teepee changed the topic of #openscad to: OpenSCAD - The Programmers Solid 3D CAD Modeller | This channel is logged! | https://openscad.org/advent-calendar-2021/ | Website: http://www.openscad.org/ | FAQ: https://goo.gl/pcT7y3 | Request features / report bugs: https://goo.gl/lj0JRI | Tutorial: https://bit.ly/37P6z0B | Books: https://bit.ly/3xlLcQq | FOSDEM 2020: https://bit.ly/35xZGy6 | Logs: https://bit.ly/32MfbH5
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<teepee> the answer makes me sad
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<JakeSays> teepee: why sad?
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<Jack22> sad because people choosing the wrong side
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<JakeSays> Jack22: wrong side of what
<teepee> it's sad if people call it open source when using proprietary tools and share the final result
<teepee> it's cool to share whatever people decide, even if it's just the final STL
<JakeSays> the fusion360 source would be useless to me anyway
<teepee> but the core idea of open source is about giving people every option you have yourself
<JakeSays> that's not what i would consider the core of open source.
<teepee> I don't mind people using it, I do mind people not understanding it's not an option for everyone
<JakeSays> teepee: so if he had said "i understand fusion360 isn't an option for everyone..." that would be ok?
<JakeSays> by your thinking then I should provide fusion 360 source files along with my .scad files because openscad isn't an option for everyone
<teepee> I'm not saying what anyone *should do*
<teepee> I'm just saying that I think it should not be called open source if the "source" is edited with proprietary tools
<JakeSays> that would eliminate every opensource project that targeted windows using visual studio
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<teepee> not really as there's mingw which essentially eats the same source code
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<JakeSays> it doesn't support ms extensions (or at least it didn't)
<JakeSays> i bought a spool of polycarb filament and i can't even use it.
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<teepee> why not?
<JakeSays> i need a better hot end
<JakeSays> and apparently it needs to be annealed after printing
<teepee> that's the water soluble stuff? I heard it's difficult to use
<JakeSays> no it's super strong
<JakeSays> apparently it's the hardest filament you can get for non-commercial printers
<teepee> ah, mixed that up. seems like that's PVA
<JakeSays> yeah
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<Jack228> you need a full metal hotend as PTFE gets eaten away .. but annealing is new to me
<Jack228> regarding the open source ..   it  is not about using the source it is that there is not a single company having all the power over the source
<Scopeuk> the open source argument has flashbacks to the tivo stuff that inspired the gpl v3 changes. Its awkward in this case there are clear alternatives to fussion 360 which would allow others to reproduce your work (the reproduction of "binaries" from source being the missing step here) . the bigger place to usually see it is with the FPGA projects where
<Scopeuk> frequently there isn't another option. although Ice storm is making inroads
<Jack228> AutoDesk  can (and already has)  change their pricing or make all  files  invalid if you don't pay ..  this goes hand in hand with the cloud and app based character - like streaming music / films (not owning a copy)  Also Adobe and Microsoft going into that CloudApp  model
<teepee> yeah, interesting point, that comes almost automatically with the "give others all the same rights you have yourself"
<Scopeuk> the cloud stuff is a potentiall time bomb
<Jack228> !word
<Scopeuk> in my industry we have to be able to support and recreate things that are sometimes 30 to 40 years old
<Scopeuk> with most software you can build yourself a time capsule, old machines or vm's with old os's and tool chains. this all falls apart if its "on someone else's computer"
<teepee> ouch, 40 years :)
<teepee> that would be my Z80 based home computer
<Scopeuk> aviation, entry into service + 25 years is standard target
<Jack228> cloud means other peoples server ..  and you don't save costs https://www.troyhunt.com/how-i-got-pwned-by-my-cloud-costs/
<Scopeuk> in my experience its dec vax but the principal is the same
<Jack228> .oO( there is a reason why floppy disk are still sold)
<Scopeuk> some comercial aircraft still have floppy disk drives in the cockpit for data load/software update
<Scopeuk> granted they area bit odd with usually an arinc network interface on the back rather than something more familiar
<teepee> yeah, there's always rumors of train stations still using Amiga computers for automation :)
<Scopeuk> the classic "every business has a 286 in a cupboard" concept
<Scopeuk> no one knows what it does or how but if its off things don't work
<Jack228> lots of medical systems run on win95 - Ü
<teepee> oh, yeah, tell me about that
<teepee> we support a dentist using an x-ray station that has one of those systems and you can't even change IP addresses without breaking the whole system
<Jack228> i remember a case where they couldn't find the server hardware - but it was working and remotely accessible ..  turns out some one put it in the floor while moving  racks .. and never unburied it
<Scopeuk> there is a story of an old telephone exchange that had a green phosphor crt based machine in a corridor connected to something that no one knew how it was connected or what it was doing but too affraid to turn it off
<JakeSays> Scopeuk: what are the clear alternatives to fusion 360?
<Scopeuk> JakeSays I'm not claiming feature parity but there are the likes of freecad and SolveSpace which allow you to achieve the same thing
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<Jack22834> companies using CATIA e.g.  can't switch to something else  without  enormous costs .. so you are fully dependent
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<Scopeuk> no dispute, it was in reference to a particular "open source" design which was produced in fusion referenced earlier. moving between tools is not free and has to be considered carefully
<Scopeuk> thats less of an impact wit ha constrained clean sheet design
<Jck22> also if using open formats that can be converted into anything
<Jck22> but if your printer needs *.makerbot  files - you are fckd
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<JakeSays> i just remind myself that there would be no open source w/o closed source
<Jck22> gets better if you have a huge archive of files
<Jck22> If we had laws that everything must be available -   so not sure that statement  is true  jakesays
<Jck22> sure we would probably only call it "software"
<JakeSays> Jck22: there's no way i could ever support such laws
<teepee> I'm not sure we need the extreme solution
<JakeSays> that wouldn't be a solution to anything
<teepee> I would vote for a partial requirement covering at least a) all software created using public money and b) all software used for education
<JakeSays> i would agree with a, but not b
<Jck22> So here is my new OPEN design for cable management  https://www.prusaprinters.org/prints/123143-optimal-cable-keeper  [show and tell]
<JakeSays> Jck22: that's pretty slick
<teepee> uh, nice!
<Jck22> thank you - Ü
<gbruno> [github] t-paul pushed 1 modifications (Disable GLX extension check when building for EGL.). https://github.com/openscad/openscad/commit/c58afa19bc26d952f40feed3828ce3f1a312b031
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<Scopeuk> with last years gsoc complete and the issue closed do we want to unpin https://github.com/openscad/openscad/issues/3862
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<teepee> it's the result report, I've kept those pinned till the next year topics completed
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<Scopeuk> fair enough
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<teepee> cool, new hardware for the build service https://news.opensuse.org/2022/01/25/os-gains-new-hardeware/
<Scopeuk> Those racks look like a scaled up gaming case
<Scopeuk> There is an element of self service ib. Mainframes only really help ibm sell more mainframes through software availability but resource is resource and all the better if donated
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<gbruno> [github] t-paul pushed 1 modifications (Lower to version 2.0, using 3.1 still selects a 4.5 Core Context.). https://github.com/openscad/openscad/commit/26bdc3f71cd0844831029b98aeeafa3d723b494f
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<gbruno> [github] t-paul pushed 8 removals (Merge pull request #102 from Rotzbua/remove_coinwidget
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<gbruno> [github] t-paul pushed 11 modifications (Merge pull request #103 from Rotzbua/change_to_https
<gbruno> [github] t-paul pushed 21 modifications (Merge pull request #104 from Rotzbua/fix_fontawesome
<gbruno> [github] t-paul pushed 1 modifications (Merge pull request #4068 from Rotzbua/update_windows_installer_info
<gbruno> [github] t-paul pushed 2 modifications (Merge pull request #4069 from Rotzbua/secure_connection
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<gbruno> [github] t-paul pushed 1 additions 3 modifications (Merge pull request #4066 from openscad/egl-support
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<dTal> so
<dTal> VR support in OpenSCAD when?
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<InPhase> dTal: Augmented reality is already provided by printing your OpenSCAD models.
<teepee> certainly not while the SDKs are incompatible with open source
<teepee> but then I wonder how that would even be a good idea, typing on a virtual keyboard?
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<InPhase> Obviously with grab and stretch auto-adjusting parameters.
<InPhase> Then certain hand gestures for creating primitives, and other hand gestures for boolean ops.
<teepee> yep, perfect match to script based software :)
<dTal> Okay to be clear I'm *half* kidding here. But OpenXR is a fully open source API, and Blender has a functioning VR mode.
<teepee> "vaguely waving left" = difference() ?
<InPhase> Writing recursive functions with gestures will be only for the true masters of finger motion.
<dTal> I think it's an interesting question what a VR interface for OpenSCAD could bring to the table.
<teepee> I'd like to see the anaglyph PR dusted off, that might be actually fun to use
<dTal> Start with just a normal OpenSCAD window floating in VR, and move forward from there.
<dTal> It would be interesting, for example, to have all the orthographic perspectives permanently projected onto orthogonal planes, so they can casually be inspected at all times.
<dTal> Blender and FreeCAD already both ave VR modes.
<dTal> I suppose a big impediment would be that OpenCSG rendering can't be guaranteed real time for complex models, so everything would have to be rendered before viewing.
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<crazy_imp> what is the best way to "emboss" / texture a surface? use https://github.com/JustinSDK/dotSCAD#surface to load the texture and glue it to the object (first idea was hull(), but that'll destroy the texture, so maybe "overamplify" the surface and intersect() with something else to get a chunk of the texture?)?
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<JakeSays> hey are you guys aware of any wood framed house designs implemented in openscad?
<teepee> I don't think I've seen that, wood furniture, yes but not houses
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<peepsalot> teepee: do you know anything about CPack? i'm wondering if we should replace much of our release-common.sh with that. there is some support for NSIS even
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<teepee> I think I heard the name, but never looked at details
<teepee> can it do macos?
<teepee> heh, it can do NSIS :)
<peepsalot> that's what I said! :P
<teepee> true, and I totally did not read that second line :)
<JakeSays> yay more cmake
<teepee> I'm not a huge fan, but it sort-of works and is maintained
<teepee> moving stuff to more "standard" logic instead of huge self-made scripts is good
<JakeSays> make sort of works. lol
<teepee> we already need way to much custom stuff everywhere
<teepee> for example, I believe we can now do PNG preview on commandline on Linux \o/
<teepee> BUT
<JakeSays> but i do agree that that kind of consolidation would be good
<peepsalot> handwritten Makefiles are absolutely a maintenance nightmare. cmake much less so
<teepee> only in rare special cases ;-)
<JakeSays> peepsalot: yes.
<teepee> yep, with cmake the nightmare is finding the right documentation, which is better than nightmare scripts
<JakeSays> peepsalot: generated makefiles are worse. lol
<JakeSays> automake for the win!
<teepee> not really
<teepee> it's fine for Linux only
<teepee> but cross platform it's really just a crazy monster
<JakeSays> no. it's not fine for anything
<teepee> I've maintained my Z80 home computer emulator with automake for years and it was no fun
<gbruno> [github] t-paul pushed 28 additions 15 modifications (Merge pull request #105 from Rotzbua/selfhost_font_open_sans
<gbruno> [github] t-paul pushed 1 modifications (Merge pull request #4070 from Rotzbua/secure_docs_downloader
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