ChanServ changed the topic of #kisslinux to: KISS Linux | https://kisslinux.org | https://kisscommunity.org | post logs or else
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<midfavila> are you running into issues building SDL2 with dash, dilyn?
<dilyn> with dash?
<dilyn> hmmm
<dilyn> ah, sdl2 requires gmake. what a rude question
<midfavila> recently I've run into trouble building it with dash on my systems, even using a canonical tarball
<midfavila> errors out about "configure" not being a program in PATH or something
<midfavila> it's been a while since I've checked but I figured I'd ask since you posted your system
<midfavila> oksh, mksh, yash, bash, etc as /bin/sh build it fine
<dilyn> builds fine with dash as sh
<dilyn> it errors during the build with that message? that seems wrong
<midfavila> yes, it's very wrong
<midfavila> i'll have to poke at it later this week when I have time now that I've been reminded of it
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<kyxor> okay guys I tried. Now neatvi builds with %100 posix shell, no external tools except sh and compiler
<kyxor> Is this better than non portable GNU makefile ?
<micro_O> phoebos care to elaborate? when i start a droplet i have to choose a starting OS or custom image
<midfavila> portable is immediately superior to non-portable
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<kyxor> Is it possible to somehow do better job control in build.sh
<kyxor> cause the thing is wait -n does not work because apparently even though compiler exited, it does not mean files have been written yet
<phoebos> micro_O: https://bvnf.space/blog/001-this-server.txt -> DigitalOcean section
<phoebos> tldr: choose anything, then boot a recovery image and dd an img onto the harddisk
<phoebos> reboot; happiness
<kyxor> Like shell is so close to being a perfect build system but because of small nits and limitations it's not quite reaching what makefile can do (at least without using external progs)
<kyxor> maybe though some weird tricks that I don't know it's posible to do clever job control, but so far what I got seems to be the only workable thing
<kyxor> but again, something like clever file writing requires inotify, that requires linux, then it becomes not portable, sigh
<illiliti> why build.sh? why not posix makefile?
<phoebos> kyxor: nice work
<kyxor> cause idk how to do portable ifeq
<illiliti> why do you need ifeq?
<dilyn> mfw I didn't add gmake to zfs' depends :X ffs
<phoebos> what's the reasoning behind the case ${CC:-0} stuff, haven't you just done ${CC:=gcc} with extra steps
<kyxor> detect if it's compiling on BSD, so that I can append -D_BSD_SOURCE to CFLAGS
<illiliti> kyxor: you can do it directly in c source
<illiliti> #ifdef
<kyxor> I can, but I don't want to :)
<illiliti> why
<acheam> dilyn: aw 2 packages now?
<kyxor> I mean doing it once maybe not big deal, but I am sick of dealing with #ifdef mess in big projects, so in my projects I just don't want any build up of that
<kyxor> At least if i can avoid it somehow and move it to build system, that seems to make more sense
<kyxor> phoebos: idk maybe it is with extra steps, the idea was that if CC env variable is set, do nothing, else just default to gcc
<kyxor> I'll take a look
<phoebos> CC=${CC:-gcc}
<phoebos> ${CC:=gcc}
<kyxor> ok
<dilyn> acheam: just zfs now
<phoebos> actually : ${CC:=gcc}
<dilyn> toybox includes a make and install script that e5ten made sh with their patch
<illiliti> kyxor: such simple #ifdef isn't mess
<illiliti> just create ifdefs.h, do all #ifdefs there and include this file where needed
<illiliti> simple, portable
<kyxor> I don't like files :)
<illiliti> i don't like life either :)
<kyxor> I hate big projects with 1000s of files, mess. Project should have no more than 10 files, and oh if it's very big I don't mind having all 100K LOC in one file. I've got tcc compiler in that case to speed compilations up
<kyxor> Afterall my text editor does not care about how big the file is
<kyxor> meaning it does not slow down with file size, opening files is always instant unlike vim
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<kyxor> Like tcc can compile almaga source of sqlite which is one C file, and 400K lines of C, under 2 seconds on mid tier cpu
<kyxor> See how shitty compilers force developers to make a lot of files, otherwise they can't use all their cores for compilations. But in reality bad design, promotes even more bad design at a core
<illiliti> the build.sh approach is even more messy because you don't follow established practices
<illiliti> just don't reinvent the wheel plz
<kyxor> then guess what, shitty build systems cause people to make even worse decisons like cmake, etc etc
<micro_O> phoebos thank you!
<konimex> something something "you don't use wheels invented in 1200s either"
<kyxor> illiliti build.sh is better the configure and auto* hell
<kyxor> Is it better than makefile? Well maybe, depends on the preferance. But it's simple at the core, if it's simple then I see no problem :/
<illiliti> posix make is better
<illiliti> barebones ninjafile is good too
<kyxor> Ok, illiliti: testuser told me you know how to do ifeq in posix make?
<kyxor> I don't under stand, but from what I saw it was mess with dummy targets and what not
<illiliti> ifeq isn't posix
<illiliti> there's no conditionals in posix make
<illiliti> yet
<kyxor> exactly
<kyxor> well I could achieve a condition if I run sh -c "condition" from makefile I think
<kyxor> Also I remeber there was some kind of program from the "Obfustaed programs contest" that could call a bunch of stuff from within itself, so that it could be make,shell and some other langs at the same time
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<illiliti> sh -c 'condition' works only in terms of single make rule
<kyxor> Maybe the trick that was used on that contest might be useful somehow
<illiliti> you can't control Makefile flow with it
<kyxor> god I love that contest, I should participate in the next one
<kyxor> like just the amount of creativity from those hackers
<kyxor> Well for now I'll just keep rolling with the build.sh change, yes it seems cringe, non standard, weird way to compile C, but it's functional and portable so why not
<illiliti> did you consider using redo?
<illiliti> it's way better than home-grown build system but less portable
<kyxor> I've heard about it. Don't know if it's worth
<kyxor> Overall people at suckless said good things about it though
<phoebos> kyxor: i made some changes to your build.sh: https://tmp.bvnf.space/0001-build.sh-cleanup.patch
<phoebos> it's up to you what build system you use, but i think this cleans up the shell script
<phoebos> it also sets ERREXIT which is important if the compilation fails
<kyxor> Nice!
<kyxor> Though It does not do parallel build
<phoebos> with neatvi that's really unnecessary
<midfavila> ^
<phoebos> and you were waiting a second for each obj file not built
<midfavila> parallel build only really helps with gargantuan projects
<kyxor> true
<phoebos> so you were literally adding a couple seconds off the bat
<kyxor> yeah
<phoebos> cmd & is great but there's no way to tell when it's finished
<phoebos> i also changed the function names so that there's more traditional syntax: ./build.sh install; ./build.sh clean
<midfavila> I really need to polish my shell scripting skills... hopefully working through Programming in the Unix Environment will help with that.
<phoebos> midfavila: how's your progress with all the books going?
<kyxor> ha ha, I called them with 3 letters so it's easier to type on cmdline, but no big deal
<midfavila> I keep heaping more work on myself without finishing what I already have xwx
<midfavila> we're up to like
<midfavila> sixteen textbooks
<midfavila> and counting
<phoebos> omfg
<kyxor> ^
<phoebos> i keep starting projects without finishing too
<phoebos> but mostly i spend all the time on stuff like I/O and not writing the actual program
<phoebos> maybe i should write a libphoebos
<kyxor> ok phoebos: your patch looks reasonable, I'll apply it now
<phoebos> cool
<midfavila> The C Programming Language 2nd Ed., Modern C, C Programming: A Modern Approach, Learn C the Hard Way, Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, How to Design Programs, Introduction to Common Lisp, Practical Common Lisp, Operating Systems Design and Implementation 3rd, C++ Primer, The C++ Programming Language, Programming in the Unix Environment, Advanced Programming in the Unix Environment, Software Design for Flexibility...
<midfavila> uh...
<phoebos> git am it and i get brownie points :)
<phoebos> how far have you actually got through most of those?
<midfavila> ...oh, I forgot The Art of Unix Programming
<midfavila> and so far I haven't touched them. I'm focusing on mathematics
<midfavila> in the past month I've finished about three semesters worth of maths. I really need to correct my shitty high school education
<noocsharp> "Practical Common Lisp" is an oxymoron
<midfavila> algebra 1 is just about done, then it's on to geometry, algebra 2, stats and prob, precalc...
<midfavila> once that's done I'm gonna start working through OSSU
<midfavila> somewhere in there I need to finish college and find a placement
<phoebos> kyxor: hang on, i didn't pull your most recent commit
<midfavila> (actually, I lied about not touching any of those books: I've gotten about halfway through K&R, although I haven't touched it since fucking my hand up pretty bad about a month ago. Gonna start again on Thursday. Did some work on SICP and HtDP too, as well as PCL)
<phoebos> that should git am cleanly
<phoebos> i got a physical copy of K&R the other day
<midfavila> also noocsharp there's nothing oxymoronic about practical and common lisp. it's just not a widely-used language so it lacks the extensive libraries of C or Python
<midfavila> phoebos first or second?
<phoebos> 2nd
<midfavila> based and mcgraw hill-pilled
<phoebos> is there any reason to prefer the 1st edition
<midfavila> i bought a physical copy from my local bookstore a couple months back... but they charged me 100 fucking dollars
<midfavila> also
<midfavila> no
<midfavila> 2nd is already a bit long in the tooth
<midfavila> 1st is only of historical interest
<phoebos> jesus
<midfavila> i don't even think K&R C can be compiled by modern systems...
<midfavila> i mean, C79 wasn't even standardized, afaik
<phoebos> for most stuff they can, just give warnings
<midfavila> huh
<midfavila> but yeah, that's why I have a bunch of additional "lern 2 c" berks
<phoebos> like omitting types default to int
<kyxor> phoebos: that's fine I force pushed
<phoebos> ew
<kyxor> I was wondering how to apply a patch like that, so that the commit inherits your data at the top
<midfavila> K&R for C89, CP: A Modern Approach for C99, Modern C for C11, and Learn C the Hard Way teaches a bunch of general stuff, in addition to rounding out my knowledge. After those and some projects I should be at least competent with C, if not amazing
<phoebos> kyxor: `git am file.patch`
<kyxor> ok I'll try
<kyxor> I'll just force push it again if it works
<phoebos> lol coolio
<midfavila> oh, by the by - would any of you be interested in a suckless-style replacement of the net-tools and inetutils?
<midfavila> i've been thinking of adding that to my list of personal projects.
<phoebos> kyxor: brilliant!
<phoebos> what do you mean by suckless-style
<midfavila> similar in spirit to s/u/9base, in that they implement the bare minimum to satisfy posix
<midfavila> i figure that in the case of a lack of POSIX or SUS to reference, it would be the minimum needed for comfortable daily use
<phoebos> yeah sounds nice
<midfavila> one of my long-term goals is to have my own SUS-compliant userspace
<phoebos> i'm planning on either writing my own POSIX-exactly coreutils, or supplementing k9core
<midfavila> k9core?
<phoebos> https://git.bvnf.space/k9core is my fork/mirror
<phoebos> if you don't mind the shithub
<midfavila> so what's the elevator pitch for k9core?
<midfavila> what makes it special?
<dilyn> hey looky my go patch made it into 1.17!
<dilyn> now we can drop our sed :)
<midfavila> >go
<midfavila> is this how far kiss has fallen in my absence
<acheam> hi midfavila
<phoebos> stupidly simple, like the code makes sense without worrying too much about performance
<phoebos> imho
<midfavila> hi acheam. the bayonet is doing fine.
<dilyn> >go
<dilyn> >in repo since 2019
<dilyn> mfw
<midfavila> phoebos that sounds nice. my list of priorities for my own programs is correctness, mechanical simplicity, then security and finally performance
<midfavila> basically I want my programs to be digital bricks.
<phoebos> aye. i'm on a similar page
<midfavila> rock-solid, stupidly simple and impossible to fuck up if used for its intended purpose
<phoebos> most of k9core is just a wrapper around one library function
<acheam> dilyn: is that the musl only exists on alpine one?
<midfavila> huh
<midfavila> hmmmm
<midfavila> can't say I'm a fan of their ls
<phoebos> i mean like eg unlink.c just calls unlink(3), touch calls creat
<midfavila> oh, yeah, no, I figured
<midfavila> i'm just playing with them rn
<acheam> how is that different than other coreutils?
<noocsharp> hows that mailing list coming dilyn?
<midfavila> their ls is just a space-delimited list of the directory contents
<dilyn> sh
<dilyn> yes acheam
<acheam> congrats!
<midfavila> suckless ls, at least, is newline-delimited
<acheam> you're officially a gnuugler
<phoebos> midfavila: yeah. the unixy way would be to pipe ls into sort, but i want that in the program
<noocsharp> tbh i might just send pull requests
<acheam> nooo do the classic kiss thing of sending links to patches in IRC
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<midfavila> i just use cols to columnate things
<dilyn> hooray gnugle
<phoebos> that's one of the things i'm planning to change
<acheam> I just ls -l by default
<midfavila> i really want to have a set of supplementary tools to implement common niceties as discrete programs
<acheam> midfavila: you mean "col"?
<midfavila> no, I mean cols
<acheam> i feel like we've had this discussion before
<midfavila> the suckless implementation is called cols. i don't know about other systems.
<dilyn> alias ls='ls -lh'
<midfavila> anyway, an example is like
<acheam> alias ls='LC_COLLATE=C ls -lhF'
<midfavila> instead of implementing color-coding routines into every program I want it in
<dilyn> hng
<acheam> midfavila: on obsd its col, but its not posix anyway
<midfavila> just have a seperate "colorize" program that applies colors to text based on a regexp filter
<acheam> ew no
<phoebos> ls() { ls "$@" | sort }
<midfavila> don't use it if you don't want to :P
<phoebos> when do you want colors like that anyway
<acheam> phoebos: that doesn't work when ls prints the total line in -l
<phoebos> they'd have to be pretty generic
<midfavila> personally? I would like it for logs
<dilyn> http://ix.io/3wSz i stopped being lazy :o
<acheam> with -F ls colors are useless IMO
<midfavila> color-coding errors or segfaults or whatever would be awesome
<midfavila> color-coding manpages is also nice, but not necessary, strictly speaking
<phoebos> ah true acheam, i just wanted it for the short version
<noocsharp> gnuless nasm?
<dilyn> mmhmm
<phoebos> niice dilyn
<dilyn> nasm is the easiest one XD it's just two binaries and a lib
<dilyn> nss is... not gonna be fun.
<phoebos> midfavila: what do you colour in a manpage? code snippets?
<dilyn> and it isnt' even technically good -- i imagine this makefile isn't usable on systems that aren't mine
<noocsharp> probably easier to replace nss with something sane than rewrite the build system
<midfavila> personally? yeah, code snippets, headers, that sort of thing. it'd be nice to have bolder bold text and stuff
<acheam> phoebos: -F works on short ls listing
<midfavila> it's just kind of an idea I've been kicking around today
<dilyn> there's a sane alternative to nss?
<midfavila> i'll probably reimplement a lot of heirloom tools, too
<dilyn> mfw
<acheam> Color coded manpages are indeed white
<phoebos> what does bolder bold mean
<acheam> s/white/nice/g
<acheam> Idk what I was thinking
<phoebos> lol
<midfavila> well, you could have bold be set to a bright white - but maybe I want manpages specifically to set bold text to bright red, or something
<noocsharp> i mean write a sane alternative to nss
<acheam> Do it
<midfavila> imagine expecting me to have actually consistent and fleshed out ideas
<midfavila> smh
<phoebos> i have ls -F aliased yeah but for k9core it still needs sorting
<acheam> Oh
<midfavila> oh, btw, for anyone looking for a super-simple X image viewer, you might want to check out meh
<acheam> Yes. This is the way.
<acheam> Link plox
<dilyn> applied ty
<midfavila> it's like 1500 lines of code or less
<midfavila> i've been using it the past little bit, it's a great program
<phoebos> ah why didn't i think of that for community patches. literally took 10 minutes setting up remotes correctly and forking on gh
<phoebos> smh
<midfavila> i'll probably tinker with it for a while before writing my own image viewer
<acheam> midfavila: looks good
<midfavila> at the very least it would be nice to have the image viewer be capable of on the fly resizing... although I might just not know how to do that. i'll strip out the imagemagick interface, too
<acheam> phoebos: i have insider info that this is how development happens in FAANG
<dilyn> applied applied
<phoebos> meh looks nice. while i'm trying wayland, does anyone know a wayland image viewer that works without extra EGL cruft
<phoebos> lmao
<phoebos> is that something you started
<phoebos> s/started/introduced/
<acheam> I think noocsharp started it
<midfavila> >talking to anyone who works for FAGMAN
<midfavila> absolutely unbased, acheam
<midfavila> fifty lashings
<phoebos> i mean into FAANG
<illiliti> phoebos: imv with my patch
<acheam> phoebos: yes slowly ive been infiltrating their devops teams
<phoebos> ah thank you! where's your patch
<dilyn> ACK! i've been using the wrong email with my .gitconfig. smh
<kyxor> dilyn: your signature is also expired on some commits
<acheam> Some good git rebase action coming I presume?
<acheam> Wow really slacking dilyn
<dilyn> urgh
<acheam> midfavila: oh noes
<dilyn> expired? my keys never expire :'(
<acheam> Wait why do you even have gpg installed
<kyxor> I mean idk, it just doesn't show like verified on github
<acheam> What is this
<acheam> Yes it does?
<phoebos> i think that's for the commits you used @tutanota for, for which gh doesn't have your public key?
<acheam> I see a tutanota commit as verified
<dilyn> it's unclear why anything is wrong
<dilyn> gnupg is installed because age is next on the list of things to play with
<midfavila> but muh authoritarian loicense
<kyxor> it's certainly missing email
<midfavila> >ss
<midfavila> that's excellent timing
<phoebos> how so?
<acheam> Oh I was looking on kiss-community/community and its verified
<midfavila> >muh authoritarian loicense
<midfavila> following by ss.png
<midfavila> followed*
<midfavila> god
<midfavila> i can't spell
<phoebos> ah lmao
<midfavila> i'm gonna go like
<midfavila> die
<midfavila> or something
<phoebos> don't do that you've got like 16 textbooks to read
<midfavila> 19 so far actually
<midfavila> i just tallied them
<dilyn> if this commit isn't verified for this patch then i'm not certain what's wrong xd
<phoebos> oof all the more reason
<midfavila> i need another book on languages to make sure my schedule can be filled properly
<phoebos> illiliti: your patch removes icu, but i still get meson.build:44:2: ERROR: Dependency "opengl" not found, tried pkgconfig and cmake
<midfavila> maybe FORTH
<dilyn> okay yes it was just the email in my .gitconfig
<dilyn> forgot to change that when i nixed the k1sslinux.org domain from my gpg key
<midfavila> that would be C/C++, Lisp/Scheme, Python, and FORTH. A good set of languages, I think
<phoebos> >python
<midfavila> yes
<phoebos> "good"
<midfavila> i know
<midfavila> heresy
<kyxor> midfavila:...
<midfavila> but python is Professional:tm: and an Employable Skill:tm:
<phoebos> also c++?
<midfavila> yes.
<phoebos> ok
<midfavila> look, I'm not happy about it either
<kyxor> still better than rust
<midfavila> but if I want to be able to work as a programmer I need to know C++
<midfavila> i'm trying to keep my options open
<illiliti> phoebos: i misread your message, sry. I don't think if it's even possible to build wayland application without EGL
<midfavila> because - whoops - turns out nobody in my province outside of a nuclear research facility is hiring a unix admin
<midfavila> said research facility requires ten years' experience and classified security clearance
<phoebos> illiliti: is egl the stuff made by nvidia?
<illiliti> egl != eglstreams
<illiliti> egl isn't made by nvidia
<noocsharp> wld exists
<noocsharp> but you would have to write your own image viewing program for it probably
<phoebos> do you have a link to the egl source?
<illiliti> egl is specification, the implementation is mesa
<phoebos> ahh
<phoebos> sorry i know nothing about graphics drivers stuff
<phoebos> is opengl something else?
<acheam> midfavila: forth is very cool
<acheam> I spent a day or two learning the basiscs
<acheam> I reccomend retroforth if you actually want to be able to do anything
<acheam> (and don't want gnu)
<illiliti> opengl implemented by mesa too
<midfavila> i've used gforth before. only thing that bugs me is its awful compiletime
<midfavila> i doubt I'll use forth for anything practically-speaking, other than contributing to collapseOS and maybe bare-metal programming
<phoebos> hm. why doesn't imv find opengl then
<midfavila> i'm mostly interested in it to learn more about stack machines
<midfavila> i figure being familiar with turing machines, stack machines, and lambda calculus is a good thing if I'm going to be self-teaching computer science over the next year or two
<midfavila> hence C, FORTH and Lisp
<acheam> learn all of the machines
<midfavila> when I work through MIT 6.004 I will
<acheam> oh also up your vein, I'm getting into amateur radio
<midfavila> neat. I was thinking about getting back into it earlier today
<acheam> have been learning CW in my free time
<acheam> oh were you into it before?
<midfavila> Yeah, I attended the local ARC back in 2019
<midfavila> ended up having to drop out because of personal reasons
<acheam> cool
<acheam> (cool on attedning, not having to drop out)
<midfavila> kek
<midfavila> but yeah I was like
<midfavila> "whoa"
<midfavila> "dude"
<midfavila> "what if I could like... send a camera and radio module into like"
<midfavila> "space and shit"
<acheam> Now I have a paycheck, I can buy a radio and stuff
<acheam> next step is convincing my parents a 60ft long wire in the front lawn is a good idea
* midfavila shrugs
<midfavila> I can't set up antennae since I'm stuck in my apartment
<acheam> you can use VHF/UHF though
<midfavila> useless for anything I'm interested in
<acheam> what are you interested in? besides sending cameras and radios into space and shit
<midfavila> long-range decentralized communications networks
<acheam> oh, yeah, thats what i'm into too
<midfavila> something like UUCP over AX.25 would be really fascinating
<acheam> (hence why I like HF and CW)
<midfavila> I also want to join ARES
* necromansy chilling with ULF
<acheam> lol
<necromansy> not radio tho
<acheam> oh that wasnt a joke
* acheam remembers that necromansy does science stuff
<necromansy> yeah nah my research is in waves :>
<midfavila> soyence
<necromansy> the big soy
<midfavila> ...shit, I have to learn haskell too
<acheam> midfavila: oh so you mean like computerized communications
<midfavila> yes
<acheam> thats boring
<acheam> compooders bad
<acheam> morse code good
<midfavila> i have zero interest in using radio to talk to boomers
<acheam> until disaster strikes?
<midfavila> no, period.
<acheam> then you might not be good in ares
<acheam> isnt that all they do?
<midfavila> ARES is volunteer corps. I'm fine with stepping outside my comfort zone to help other people
<acheam> yeah thats what I meant
<midfavila> and yes, ARES is primarily an entity responsible for ad-hoc comms infrastructure
<midfavila> they work with police, hospitals, fire departments, and (I think?) sometimes the military in the event of natural disasters that destroy communications infrastructure
<midfavila> but as for personal use in the event of a disaster? yeah nah
<acheam> interesting
<midfavila> my primary concerns are shelter, food, water, hand tools, then a computer, in that order
<midfavila> (shelter implying security)
<acheam> I should really up my collapse/disaster preparedness
<acheam> I do more than most but still not enough to really help if shtf
<midfavila> but that just makes you a conspiracy theorist!!!
<necromansy> tbf most people who do it are :P
<midfavila> everyone knows that there would never be a failure of government to respond to a natural disaster
<noocsharp> never
* midfavila coughs
<phoebos> noocsharp: damn
<noocsharp> that's the last patch
<dilyn> noochsharp: i guess community's go never hit 1.16.7?
<noocsharp> nope, i had updated it locally but never sent it
<noocsharp> was waiting on the mailing list
<acheam> see, its all your fault dilyn
<noocsharp> entirely dilyns fault, i could not have possibly sent a pull request or patches to irc earlier
<midfavila> wtf why is nokia working on 6g when 5g isn't even deployed yet
<dilyn> lol
<dilyn> i'll just modify the patch if that's gucci
<midfavila> ...and they're apparently building a cell network on the moon.
<noocsharp> wait, did i screw something up again?
<dilyn> well your patch bumps from 1.16.7 to 1.17 but we're still at 1.16.6
<noocsharp> ah
<dilyn> ez fix
<noocsharp> something something nokia to the moon
<midfavila> hmm
<midfavila> i've been thinking of replacing sh as my standard scripting language for some time, but I can't decide with what
<midfavila> i'm torn between lua and tcl...
<midfavila> could also use rc
<midfavila> in the future it'd be really nice if I could tune up and use es, but as it stands es is... more than a little rusty...
<testuser[m]> Hi
<phoebos> hi
<acheam> why. would. you. choose. tcl.
<midfavila> small and lightweight
* midfavila shrugs
<acheam> so is lua
<acheam> and its actually not terrible
<midfavila> yes, hence my "I'm not sure which to choose"
<midfavila> the thing with lua is that there's like four different versions or w/e
<midfavila> and they all have difference library support
<midfavila> and it's just kind of a mess
<midfavila> different
<midfavila> fuck
<midfavila> i need to sleep soon
<msk[m]> What's wrong with sh?
<msk[m]> Sorry if that's a stupid question
<midfavila> i just find it hard to write larger scripts with. syntax is funky and kind of inconsistent too, imho
<midfavila> rc is nice and clean, in comparison
<midfavila> and es adds lambdas and lots of other niceties on top of rc
<msk[m]> Ah I agree with that, it's sometimes hard to comprehend what is going on if I come back to a long sh script
<midfavila> mhm
<midfavila> like, for example,
<midfavila> x=$(($(/usr/bin/dd bs=2 count=1 if=/dev/random of=/dev/stdout| /usr/bin/od -| /usr/bin/sed 's/ */ /'|/usr/bin/cut -d ' ' -f2|/usr/bin/sed 1!d)%$((1+$(/usr/bin/ls|/usr/bin/wc -l)))))
<midfavila> this is probably one of my most-hated shell snippets
<midfavila> all of that garbage just to generate a random number in a portable fashion
<midfavila> also don't @ me for hardcoding paths
<msk[m]> That seems like it would be neater over multiple lines
<midfavila> in the script itself it's split across three
<midfavila> this is an excerpt from my ffplay wrapper
<midfavila> in it I use that snippet to retrieve a random filename from the current directory
<msk[m]> What
<midfavila> yup.
<msk[m]> Why not just ls | shuf | head -1
<dilyn> why declare the whole path lmao
<midfavila> because fuck you it was 3AM when I wrote that
<dilyn> shuf isn't posix
<dilyn> right?
<midfavila> also that
<dilyn> otherwise it's just too easy
<msk[m]> Oh
<midfavila> afaik it's not portable
<testuser[m]> Just embed a shuf impl into the script and compile if it isnt available
<midfavila> so the only real source of true pseudorandomness in shell is reading from random
<msk[m]> Why does it have to be portable if it's a personal script
<dilyn> because mid is the only person who would find themselves going from a unix box to plan9 and then netbsd on accident
<midfavila> because shuf isn't on my systems
<midfavila> also
<midfavila> it's not on accident
<midfavila> i use all three >:c
<midfavila> also also
<midfavila> >implying the bsds aren't unix
<midfavila> how could you dilyn
<dilyn> just implying that you don't use bsd
<midfavila> i use netbsd and dragonfly, and open
<midfavila> nerd
<dilyn> f
<midfavila> anyway yeah I'm hoping that if I switch to another interpreter for my system scripts (probably es tbqh) i'll be able to do more in the language itself and have cleaner scripts in general
<midfavila> the only semi-issue with es is that it lacks an embedded calculator, but like
<midfavila> expr exists, as does bc
<msk[m]> What about Go or something
<midfavila> muh FAGMAN
<msk[m]> Huh
<midfavila> to the best of my ability I've eliminated all proprietary software and anything tangentially related to FAGMAN from my systems, although I still need to rework the Mesa package and stuff...
<msk[m]> Oh
<midfavila> also I feel like go would be a bit too much for most of my scripts
<msk[m]> But then you wouldn't use plan9
<midfavila> plan 9 is developed and maintained by the plan 9 foundation
<msk[m]> Didn't Rob work on it
<midfavila> I don't have an issue with Rob Pike
<msk[m]> Sorry I'm on mobile
<midfavila> I have an issue with Google
<testuser[m]> Poogle
<midfavila> goolag
<msk[m]> But Rob Pike made Go
<midfavila> as an employee of Google
<midfavila> therefore Go is Google technology
<midfavila> therefore it's off-limits
<msk[m]> So if he made it right before joining Google it would be fine?
<midfavila> those versions would be fine, yes
<midfavila> everything post-Google would be controlled by said company and therefore can't be trusted
<dilyn> oh damn what, is libuuid bsd3
<dilyn> what is my life
<dilyn> has someone written a libblkid alternative that isn't gpl2 lmfaoooo
<midfavila> a sad story of a man slowly going insane in an obscure gahnooloonix eyearesee channel
<dilyn> nothing slow about this
<midfavila> oh hey es supports readline and editline
<dilyn> i'm zoomin'
<midfavila> millenialin'
<msk[m]> What about Python? It's slow but that's fine for basic scripts, right?
<midfavila> hold me back, dilyn
<msk[m]> The syntax is much more readable than sh
<midfavila> HOLD ME BACK
<midfavila> my main requirements for a scripting language are that it's highly efficient and starts quickly
<testuser[m]> Only practical slowness for most cases is interpreter startup time of 100-200ms
<midfavila> python is neither of these things
<midfavila> 100-200ms is too much
<testuser[m]> Yeah
<midfavila> besides, I don't use python for anything
<midfavila> no reason for me to start
<testuser[m]> That's why i wouldn't use it for something like this that runs on every shell instance https://github.com/nvbn/thefuck
<msk[m]> Well that's fine if you already use Python as your terminal shell, right?
<midfavila> if I used python as my regular command interpreter then like, sure, I guess
<midfavila> but I would never do that
<midfavila> nor should anyone else
<testuser[m]> I guess you could circumvent the startup time by using cpython or whatever
<testuser[m]> cython
<midfavila> >mfw sbcl starts up more quickly than python
<midfavila> amazing
<dilyn> ln -sv python /usr/bin/sh
<dilyn> mmmm
<msk[m]> Doesn't cython just convert Python syntax to C syntax
<midfavila> cursed, dilyn
<midfavila> go sit in the corner and think about what you've done
<msk[m]> I was joking about the Python shell
<acheam> msk[m]: no
<midfavila> you joke about it but it exists
<midfavila> look up xonsh
<acheam> midfavila: bc isnt POSIX
<noocsharp> ln -s firefox /bin/sh
<midfavila> acheam i'm using a non-posix language
<midfavila> the problem isn't posix
<midfavila> it's midix
<acheam> But why would you use it
<testuser[m]> Midix ?
<acheam> Over dc
<acheam> Which is posix
<midfavila> why would I use dc over bc? just because it's posix, in a non-portable script anyway?
<msk[m]> "The xonsh shell lets you easily mix Python and shell commands in a powerful and simplified approach to the command line." wtf
<midfavila> also
<midfavila> bc *is* posix
<dilyn> $$(w+h+y))
<midfavila> dilyn that's bourne-specific
<msk[m]> The xonsh example section cats into grep, that's how you know it's quality software
<dilyn> i was born specific
<acheam> midfavila: oh is that a recent (last 10 years) addition?
<midfavila> no
<midfavila> bc was posix-ified in 1991 my dude
<acheam> Oh
<acheam> My b
<midfavila> ;p
<midfavila> I forgive you, my child
<midfavila> your penance is that you must replace bc and dc with hoc
<acheam> Hoc?
<midfavila> high-order calculator
<acheam> But I like dc
<msk[m]> Hungover calculator
<midfavila> it's a simple arithmetic language developed as part of programming in the unix environment and later as part of research unix 10 and plan 9
<midfavila> anyway, ultimately I intend to develop my own scripting and command language
<midfavila> probably based on some unholy fusion of es and yash
<noocsharp> probably should learn some precalc first
<midfavila> i'm going to
<acheam> But its not stack based :(
<midfavila> as it stands I've made up for where I fell behind in high school in the past month
<acheam> I still don't get what's wrong with node
<midfavila> ...as in node.js?
<midfavila> if so,
<midfavila> can I introduce you to the JVM?
<acheam> Yes, the performant, industry-choice, cross platofrm scripting language
<midfavila> disgusting
<midfavila> an irl friend is teaching himself node because "oh well dude it's like a job skill you know"
<midfavila> and all I can do is grind my teeth together
<msk[m]> You can get quite a lot of money from poisoning the web
<midfavila> there's something to be said for valuing ethics over money
<dilyn> ...
<dilyn> http://ix.io/3wSS this is all zfs uses of libblkid?
<midfavila> >using zfs
<dilyn> holy macaroni
<dilyn> i'm not even using zfs yet :X
<dilyn> still waiting to get my drives before I bother
<midfavila> you should just use xfs and nilfs2 my dudeski
<midfavila> best combo
<acheam> But dilyn, everyone using zfs has util-linux installed anyways, so what's so bad about depending on it?
<midfavila> geepeel
<dilyn> *bsd
<dilyn> mfw
<acheam> Journaling file systems are for plebs who don't trust fsck
<midfavila> i mean
<midfavila> the only reason I chose XFS was because it's a high-performance filesystem that isn't pozzed lmao
<midfavila> i'd use homicidefs but it hasn't been maintained in ages
<acheam> Why is ext 4 pozzed
<dilyn> don't fsck your drives
<midfavila> 1 it's less performant than xfs
<midfavila> 2
<acheam> Xfs isn't /that/ much slowr
<midfavila> i can't just use *standard* formats, acheam
<acheam> Oh right rigjt
<acheam> Sorry
<midfavila> exactly
<midfavila> like, who the fuck do you think I am?
<midfavila> HONESTLY
<midfavila> i leave for a month or two and you all forget about my incredibly endearing personality and quirky behavior
<msk[m]> Is xfs as straightforward to set up?
<midfavila> yes
<midfavila> you literally just mkfs.xfs /dev/sdx
<midfavila> and you're done
<msk[m]> Oh nice
<msk[m]> I might try that next time I install
<midfavila> it's a really good general purpose fs
<midfavila> i use it for my root
<midfavila> nilfs2 for my home
<midfavila> unfortunately nilfs2 doesn't seem to support ACLs
<msk[m]> Would you still recommend xfs if someone doesn't use a separate home partition
<midfavila> yup
<midfavila> XFS is totally usable as a whole-system filesystem
<acheam> When do you use ACLs?
<midfavila> currently? never. but it's something I want to set up
<midfavila> i've been interested in SMACK for a long time
<midfavila> but I've never had the time to properly study it
<acheam> Smack?
<midfavila> simple mandatory access control kernel
<midfavila> it's like selinux except not hilariously overcomplicated and brittle
<midfavila> also it has the best mascot ever
<midfavila> all I can think of is this guy slapping the shit out of you when you violate security policies
<acheam> Oh yes
<acheam> Is it as good as the mlmmj logo though?
<midfavila> post
<noocsharp> does it require program support to use?
<noocsharp> the way pledge and unveil do
<midfavila> yes, it requires smack-utils
<midfavila> it's only 184kb total though
<acheam> Thats different midfavila
<acheam> Than what noocsharp is asking
<noocsharp> no, i mean must modifications be made to a program in order to use it
<midfavila> oh, you mean support from a pro- OH
<midfavila> no, no
<midfavila> it's not really used for that sort of thing
<acheam> There is landlock though, that is similar to unveil
<midfavila> the best way to explain it is as a supplement to standard unix access controls
<midfavila> it's like being able to define your own permission bits and stuff.
<midfavila> it does require filesystem support though
<noocsharp> looks interesting
<midfavila> but that's no different from any other ACL
<midfavila> i want to experiment with cgroups and stuff as well
<midfavila> also
<noocsharp> it should not be as hard as it is to limit which files a program can see
<midfavila> ...er
<acheam> Landlock
<acheam> But thats only on recent kernels
<midfavila> does the program not inherit the permissions of the user running it
<acheam> Yeah but within a program
<midfavila> my response to that is a)
<midfavila> that's stupid
<midfavila> and b)
<acheam> For example on my obsd system Firefox only sees The downloads directory and .mozilla
<midfavila> why would you ever want to do it on a per-program basis
<acheam> So that a program can't read .ssh or .gnupg
<midfavila> if I wanted to do something like that I would create a system user, run the program as that user, and adjust the permissions of said user to achieve that same effect
<midfavila> or, you know, use a chroot or something
<midfavila> of course, plan 9's namespace capability can do that with the flick of a wrist...
<acheam> Right but do you want to do that for every program?
<acheam> Also doesnt work on multi user systems
<midfavila> i would just run them all as the same user.
<acheam> But then that ruins the point
<midfavila> ...no?
<noocsharp> principle of least privilege
<midfavila> if your concern is about encryption keys and shit, just don't use ssh with the system user
<acheam> And each program only needs to see different things
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<acheam> What noocsharp said
<msk[m]> What if you move them from .ssh and .gnupg
<acheam> midfavila: not just ssh
<acheam> Any thing
<midfavila> yes, gpg as well
<midfavila> but like, real talk, I don't actually care about muh least privilege.
<noocsharp> a program should not have access to more information than is required for it to run
<midfavila> if I wanted a crazy-secure OS I'd use Multics
<midfavila> also
<midfavila> i know what it is, noocsharp
<acheam> You don't seem to follow it thoufh
<acheam> You must conform
<midfavila> because I only use simple tools and inspect the source code of what I run the most
<midfavila> unless mesa is compromised, or llvm or something, I think I'm good
<acheam> Still, why take the risk. Any program that takes user input is a danger
<midfavila> any program is a danger
<midfavila> jesus christ, any LED on the system is a danger
<midfavila> there are a billion and one ways to compromise and extract information from a running system
<acheam> So why not reduce them
<midfavila> the models employed by current-generation operating systems are fundamentally insecure
<midfavila> all we're doing is slapping shit on top
<midfavila> the best thing to do is to not use a system you don't trust
<midfavila> if slapping more and more garbage on top of your OS makes you trust it more, then that's good for you
<midfavila> but I'm not going to do that
<noocsharp> are you familiar with pledge and unveil?
<midfavila> no, because as I said, I have no interest in such technology
<consolers> whats so great about crashing the system
<noocsharp> they are syscalls in openbsd
<consolers> its the same fakesecurity narrative - deal with vulnerabilities by crashing the system - the real goal of the connviving security researchers is to DoS the user
<midfavila> well, DoS is better than a critical security leak
<consolers> the whole security community is deception with the king of lies at the chief researcher
<midfavila> the real issue is security where it's not needed
<midfavila> see: forcing tls on static content
<noocsharp> they force you to design your program in such a way that you reduce the "permissions" that your program requires as it progresses, which helps with program correctness as well
<midfavila> i mean, that's cool and all, but like
<consolers> almost all aspects of the security narrative is exactly the opposite. someone with venture money is backing a conspiracy to defraud and surveil
<consolers> tls is a surveil thing
<midfavila> plan 9's namespaces deals with all of those security issues in a single swoop
<midfavila> and it does so elegantly and efficiently
<noocsharp> explain consolers
<consolers> network signatures from librarires stop start time are all available
<consolers> this is what intel wants, verify that a communication took place and the times of that communication
<midfavila> they could get that with a wiretap
<noocsharp> ...you get that without tls anyway
<midfavila> which they do at junction points *anyway*
<midfavila> so
<midfavila> tls doesn't help much if at all in that regard
<consolers> i've been trying to stop mozilla from preconnecting. you cant disable preconnect preload images - and the speculative limit 0 is just are ignored
<midfavila> your first mistake was using pozilla
<midfavila> smh
<consolers> true
<consolers> i dont use much of it
<consolers> i cant use much of it i cant see any cloudfare or google site on it
<consolers> i want to use it locally to browse /usr/share/doc - but it preconnects to the internet and sends dns access signatures on each webpage even then
<midfavila> ...just use links?
<midfavila> or w3m, or lynx, or edbrowse
<consolers> links also had that problem
<consolers> i tried edbrowse but i couldnt keep up
<midfavila> alternatively just disconnect from the net or like
<consolers> w3m is stable
<midfavila> use a text editor
<midfavila> idk what your setup is
<noocsharp> use tor if you're so paranoid
<consolers> all emacs
<midfavila> based
<midfavila> also
<midfavila> tor is shit
<midfavila> if you're using any darknet, use i2p or gnunet
<consolers> nope tor just means my traffic goes through 30 dod machines
<noocsharp> then i2p
<consolers> what a waste of bandwidth
<acheam> eww
<midfavila> wowsers
<acheam> If youre using Emacs
<consolers> tor, bitcoin, and what is that bt protocol - all fake narratives
<consolers> bittorrent
<midfavila> oh, consolers
<midfavila> you might be interested in an article I came across a while back if you're an emacs guy
<noocsharp> well i'm convinced consolers is trolling now
<consolers> i'm an old school emacs user
<midfavila> talks about replacing a shell and terminal interface with a REPL and emacs
<consolers> i think i saw it but i didnt like it
<midfavila> oh, rip
<midfavila> i've only started using emacs recently. it's nifty enough though
<midfavila> 28 is exciting
<consolers> i didnt see the video but i didnt spot anything interesting or new in that webpage when i scanned it. maybe i should read it again
* midfavila shrugs
<midfavila> in an ideal world there would be a free hardware implementation of the lisp machines, but alas
<acheam> noocsharp: I was convinced at "the whole security community is deception with the king of lies at the chief researcher"
<midfavila> i mean, he's not 100% wrong
<consolers> bittorrent is to only to track content - to reliably know which ip has which part of which content
<midfavila> most people in le securidee "community" are stuck-up assholes who couldn't tell you the difference between a pipe and a socket
<consolers> bitcoin is the exact opposite of anonymous - it tracks every transaction - non-scalably
<midfavila> not to mention they have the gall to self-label as "hackers"
<consolers> and unmasks the owner everytime it is converted
<consolers> unsustainable
<midfavila> tbf bitcoin was never developed to be private
<consolers> all these are funded by those own the bandwidth and hardware
<consolers> like the more retards use them their purpose is served
<midfavila> dash and monero seem interesting, but I haven't looked into crypto much.
<consolers> i've removed almost all of firefox sync and telemetry from mozilla but the remote-settings client still tries to contact it though it cant use it
<consolers> i.e. outgoing telemetry
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<midfavila-laptop> shit I just realized
<midfavila-laptop> it's 2am
<midfavila-laptop> i need to log off soon
<consolers> okbai
<consolers> me too
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<testuser[m]> Does lto work with clang for anyone on default kiss ? It fails for me cuz it tries to load the llvm gold plugin
<testuser[m]> works with lld though, maybe it never did work with bfd
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<omanom> https://norvig.com/lispy2.html midfavila best of both worlds ;)
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<micro_O> phoebos nice site and stack. also like the blog post style
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<phoebos> micro_O: thanks! it's all copied from acheam, git-bruh, and june
<acheam> phoebos: i'm curious what of mine you actually copied
<acheam> also your index.html is gitignored, but still tracked
<acheam> actually I have no clue how this script works
<phoebos> your ~~design~~
<phoebos> oop I tagged myself
<acheam> oh nvm nvm, gen-index generates blog/index.html, not index.html
<phoebos> acheam: the blog/index.html is gitignored
<acheam> ohh yeah it all makes sense now
<acheam> I missed all the blog/ because stagit shows it in a kind of confusing tree
<acheam> (one more reason to use cgit)
<phoebos> yeah
<acheam> thanks for the reminder I need to learn mdoc
<phoebos> when I get round to it, I'll either fork stagit or use cgit
<phoebos> but I like the static pages
<acheam> heres my take:
<phoebos> mdoc is really cool
<acheam> as you add more and more functionality and repos to stagit, the size and time it takes to generate the pages just gets too long
<acheam> and you have to manage regeneration, etc
<acheam> cgit is install and forget it
<acheam> and it comes with all the functionality you could want
<phoebos> how long are you talking? my post-receive hooks take max 2 seconds
<testuser[m]> Push a mirror of linux kernel
<testuser[m]> Then see
<testuser[m]> Or kiss community
<phoebos> ofc for the kernel lmao
<acheam> 2 seconds now
<phoebos> my repos aren't anything like that
<acheam> but they will be eventually
<phoebos> stagit can also cache
<acheam> and if you fork it to add functionality
<testuser[m]> 5s
<acheam> no point in caching if you fork it to add functionality
<acheam> because the old pages won't have that
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<acheam> and its difficult to maange
<acheam> hi micro_O
<acheam> hi midfavila-laptop*
<midfavila-laptop> morning
<acheam> damn hexchat, doesn't prioritize newly-joined people
<testuser[m]> Hi laptop
<acheam> its good to see midfavila's laptop having some autonomy
<midfavila-laptop> okay I'm leaving for another month
<midfavila-laptop> this is enough #kisslinux
<midfavila-laptop> >:V
<acheam> there is never enough #kisslinux
<midfavila-laptop> there is always too much #kisslinux
<midfavila-laptop> this is an intervention acheam
<midfavila-laptop> your irc addiction is out of control
<phoebos> midfavila would know
<midfavila-laptop> hush
<acheam> yeah I don't trust a laptop to intervene on a computing thing
<omanom> conflict of interests
<acheam> get midfavila in here and its a different story
<acheam> exactly omanom
<midfavila-laptop> >:c
<phoebos> acheam: so after adding features, it takes longer the first time to regenerate. I'm ok with that
<acheam> for all we know, midfavila's laptop is running a matrix or xmpp server
<midfavila-laptop> i'm going back to bed lmao
<phoebos> lmao
<acheam> phoebos: well it depends on what changes you make
<acheam> but yeah
<acheam> its a tradeoff that over time you might rethink
<acheam> but if you're fine with it now, by all means do it
<acheam> stagit is a fun and hackable codebase
<phoebos> ^
<acheam> well, somewhat fun
<acheam> large chunks of html in C code isn't fun
<acheam> neither is libgit2
<phoebos> better than cgit i'll wager
<acheam> yes lol
<acheam> i'd reccomend using june's cgit fork if you do switch btw
<acheam> zx2c4 hasn't even merged any patches for cgit in a really long time
<phoebos> yeah, that's something that can be read from some kind of input, would make it muh better(TM)
<phoebos> coolio. what did june add?
<acheam> mostly just fixes
<acheam> cleaning things up
<acheam> like making the RSS feeds valid XML
<phoebos> oof
<acheam> i just use the obsd package though because im lazy
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<micro_O> anyone know of a modern/hipster replacement for cut? can be in any language but c, go, rust, or python
<micro_O> I am trying to complete this unholy alias: jc ls | gron | rg filename | cut -d'"' -f2
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<dilyn> sed :V
<ithuriel> Hello all. Has anyone had trouble installing packages with correct permissions? I noticed yesterday that what I install either ends up with 700 or 600 permissions
<ithuriel> I tried downgrading kiss but had the same problem. Nothing in my kiss-hook changes anything in kiss. So I'm not entirely sure if it's me or not.
<omanom> awk's gsub could work too micro_O
<omanom> awk 'gsub(/"/, "", $2) {print}' something like that
<acheam> ithuriel: kiss version?
<acheam> could be umask related?
<ithuriel> Yes that seems to be it. Apparently I sourced a file that changed my umask to 077. Thanks
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<cot> haha, packages are finally getting README files?
<midfavila> have you ever wanted an 18000 dollar klein bottle
<testuser[m]> no
<midfavila> oh okay
<midfavila> there are klein steins too if that's more your thing
<kyxor> well boys I am going out today on a 7 day business trip, sya in a week :)
<kyxor> bye
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<phoebos> cya
<phoebos> reminds me of kisslinux/init
<acheam> gah, ruby init?
<acheam> wow thats a bloated init, ruby, depending on systemd, cgroups, etc
<acheam> interesting though
<testuser[m]> What are #kisslinux's thoughts on docker / other container software like podman
<noocsharp> things that exist solely because package management sucks
<noocsharp> i suppose also because it's painful to enforce principle of least privilege on plain linux
<acheam> docker does make deployments very easy
<acheam> i used to use it a lot
<testuser[m]> I was thinking of running some js crap on my server
<testuser[m]> That's the only thing I'd need docker etc for
<acheam> my solution has been to stop hosting web services
<testuser[m]> I could use bubblewrap too i guess
<testuser[m]> Make a debian chroot
<testuser[m]> But docker is more convenient
<testuser[m]> acheam: do you know a non-js conferencing program
<testuser[m]> With screen sharing etc
<acheam> unfortuantely not
<acheam> I just use meet.jit.si
<testuser[m]> Btw does anyone here do freelancing ?
<testuser[m]> I wonder how dylan earns a living, heard he dropped out of school at 13 or 14
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<acheam> i kind of doubt he's making millions off of the pure bash bible
<testuser[m]> The link was the source for the dropout claim
<testuser[m]> Not the income source lol
<acheam> My understanding was that he still worked jobs to make ends meet while doing programming stuffs
<acheam> oh lol
<phoebos> he still has that patreon
<acheam> which is like $60/yr
<phoebos> and there were those kiss branded hats and shit
<acheam> he details his life a lot more in now deleted posts
<acheam> git log his personal website and the kiss website
<testuser[m]> Yeah there were some images aswell
<testuser[m]> In an issue
<acheam> he has a flickr
<acheam> with lots of pics
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<midfavila> jfc guys
<midfavila> it's 40C here
<midfavila> kill me please
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<acheam> rip
<noocsharp> wait, outside?
<midfavila> outside it's a little less
<midfavila> 36~ with humidity
<midfavila> but my building's boiler pipes run through my walls
<midfavila> so it's always hot and gross in my apartment
<noocsharp> high outside is 98 today
<midfavila> in commie non-freedom units pls
<noocsharp> 36.6666
<midfavila> 'bout the same as here then. that sucks
<noocsharp> but i have ac
<midfavila> jelly xwx
<midfavila> I just take cold showers every hour or so
<noocsharp> it's a pleasant 78 inside
<midfavila> so what's that
<midfavila> like, mid 20s?
<midfavila> i don't often work with fahrenheit
<noocsharp> > doesn't have gnu units installed
<midfavila> stfu >:c
<acheam> units isnt gnu specific
<midfavila> well, it's not on my system
<acheam> unfortunately no history section in the manpage
<noocsharp> whoa, it comes preinstalled on openbsd
<acheam> yep
<midfavila> i should probably set up some conversion routines on my PC
<omanom> subtract 32 and then divide by 2 gets me close enough to not care about error
<noocsharp> bsd units it can't do nonlinear conversions tho
<omanom> like for 98F i would say "ehhh, a little more than 33C"
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<acheam> i cant figure out how to use units lol
<midfavila> a program like ascii but for units would be useful
<midfavila> i should write that
<acheam> general purpose programming language written in rust: https://github.com/antimony-lang/antimony
<acheam> midfavila: ascii?
<phoebos> ascii(1)
<phoebos> v useful
<phoebos> 9base has it
<acheam> ah its a plan9 thing
<acheam> so it just converts the input into an int and returns it?
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<acheam> fun fact: on clang -Weverything exists
<micro_O> anyone try bootstrapping kiss with cproc? https://sr.ht/~mcf/cproc/
<acheam> cproc cant compile linux
<acheam> but it can compile gcc
<acheam> which can compile linux
<acheam> oasis bootstraps like that
<acheam> i cant see any reason why kiss cant do that
<phoebos> without any args, ascii prints a table of the ASCII characters with their hex value
<acheam> oh thats helpful
<ang> I usually use ascii(7)
<acheam> but is ascii(7) /interactive/
<noocsharp> most things would require patches to build with cproc
<acheam> they can be stolen from oasis though
<noocsharp> good luck getting openssl to build
<dilyn> mid, you wrote a f to c temp converter in the first chapter of k&r
<dilyn> u can dew eeeeeettt
<acheam> how is your knr going dilyn
<dilyn> sh
<dilyn> it's fine
<dilyn> slow and steady
<midfavila> acheam ascii can also handle hex and octal and can return the numeric value of a given ASCII character
<midfavila> it's a very useful tool
<midfavila> I wish I could muster the willpower to work on K&R but this heat makes me want to just die
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<acheam> testuser[m]: oh nice, you're listed in the privacy redirect list extension's list of reddit instances
<travankor> oasis bootstraps like that -> but how do you bootstrap cproc? :p
<midfavila> he uses raw willpower, a steady hand, and a magnetized needle
<acheam> travankor: cproc can compile itself :)
<acheam> but yeah I get what you mean
<acheam> I dont think you can bootstrap it from nothing
<acheam> maybe if you try reaaaaaaly hard you could come up with something
<midfavila> i mean, you could iteratively create your own basic toolchain starting by punching hex into an ELF
<midfavila> but that would be pretty fucking hardcore
<travankor> gnu mes actually does that
<travankor> acheam: but gcc can bootstrap itself as well, right? maybe it would be more useful for clang though
<micro_O> mes look so cool, like a pragmatic version of urbit
<midfavila> by bootstrap in this case I think acheam means completely independent of pre-existing tools
<micro_O> well, then you gotta start with a concrete lathe i think http://opensourcemachinetools.org/wordpress/concrete-lathe/
<micro_O> you can use that to start making drill bits to extract your own metals
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<micro_O> fast forward after your cabin has reliable electricity, and you can start making your own silicon http://sam.zeloof.xyz/second-ic/
<micro_O> anyone have an intel 4004 we can run kiss on?
<midfavila> i mean I was going to try with an 80386
<dilyn> this is actually landley's next project; creating an elaborate system which can bootstrap itself under itself and arrive at a minimal linux environment, simply starting from raw physical materials
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<acheam> The only dependency is a 1000 person Dev team
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<acheam> I don't think that I will ever settle into a software setup that I like
<acheam> honestly I'm envious of people who can use a piece of software for 10yrs
<acheam> switching back to CLI programs from GTK2 programs
<acheam> although this time I'm not getting caught up in ricing, and trying to use defaults and black+white as much as possible
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<midfavila> that's part of why I want to start working on my own software
<midfavila> there are *so many projects* that are *so close* to my ideal, yet there's always one or two nitpicks