ChanServ changed the topic of #kisslinux to: Unnofficial KISS Linux community channel | https://kisscommunity.org | post logs or else | "An idiot admires complexity, a genius admires simplicity." -- Terry A. Davis
<GalaxyNova> midfavila you're alive
<GalaxyNova> nice
<midfavila> yes, for the time being
<GalaxyNova> how's it going
<midfavila> slowly
<midfavila> finished moving the other day
<acheam> where are you moving to?
<GalaxyNova> oh wow
<midfavila> moved in with some friends to split rent and other costs
<midfavila> gonna be setting up the house's LAN this weekend
<GalaxyNova> that's cool
<GalaxyNova> you're in uni right?
<midfavila> unfortunately not. just a private college
<midfavila> i would have preferred to go to uni but the pandemic fucked me out of a year's worth of credits
<midfavila> i've just been studying on my own when I have the time.
<GalaxyNova> that too bad :(
<GalaxyNova> studying what?
<GalaxyNova> computer science?
<midfavila> right now? mathematics
<midfavila> i need to iron out some deficiencies in my basic skillset before I'll feel comfortable approaching the higher maths used in CS
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<zola> Does someone know what package provides aclocal?
<midfavila> automake
<zola> Thanks
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<GalaxyNova> damn cwm is really underrated
<midfavila> you know what else is really underrated?
<midfavila> twm
<GalaxyNova> yes
<midfavila> That's a nice wallpaper.
<GalaxyNova> :D
<GalaxyNova> you use fvwm right?
<midfavila> Haven't for a while.
<midfavila> I've been using shodwm on my desktop and aewm on my laptop.
<midfavila> Gonna probably take a crack at writing a wm once I'm done with K&R
<GalaxyNova> oh interesting
<midfavila> which will totally be Soon:tm:
<GalaxyNova> Xorg will be obsolete by then 8-)
<GalaxyNova> lol
<midfavila> maybe
<acheam> twm is eh
<acheam> cwm is god
<midfavila> a false god, perhaps
<midfavila> i found this wm called yeahwm that I like the look of, but it hasn't been touched in like fifteen years
<midfavila> prolly gonna reverse-engineer it and add my own tweaks to it
<midfavila> shod has some interesting ideas
<GalaxyNova> yeahwm reminds me of BeOS
<GalaxyNova> and haiku
<midfavila> yep
<midfavila> that's why I'm interested in it
<midfavila> i have a particular fondness for beos and its UI
<GalaxyNova> ew gnu.org
<GalaxyNova> GPL website
<GalaxyNova> smh
<acheam> "more amalgamation of utilities"
<acheam> very unix
<midfavila> to be fair, GNU's not unix
<GalaxyNova> GNU coreutils even have a "dir" command
<GalaxyNova> dir command is the most cursed thing to use on linux
<GalaxyNova> coreutils 9.0 is just adding even more GNU extensions
<acheam> JuSt dOnT uSe ThEm, gAlAxYnOvA
<GalaxyNova> lol I hate when people say that
<midfavila> oh, I saw that a little while ago
<midfavila> cool I guess
<GalaxyNova> yeah
<GalaxyNova> nice to see more support for linux
<GalaxyNova> not that i would benefit from this change whatsoever
* midfavila celebrates that they can now run proprietary DRM on a free software operating system
<midfavila> at least I can shit on all the normies who say that linux can't play their games
<GalaxyNova> if you have any kind of firmware blobs installed on your system it's the same thing as DRM
<midfavila> good thing my laptop doesn't require blobs
<GalaxyNova> thinkpad?
<midfavila> toughbook.
<midfavila> thinkpads are garbage.
<midfavila> fight me.
<GalaxyNova> lol why
<midfavila> the quality post-IBM dropped dramatically, as did the repairability and upgradeability
<midfavila> after using an IBM I can't go back to Lenovo
<midfavila> i have PTSD
<midfavila> post-thinkpad stress disorder
<midfavila> i mean, like, imagine having to modify your BIOS just to install a not-shit wireless card
* GalaxyNova cries in not having a laptop
<midfavila> you're not missing out on a lot
<midfavila> next mobile device I'm buying is a Reform and it's going to replace my laptop and phone
<midfavila> e-ink screen and mechanical keyboard here I come
<GalaxyNova> why not just use a calculator?
<GalaxyNova> haha
<midfavila> because I don't know nor do I care to learn Z80 assembler
<midfavila> or TI-BASIC
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<testuser[m]> Hi
<testuser[m]> GalaxyNova: the kati thing is non-gnu but it's way more pozzed in terms of size
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<GalaxyNova> hey
<GalaxyNova> :3
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<GalaxyNova> hey ella-0_
<ella-0_> hello
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<testuser[m]> hi
<GalaxyNova> hey testuser
<GalaxyNova> how's it going
<testuser[m]> nice
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<GalaxyNova> perhaps you'd want to keep your irc client open
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<testuser[m]> you can run even more pozware now
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<akira01> hi guys
<akira01> how are you doing
<testuser[m]> nice
<akira01> good
<akira01> any news for kiss?
<testuser[m]> no
<f1> hi
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<tleydxdy[m]> howdy
<f1> hello
<tleydxdy[m]> trying to figure out my install, seems like I would be needing to package quite a few stuff
<tleydxdy[m]> I wonder how do you guys track upstream releases?
<illiliti> repology
<GalaxyNova> kiss is no longer on repology
<GalaxyNova> IIRC
<GalaxyNova> because the package system is no longer static
<ryoshu> hi
<ryoshu> im back, time for libudev
<f1> tleydxdy[m]: there's this 'kiss-outdated' tool included with KISS, just run 'kiss-outdated REPO' and it'll check repology for new versions
<illiliti> ryoshu: what's your progress? just curious
<ryoshu> I'm finishing udev_device_new_from_devnum
<illiliti> nice
<ryoshu> I was thinking, I think we should deliver from the kernel everything in prop, like subsystem
<ryoshu> and make libudev just a grabber of prop values from the kernel about the devices
<ryoshu> without having its own knowledge
<illiliti> good idea
<ryoshu> same with everything needed for libinput, like mice or touchpad
<ryoshu> and possibly more to make hwdb quirklist usable
<illiliti> you don't need hwdb
<illiliti> it was invented to fix linux bugs in userspace
<ryoshu> IIRC we need it to map function/special buttons on laptops
<illiliti> just do it in driver/kernel
<ryoshu> hmm, then we can avoid extra userspace module
<ryoshu> and avoid hwdb problem - mainly (l)gpl
<tleydxdy[m]> <f1> "tleydxdy: there's this 'kiss-..." <- nice
<ryoshu> illiliti: imho, systemd can be way nicer if they step back and simplify :)
<illiliti> systemd is cursed by design
<illiliti> you're forced to implement libudev for netbsd because systemd devs don't care about portability
<illiliti> remember that
aws is now known as aosync
<illiliti> actually, forced "linuxisation" of the other systems scare me more than just systemd
<ryoshu> lennart asked for 'full stop', so I switched to NetBSD
<ryoshu> a subset of libudev is Okay
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<bountyht> illiliti: I agree with you there. If you have to start building adapters for Linuxisms in the BSDs you are already playing defensive
<bountyht> I am having a lot of trouble with qtkeychain and libsecret in OpenBSD. Invention of the Devil, I say
<ryoshu> have you got a quite compatible replacement for logind?
<GalaxyNova> seatd?
<GalaxyNova> yes
<GalaxyNova> it's a portable replacement for logind
<ryoshu> can I run kde/gnome/such on top of it?
<GalaxyNova> I'm not sure
<GalaxyNova> sway can run on it though
<GalaxyNova> they say it supports linux and freebsd but I'm sure it could be ported to other BSDs easily
<illiliti> ryoshu: kde/gnome hardcodes systemd. so you need to patch it to use seatd instead
<illiliti> bountyht: yeah. the problem here is that many people fights against systemd, but almost nobody fights against "linuxisation"
<illiliti> this makes me sad :(
<bountyht> Well I know a guy who plans to make Plan 9 the Operating System of the Future :-)
<GalaxyNova> The tragedy of systemd talk says that that's a good thing
<GalaxyNova> the linuxisation
<illiliti> that's nonsense. it isn't just a linuxisation, it's a forced linuxisation
<bountyht> illiliti: The problem is that many BSD projects are not producing projects on their own.
<bountyht> I mean, what is the BSD graphics toolkit today? TK?
<GalaxyNova> that's because of a lack of resources
<GalaxyNova> they can barely afford to maintain the base OS
<GalaxyNova> I would love to see a BSD graphics toolkit
<bountyht> Well there is TK :-P
<bountyht> I think the BSDs produce good infrastructure like stuff but it is coping with 3rd party stuff what gets hard
<bountyht> I mean I feel for anybody doing BSD ports of Firefox or Libreoffice
<GalaxyNova> yeah
<GalaxyNova> that's just because they aren't popular enough
<bountyht> And because third party projects are hostile
<GalaxyNova> almost no one considers BSD when writing a program
<bountyht> GalaxyNova: Have you read the most modern implementation of the Rogue game?
<bountyht> That freaking thing is designed to be portable
<bountyht> If everybody wrote like that you could port software to any postfix platform quite easily
<ryoshu> many linux/gnu programs are copy-pasted from bsd
<ryoshu> like e.g. file or editline
<ryoshu> openssh
<bountyht> OpenSSH has a portable version
<bountyht> OpenBSD uses a non-portable version itself
<ryoshu> yes
<ryoshu> but this non-portable one works on netbsd
<bountyht> Yeah but that is because netbsd has a bunch of porters who will port anything to it even if that means sacrificing childs to Satan :-)
<ryoshu> no don't do it
<illiliti> lmao
<bountyht> Why not? A child is well worth a working port.
<bountyht> I mean kids only cry and eat and poop their diapers
<ryoshu> but it's true that there is not really a complex bsd modern gui stack
<ryoshu> comparable to kde/freedesktop
<ryoshu> freedesktop was planned to be portable
<ryoshu> so we don't write our own
<ryoshu> but then udev, evdev, logind, systemd happened
<ryoshu> DRMKMS was expected to be kernel agnostic...
<ryoshu> but it was forced to adapt it to linux kernel internal abi
<illiliti> wayland was supposed to be portable too. now it hardcodes linuxism epoll
<illiliti> and nobody fights against it
<illiliti> everyone just implemented shims to appease that dependency
<ryoshu> not true, netbsd has a kqueue-based version
<ryoshu> hese libraries currently have hard dependencies on Linux kernel APIs like epoll. In pkgsrc we've patched the libraries to add kqueue(2) support, but the patches haven't been accepted upstream.
<GalaxyNova> freedesktop doesn't really care about BSDs
<illiliti> that's the problem
<illiliti> "patches haven't been accepted"
<GalaxyNova> I think BSD people should just make their own ecosystem of things
<ryoshu> first we need users to retain their linux tools, then we can extend
<GalaxyNova> trying to port things is futile
<GalaxyNova> eventually there will be so many extensions and linuxisms that it will be impossible
<bountyht> My experience is that yuou can work with upstream if they are not hostile. When they are hostile you need to give them up.
<bountyht> Because the only thing you do is pour work into a whole that takes and takes adn takes and never gives anythign back
<GalaxyNova> well
<GalaxyNova> eventually that will be like asking a windows program to be ported on linux
<ryoshu> there is also macos, it uses bsd code for posix layer
<ryoshu> and android uses bsd code for bionic and possibly more
<bountyht> wtw anybody using pkgsrc in kisslinux? :-P
<ryoshu> one wayland developer became a netbsd/pkgsrc dev
<ryoshu> but we need more manpower
<GalaxyNova> yes
<GalaxyNova> together we will take over the open source world
<illiliti> pkgsrc is too complex
<illiliti> i prefer kiss :)
<bountyht> lol
<bountyht> SOmething that puts me off is the dependence on github I see around here
<bountyht> Like they are fucking using FOSS code for training their AI :-)
<GalaxyNova> yeah
<GalaxyNova> that's annoying
<GalaxyNova> dylan insists on using it though
<GalaxyNova> there used to be a mirror
<bountyht> It is extra annoying because they won't let me register with my email address for some reason
<bountyht> And that means no contributions
<bountyht> Which kind of sucks the fun out of FOSS
<GalaxyNova> sourcehut lets you contribute without an account
<GalaxyNova> which is amazing
<bountyht> AWESOME
<illiliti> github is shit, i agree. i'll migrate to codeberg/notabug at some point
<GalaxyNova> or host your own
<GalaxyNova> I recently switched from hosting my projects on github to gitea
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<bountyht> I host my stuff on CVS because I am weird
<bountyht> \o/
<GalaxyNova_> lol
<GalaxyNova_> i might look into fossil
<bountyht> Actually I find it more manageable if you don't intend to do much branching
<GalaxyNova_> OpenBSD is hosted on CVS IIRC
<bountyht> And even then
<bountyht> I have two separated versions of a Brogue ports in the same repository which is quite fun heh
<bountyht> GalaxyNova: Yes, they ahve their own implementation of CVS too
<bountyht> Also their own tolls for offering anonymous access
<bountyht> They have a wrapper with all the pledge() things going on which is quite nice.
<GalaxyNova_> yes
<GalaxyNova_> very cool
<bountyht> It makes CVS look less like a dinosaur
<GalaxyNova_> I love OpenBSD
<GalaxyNova_> I've just switched to it from kiss
<ryoshu> the difference between the tree major BSDs is: freebsd tries to put more stress on linux compat shims, openbsd on inventing new things, netbsd on clean design of usually preexisting things
<ryoshu> so freebsd just implemented libudev and evdev as-is
<GalaxyNova_> freebsd is just linux but bsd :-)
<GalaxyNova_> change my mind
<bountyht> Actually I don't use FreeBSD because it feels a lot like a Linux livensed BSD
<bountyht> A BSD licensed Linux
<GalaxyNova_> ^^
<GalaxyNova_> I might consider trying out NetBSD sometime
<bountyht> When Linux started getting hard with containers and gained ZFS support FreeBSD kind of lots its appeal in comparison for most applications
<illiliti> netbsd seems to be more developed than openbsd imo
<GalaxyNova_> but i really like OpenBSD's focus on code quality
<bountyht> NetBSD is quite fine
<GalaxyNova_> illiliti: That's because OpenBSD has bi-yearly releases
<bountyht> illiliti: What OpenBSD has is some in-house projects that are awesome.
<GalaxyNova_> yes
<bountyht> Like their in-house httpd
<bountyht> Or OpenSMTPD
<bountyht> Not to mention OpenSSH
<GalaxyNova_> doas
<GalaxyNova_> libressl
<bountyht> The os itself is so-so but the structure is quite nice.
<bountyht> I think NetBSD develops more aggressively
<bountyht> I remember complaining that something was not available in OpenBSD. A porter took the problem and made a port out of it in 3 minutes for me hahahaha
<bountyht> NetBSD*
<GalaxyNova_> if you commit slightly buggy code to OpenBSD theo will personally come to your house and strangle you
<illiliti> lol
<bountyht> There is a no-mercy policy
<bountyht> First time I sent a patch somebody wrote to me "Read the documentation first before you bother us again, kid"
<GalaxyNova_> lmao
<bountyht> I suspect they have a policy in place to be rude to every first timer. If they stay more than a week they know they care for the system more than for feelings ahahahaha
<illiliti> what about dragonflybsd? is it good?
<bountyht> Never tried it
<GalaxyNova_> it's a fork of FreeBSD from 2005
<GalaxyNova_> with a new filesystem
<ryoshu> kind of old freebsd with an experimental filesystem and SMP
<GalaxyNova_> they've also got micro kernel stuff or so i think
<ryoshu> no
<ryoshu> they have something like usermode kernel
<GalaxyNova_> ah
<ryoshu> but we have rumpkernel and usermode_netbsd
<bountyht> ryoshu: Is there any way in pkgsrc to blacklist a port? As in, instructing pkgsrc notto attempt to build anything that depends on port X, Y or Z?
<GalaxyNova_> is openbsd doas ported to netbsd?
<ryoshu> doas is ported
<GalaxyNova_> ah cool
<ryoshu> bountyht: there was some way, but I forgot - #pkgsrc is more helpful
<bountyht> No problem
<bountyht> I think there is even a doas for linux, but I d have to check
<bountyht> GalaxyNova: I have used NetBSD for my raspberries. It is definitively worth a try if you are curious
<bountyht> Although for light work I use Tiny Core Linux in my raspbies because Tiny Core Linux does not touch the SD card after booting
<ryoshu> thanks!
<ryoshu> at some point of time dragonfly was leading in wayland
<ryoshu> and drmkms
<illiliti> is it possible to run wayland on openbsd?
<GalaxyNova_> Yes
<GalaxyNova_> but it's not officially supported
<GalaxyNova_> and there's no packages for it in the repositories
<illiliti> where i can find these packages(and patches)?
<GalaxyNova_> uh
<GalaxyNova_> idk
<GalaxyNova_> the internet, probably
<bountyht> wtf
<GalaxyNova_> I've seen videos of ppl running wayland on OpenBSD
<bountyht> I am not that familiar with wayland but didn't it require specific drm integration or something?
<GalaxyNova_> Direct Rendering Manager yes
<illiliti> it requires mesa(?)
<bountyht> At least some Wayland devs have declared they intend to make it BSD portable and that a buch of things they were being pressed into including in the wlroot were inacceptable because they broke portability
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