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<Virindi>
Just got a "new" laptop (used 2017 model) and of course openscad preview is like 1fps on all my main models, so it is unusable. The only machine I am able to actually use is the 5800x I purchased specifically to get the fastest single core to run openscad previews. There just HAS to be a better way :(
<Virindi>
I see a lot of PRs for making render faster, but it doesn't even matter to me if render takes 10 minutes, if I get 1fps in the preview window I will never build that model in the first place
<teepee>
there likely is
<Virindi>
also I never use hull() or anything, and my $fn is always like 20...only unions and differences :\
<Virindi>
sorry, it is just frustrating because I hate other cad types and love openscad
<teepee>
did you try with the dev snapshots, there's some preview render improvments that can be enabled via preferences->features
<Virindi>
I will try it. My first try was with the default packages in bullseye, which is like 2021.something
<teepee>
if you can setup extra repos, you can use the nightly debian packages
<teepee>
otherwise the AppImage should work for that test too
<Virindi>
yeah np. I just have to reinstall the OS again because I hosed the first install messing with luks ;)
<Virindi>
then I will try it
<tcurdt->
I am also a bit curious about this. Would a render have similar performance to what e.g. Blender is able to provide? So it's explicitly the way the preview is created?
<Virindi>
for 10 years I have been buying hardware just to get faster openscad previews, heh
<teepee>
tcurdt-: no
<Virindi>
is it known what the main bottleneck is in preview speed?
<tcurdt->
teepee hm... isn't the final render result also just a mesh that is passed on to be displayed?
<teepee>
the only comparison against blender is *showing* the final result of an F6 render (aka not counting the calculation time)
<tcurdt->
that's what I meant!
<teepee>
Virindi: yes, pretty much. depending on operation, it's different reasons
<tcurdt->
and since the creation of the final result usually takes quite long there is the preview which "fakes" it - and that itself has it's limitations
<Virindi>
obviously hull() or minkowski() is incredibly slow and I just avoid them because of it, I really mean for simple union() difference() intersection()
<tcurdt->
is my above summary correct like that?
<teepee>
hull itself is actually very fast, it's the mostly invisible union happening inside that can make it appear very slow
<Virindi>
I was thinking though...
<Virindi>
when I am making a model, most of the time I am making an assembly. What is displayed on the screen is many different parts, and most of them have no change when I am working
<teepee>
tcurdt-: yes
<Virindi>
different parts of the top level union could maybe be rendered in the background and then displayed like a render (so, fast), and only "preview" things which haven't been rendered yet
<Virindi>
99.9% of models have a top level union which includes many independent parts
<teepee>
preview has no automatic way to optimize that, it's possible to help in the design using render() which defines a point of actual mesh caluclation that can be cached and then reused for preview quickly
<teepee>
why work on details with full preview?
<teepee>
I tend to switch off the other stuff, so for example the "zoom to fit" works trivially for the part I want to focus on
<Virindi>
if I am working on a part in an assembly, I want to have the full assembly turned on so I can see how features I am adding might interact with other parts
<Virindi>
I have simplification rules for it, for example, I have a flag which turns aluminum extrusions into cubes rather than displaying the actual model
<Virindi>
or a flag which disables gear teeth
<Virindi>
it is enough on the 5800x but not on the 7600u
<teepee>
right, that should help a lot
<Virindi>
the one usecase I always come back to for having everything visible is the travel of moving elements. It is a continuous job to ensure you have not accidentally added a collision which reduces travel, so it really helps to just keep everything nearby visible to keep it in your mind
<Virindi>
I have many designs where moving parts intricately 'slot together' along their travel, allowing the moving part(s) to pass just barely
<teepee>
yeah, makes sense. I don't have any designs which need something like that
<Virindi>
I know every 'sane' person uses fusion for this, but I am not sane, I am not using some proprietary crap and I have never been able to get comfortable with freecad (plus, openscad is just vastly superior at making parametric designs) :)
<tcurdt->
by that definition I am probably not sane either I guess :)
<teepee>
and I disagree using fusion is the only sane option
<teepee>
but now lets see if I can print PETG :)
<Virindi>
fan to minimum :P
<teepee>
ah, ok, that's easy, it's just an external 120mm fan sitting on a goose neck
<teepee>
I can just point it somewhere else :D
<Virindi>
with petg if you have too much fan, the layer bond is weak and the print looks opaque/cloudy rather than shiny. other than that and filament drying, it is easy :)
<teepee>
cool, I want more transparent as it's the casing part for a led signal tower :)
<ecraven>
(I'd love a general 3d cnc thing, but right now, I only have a 2d laser cutter ;)
<InPhase>
teepee: I wonder if you can make a hue-based clock.
<InPhase>
teepee: One level for 24 hours, one for 6 hours, one for 1 hour, and maybe another one for day of week, cycling through a periodic rainbow hue.
<InPhase>
teepee: With a little practice you could tell the time and day of week by color at a glance.
<InPhase>
I geuss you could do a 15 minute one as well if you have 5 layers, and then you'd get pretty good minute-level time precision.
<teepee>
hmm, seems possible, but I suspect I'm too lazy trying to read that :)
<teepee>
I even consider adding a digital read-out to the 60led ring clock :D
<InPhase>
I figure you probably want ratios around 4-6 between the levels, matching up to the real world items of importance. I think 15 min, 1 hr, 6 hr, 24 hr, 1 week hits that nicely. With continuous color change rather than discrete jumps, and it would be a subtle background thing.
<InPhase>
Well it would be like resistor decoding. Rough at first, but then it gets obvious after you get used to it. :)
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<teepee>
the "no fan needed" part is also nice
<teepee>
not seeing much difference between the PLA and PETG part
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<Scopeuk>
teepee i built a 60 led ring clock (technically tape feeding into the end of glue sticks as light pipes), it reads pretty easy
<Scopeuk>
The flickering is a camera artefact, its not visible in person (the led's are ws2812's)
<Jack22>
scopeuk doesn't mean you could make that flickering visible - Ü
<Scopeuk>
Yeh, at the moments the led's only refresh once per second, could easily put an effect over it with more redraws
<teepee>
Scopeuk: that's a cool effect
<teepee>
hmm, something similar, but 3d printed with clear filament?
<teepee>
there's an idea
<teepee>
can't do more signal towers right now, led rings are out of stock ;-)
<Scopeuk>
I've wondered about 3d printed light pipes, the hot melt glue works so well for it though
<teepee>
maybe not just light pipes but even the numbers, or at least 4 of them
<teepee>
or use a bigger 12 led ring to produce the hours inside the 60 led ring that does minutes
<Scopeuk>
I have also pondered designing a grid holder for glue sticks that would clip over one of the n by m ws2812 grids and then cut them all to different lengths just to do pretty patterns. I wonder if you could do the numbers as blacked out sections on the sticks and then turn on an entire segment in the hours colour
<Scopeuk>
To show a number silouet, not sure how well it would work
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<InPhase>
teepee: Typically the only thing PETG will give you over PLA is a slight bit more flex when you squeeze it.
<teepee>
no need for extra fan is also nice
<InPhase>
teepee: This has been important for me when printing combs for example, as PETG has just enough flex on a comb to be comfortable with the thin comb teeth, while PLA is a little too rigid for a comb.
<InPhase>
teepee: Also I used PETG on the chair feet I printed, so it would flex ever so slightly while wedging them onto the bottom of the metal chairs.
<teepee>
slightly higher glass temp can't hurt either
<InPhase>
Right. I think I used it for that motivation once in a replacement car part in a previous car of mine.
<InPhase>
A shield designed to keep leaves out of the engine disappeared from my car.
<teepee>
ah, yes, that sounds like a useful thing to have
<InPhase>
It held up fine up through trading in the car.
<teepee>
uh, oh, big clive live with 3 scad scripts :D
<InPhase>
Probably it's still on there with some new owner.
<teepee>
nice, reminds me of the tweet by Prusa offering 3d printed stuff to fix Teslas
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<JakeSays>
i have a hard time printing petg
<JakeSays>
i've been using pla+ and i like itttttt
<teepee>
why? so far it works fine here
<JakeSays>
minus all the t's
<teepee>
second print almost ready, 1mm to go
<JakeSays>
teepee: bad luck probably.
<JakeSays>
i haven't dedicated a ton of time to it though
<InPhase>
PETG tends to be super easy to print. It caught on mostly because it prints identically easily to PLA.
<teepee>
the spool said 230°, bed ~75° and that works
<JakeSays>
i had to go with 240/80 and print super slow to get anything out of it
<InPhase>
It does take a higher temp to do PETG though. I tend to print it at 250C.
<JakeSays>
i also bought a spool of PC on a whim
<InPhase>
But I also do PLA at 230 after many strength tests.
<JakeSays>
really?
<teepee>
oh? 250?
<JakeSays>
hmm
<JakeSays>
InPhase: pla prints stronger at 230?
<teepee>
right now I'm at 230° and the good old prusa nozzle is said to require higher temp
<InPhase>
JakeSays: For me.
<InPhase>
These are not exactly scientifically calibrated instruments.
<InPhase>
JakeSays: I'm not 100% certain we're all getting the same real temperatures when we setup settings for them. :)
<JakeSays>
true that
<teepee>
indeed
<teepee>
that said, I tended to need > 200° for PLA where most people said 190° is plenty
<InPhase>
Oh you can print it at 190.
<teepee>
but then it also depends hugely on the actual filament
<JakeSays>
i use 200 for pla, 220 for pla+
<InPhase>
But at 190 it delaminates super easily.
<InPhase>
JakeSays: Now try PLA at 230 and compare it to PLA+ at 220. :)
<JakeSays>
InPhase: what does the extra heat do to pla?
<InPhase>
JakeSays: It comes out so hot that it very slightly melts the layer beneath, causing a more thorough bonding between layers.
<InPhase>
But it's not so hot that it does any deforming.
<JakeSays>
ah
<JakeSays>
i dont think that'll make it harder than pla+.
<InPhase>
JakeSays: I don't have any PLA+ to test with, but if you tried it I'd love to hear the results.
<JakeSays>
i'll do some experimenting
<JakeSays>
Scopeuk: did you use white or clear glue sticks?
<Scopeuk>
JakeSays those are clear
<JakeSays>
ok cool. i think i'll make the 5 minute ones a little longer
<JakeSays>
cool. i'll have 250 of 'em tomorrow.
<JakeSays>
perfect timing. the batteries in my wall clock went dead
<InPhase>
Oh. I missed the glue-gun stick LED clock link above. That's awesome.
<JakeSays>
it is very cool
<JakeSays>
Scopeuk: what's the inner diameter of your clock?
<InPhase>
Scopeuk: How long does it run on the battery between charges?
<JakeSays>
what kind of glue did you use to glue the glue sticks? :D
<Scopeuk>
InPhase not sure, it got prototyped and not pushed into use intention was to switch to a psu
<Scopeuk>
The sticks are friction fit into a turret
<JakeSays>
i have an esp32 i'm going to use to control it. all kinds of ideas are coming to mind
<JakeSays>
Scopeuk: ah cool thaks!
<JakeSays>
*thanks
<Scopeuk>
Mine is running on an attiny4313 with an external clock
<Scopeuk>
The tiny section size is due to a small printer
<JakeSays>
with the esp32 i can make it flash to use as an alarm kind of thing
<JakeSays>
or change the colors based on the weather/temp, etc
<JakeSays>
i really dislike the clock i have now.
<InPhase>
Scopeuk: I never realized glue sticks worked that well as diffusive wave guides though. That's basically the ingredients for a battery powered glow stick. :)
<InPhase>
Or if we can buy big enough glue sticks... Or make a mold and melt some in... A light saber toy.
<JakeSays>
i've molded hot glue before. it works pretty well.
<Scopeuk>
That design works but is a little delicate
<JakeSays>
Scopeuk: yeah i'll print the ring thicker
<Virindi>
gah, I got nightly and it throws a syntax error on one of my huge files that the stable version does not
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<Virindi>
hmm, I guess the ability to have unnamed parameters was removed, that is okay
<Virindi>
preview is indeed faster :)
<teepee>
that could be a stray comma
<Virindi>
yes, it is. In someone else's files.
<teepee>
which one is that? if it's not secret
<Virindi>
heck, the preview is even usable on the 7600u. very nice
<Virindi>
uhh, I think it was some helper files that originally came from nophead
<Virindi>
it was stuff that got included that I didn't actually use
<teepee>
ah, simple fix then ;-)
<Virindi>
my painful preview test is a 3d printer of course, it has those files included just to get a model of an e3d v6 :)
<Virindi>
I enabled vertex-object-renderers*, should I also enable lazy-union? is there any downside to these options?
<teepee>
to the vertex stuff no, if the preview looks fine
<teepee>
lazy union can potentially produce files that other tools don't like when it produces overlapping volumes without actually merging those
<Virindi>
ah I see, so does that just affect render and not preview?
<teepee>
pretty much, yes
<teepee>
it delays actual union computation which can hugely speedup some stuff
<JakeSays>
what's the advantage of using the vertex object render stuff?
<teepee>
uploadig more data to GPU for preview
<Virindi>
it seems to be effective for even onboard graphics
<JakeSays>
hmm. i'll try it
<JakeSays>
i should probably use a stable version though
<teepee>
you can just have both :)
<JakeSays>
i'm currently using a preview build from october that has the render() as a function stuff
<teepee>
there's not a huge amount of changes since then
<Virindi>
is openscad a QT application? my next task is to figure out why it isn't scaling (that laptop has a high-dpi screen). I didn't mess with QT yet though
<teepee>
yes, Qt and it did scale fine for me on Debian
<teepee>
well, mostly fine
<Virindi>
I'm sure it will when I configure QT then :)
<teepee>
the status bar was a bit strange
<JakeSays>
Virindi: are you on windows?
<Virindi>
haha no.
<teepee>
it did take the Gnome/Wayland settings
<JakeSays>
ah. i have scaling issues with qt on windows
<Virindi>
I won't let that poison near a computer I have ;)
<JakeSays>
but it works fine on linux
<teepee>
just forgetting things sometimes when switching monitors, it sometimes reverted to 1:1
<JakeSays>
i am required to use windows at work
<Virindi>
I am using xfce, I set it it to 2x gui scaling and messed with the font dpi