuscator
<heat_> LLVM does not support 386 or even 486
<heat_> IIRC pentium was the earliest. basically no cpuid? get fucked
<dostoyevsky> I think pentium only had one cpu/core, no? So you could make the cmpxchng just a nop
<kof673> yeah, these are like 2016/2019/2020 posts...not sure llvm ever expected "march=i386" to work as the complaints expect
<kof673> just you will need a compiler that does not do that, in any case :D
<heat_> dostoyevsky, no, cmpxchg is still an important op
<heat_> you can have one core all you like, it still matters when e.g you're protecting against preemption or irqs or what have you. basically cmpxchgs without the lock prefix
<kof673> The Linux Kernel May Finally Phase Out Intel i486 CPU Support - Phoronix > We got rid of i386 support back in 2012. Maybe it's time to get rid of i486 support in 2022?
<kof673> i don't know about 486, google says yes though, there was smp for old x86....likely very expensive "enterprise" "server-class" hardware, but they did exist :D
<kof673> i would guess they would have scsi for drives too
<kof673> not "consumer" "home" gear...for servers
<dostoyevsky2> hmmm.. just looked it up: pentium had 4.4ghz, and an esp32 has 240mhz
<dostoyevsky2> hmm... my amd ryzen has 3.3ghz... but I guess it has more cores than the pentium...
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<dostoyevsky2> Oh, seems like the pentium line of processors only ended in 2023... and the first ones only had like 60mhz
<bslsk05> ​www.youtube.com <no title>
<zid> or rather, the last sku was 6 months ago
<zid> I've heardno word they're killing the branding
<zid> ah, yea, 2023, they decided to go with 'core' instead, rip
<dostoyevsky2> => @TheRasteri | Add an ISA slot to Modern Motherboards! [00:14:11] | 2023
<zid> that seems fun, I assume there's just a breakout from LPC for it?
<kof673> there were some usb 2 isa things too...kind of pricey...and i assume needs software rewritten for it i.e. much easier if you have source for whatever application :D
<kof673> i don't know if the company that made them even makes them anymore
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