<kayw>
hmmm yeah if defconfig works then it shouldn't be too hard to go from there?
<dilyn>
shouldn't be!
<dilyn>
honestly i'd just try a defconfig, see if it works. if it boots, then you can move on to figuring what what might be broken
<dilyn>
the only thing that would be broken is hardware support for like, a touchpad, a webcam, etc., and that's not *hard*, technically, to fix
<kayw>
alright fuck it i've got time, lets try installing
<kayw>
gotta change the hdd inside, it's got 9front on it and i'd prefer to save it
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<msk_1411[m]>
Any chance of qt5-webengine being added to the bin repo?
<jslick>
I have kernel config for w520, using intel graphics, should be similar to x220
<kayw>
oh cool, i havent gotten to the kernel config yet
<kayw>
right now, gpg is being a PITA and is giving me a "general error" for god knows what reason
<jslick>
Here's my config for w520 kernel 5.10.24 running kiss: http://ix.io/3rMV ; should be similar to x220 ; iirc I configured firmware for iwlwifi-6000g2a-6.ucode according to the kiss wiki
<jslick>
I have an x220 too, but it's running arch atm
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<jslick>
* alsa it's configured for lvm & initramfs, which you may or may not want idk
<jslick>
* also
<kayw>
it can't resolve the keyserver but i'm able to ping websites fine?
<kayw>
god i really hate linux right now
<kayw>
ok this is super strange? i can't ping keys.gnupg.net, but i can ping google just fine? the hell's going on?
<jslick>
maybe your /etc/resolv.conf is messed up or something
<kayw>
maybe?
<kayw>
i really don't know
<kayw>
maybe it's bc i'm using an arch iso as my live environment?
<noocsharp>
i used an arch iso, but it was about a year ago
<noocsharp>
it doesn't seem like keys.gnupg.net resolves...
<kayw>
ok what the fuck is happening? curl just segfaulted
<dilyn>
no, keyservers are notoriously slow
<noocsharp>
you should be able to pull the key from the kiss repo README, no?
<kayw>
i just cannot ping them. that or my network is for some reason blocking it
<dilyn>
correct noocsharp :)
<kayw>
i can, yea
<kayw>
alright, i'll do that
<dilyn>
i've only ever successfully imported a key from a gpg keyserver *once*
<dilyn>
every other time, I get a timeout
<noocsharp>
for me keys.gnupg.net doesn't even resolve
<dilyn>
it took me an entire day to get my key uploaded to a server XD
<kayw>
im too used to guis, how the hell do i extract the gpg key from the readme? just import it right into gpg?
<kayw>
that and having vim
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<dilyn>
you can just cut the README to only be the ----BEGIN....----END... part
<dilyn>
and then just import the key from that file
<kayw>
shit true
<kayw>
im linuxing while sleep depreived, sorry
<dilyn>
you aren't the first to ask :v
<kayw>
also, i'm a bit out of the loop, but what's the current situation with dylan coming back?
<dilyn>
currently unknown; he'll make a post soon about it all
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<testuser[m]>
Hi
<acheam>
hello!
<dilyn>
o/
<acheam>
midfavila: mind sharing your cflags?
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<riteo>
I'm finally back
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<riteo>
or at least I'll be, I'm very exausted and I'll pass out soon
<riteo>
dylanaraps: I came back after a while on minekiss and I found out that for some reason the native library validation system you proposed was already implemented, and it works amazingly!
<riteo>
There's sure a lot of polishing to be done and I still have to test whether even simpler systems could be viable (zip CRC? Maybe even just blindly decompressing, although your solution seems way cleaner and is probably way faster), but your idea is extremely elegant and its implementation is very small and clean! Thank you so much!
<riteo>
oh here's what was missing, it was the linking part! That'll be very easy to add too, just a few lines.
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<riteo>
it finally works now!
<testuser[m]>
Nice
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<riteo>
now I can run down to version 1.6
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<riteo>
also I should really work on that nvidia thing but this minekiss is really taking all my time for this type of projects
<riteo>
I hope it isn't urgent for you testuser[m]
<riteo>
I know I said to you i'd be working on it before minekiss came
<zola>
A package i am making requires libudev, how do i put that into depends file without locking the user into eudev or libudev-zero?
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<dilyn>
acheam: killed json-glib :v
<testuser[m]>
Lol no problem riteo
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<sad_plan>
dilyn: did you give up on the static building? seeing as neither of your static repos are seeing much attention lately :p
<dilyn>
just busy...
<dilyn>
:v
<dilyn>
mesa takes all the fun out of it haha
<sad_plan>
I can get that. seeing as it just wont build staticly. cant live without it either eh? I belive oasis doesnt inlcude it in their repo though. atleast I dont recall seeing it in his repo
<sad_plan>
s/can get/get/
<dilyn>
yeah mcf uses swc/wld/velox
<dilyn>
which unfortunately doesn't work with amdgpu! so i can't actually go that route on this machine...
<sad_plan>
bummer
<sad_plan>
how is he making mpv work though? mpv has a dependecy on mesa
<riteo>
why can't mesa be built statically?
<sad_plan>
isnt the issue with how its built? the buildsystem or something?
<dilyn>
because it relies on dynamically loading the graphics library
<riteo>
oh
<dilyn>
in their words, "why would you want to not do this"
<riteo>
maybe they change gpu vendor every three weeks
<riteo>
lmao
<schillingklaus>
mcf is oasis?
<sad_plan>
yeah.
<sad_plan>
im guessing devs name though, but yeah
<sad_plan>
michael forney or however its spelled
<riteo>
now I'm talking in absolute ignorance, mind you, but how hard would it be to fork mesa and remove the dynamic linking? Did they sprinkle dlopen everywhere?
<dilyn>
I mean, it's not *technically* hard to build the libraries statically
<Erus_Iluvatar>
dilyn: I'm also curious, why statically link everything ?
<dilyn>
I didn't look terribly closely past 'oh it tries to load dri/swrast, which obviously doesn't exist because I didn't build it, so obviously something something no-go
<dilyn>
why NOT!
<dilyn>
like most of the things I do, it's to prove I can
<dilyn>
no other real reason
<riteo>
by not working do you mean without modification?
<sad_plan>
this ^
<dilyn>
I'm almost entirely motivated by intrinsic value
<riteo>
(outside of the seds in the build file)
<Erus_Iluvatar>
To avoid having to rebuild every package when a lib gets updated?
<dilyn>
I mean my solution is to simply update less frequently
<riteo>
I heard static linking can be faster with optimizations and more stable in case of a breaking update
<riteo>
no more libcpp breaking everything on its path
<dilyn>
i could update once a month and still be more up-to-date than probably 85% of all Linux boxes
<schillingklaus>
I'm not a fan of bleeding edge stuff anyways
<dilyn>
the benefits of static linking are... about equal to its negatives, tbh. practically speaking, I'm not certain you'd notice
<sad_plan>
^probably because alot of people run debian derivatives
<dilyn>
like, static systems are good in specific circumstances. but if you just *have a PC*, you probably... don't need to care?
<riteo>
isn't the only drawback of static linking, like, more storage?
<dilyn>
no
<dilyn>
as previously said, updates are harder
<dilyn>
technically you can see huge space savings if you go all-static
<Erus_Iluvatar>
And even that is not certain afaiu
<Erus_Iluvatar>
You can remove everything you did not use if you build static
<Erus_Iluvatar>
Si it depends
<Erus_Iluvatar>
*so
<dilyn>
most build systems work against you when you try to build things statically (for instance, a lot of meson.build files specify shared_library() when they should just say library() so that users can change it using -Ddefault_library={static,shared,both}
<riteo>
how can they harder on a source based distro? Wouldn't they be just slower?
<schillingklaus>
mere linux tries to go static for server and containers, but adds dynamic for desktop usage
<dilyn>
updates are harder because you have to rebuild the entire chain of dependencies to get the 'benefit' of the update
<riteo>
that just sounds slower than harder to me
<dilyn>
like, if flac sees an update that changes some things in a symbol, you have to rebuild mpv. otherwise, mpv won't have the new symbol
<dilyn>
it absolutely womps :)
<riteo>
I see
<sad_plan>
I wouldnt count that as harder. it just takes more time. that being said, that updates isnt failing though.
<schillingklaus>
what if one does not want the benefit of an update?
<sad_plan>
then you dont update
<dilyn>
the initial hurdle of identifying all the proper dependencies when setting it up is annoying, and the time-cost is an element of difficulty imho
<dilyn>
but you're right that technically it isn't *hard* to do
<riteo>
sad_plan: yeah I agree, although that's quite a disadvantage for a work computer with more than basic software
<dilyn>
you can't even build a modern browser statically - firefox removed the option years ago
<dilyn>
you can't actually build nss statically, because it just *doesn't work*
<riteo>
well, modern web browsers are what they are
<riteo>
I'm curious on why it wouldn't work though
<sad_plan>
riteo: but if it works like intended now, do you *really* need the new update? I mean, I like updates, but if something works now, its not really an issue of staying there.
<sad_plan>
if it aint broke, dont fix it, as someone says :p
<sad_plan>
s/broke/broken
<riteo>
I actually prefer staying on the bleeding edge
<dilyn>
then you leave yourself open to security bugs sad_plan :P
<sad_plan>
dilyn: cant you build something like surf statically?
<riteo>
usually when I stick to stable versions is because the thing I'm using is finnicky and weird
<sad_plan>
yes, I know, but that was not really part of what I was refering to:p but that is indeed a vital part of why one should stay up to date
<dilyn>
riteo: i have long since forgotten what part of nss fails, but... it's just literally impossible. it won't function, it'll break, the build system won't actually let you do it...
<riteo>
most of the times the latest version (or hell, even the latest commit from a good repo) will be better than the previous
<dilyn>
i have no idea bout surf, but perhaps
<dilyn>
webkit is on oasis, no? i assume you can
<sad_plan>
dunno, I couldnt find it in his pkg repo atleast.
<sad_plan>
its not in there anyway as far as I can search for it anyway.
<sad_plan>
what was netsurf based on again? thats his browser anyway
<schillingklaus>
netsurf has its own libs
<sad_plan>
ah ok
<dilyn>
oasis uses netsurf
<dilyn>
always confuse those two because they're both so gross (:
<schillingklaus>
but without proper css and javascript support i do not see an advantage over lynx + external image viewer
<sad_plan>
does netsurf not provide such things?
<schillingklaus>
netsurf team shows attempts to do so, but they did not yet get very far
<sad_plan>
ah ok
<sad_plan>
dilyn: you used tinyalsa right? why'd you stop using it? was it not working properly? I was thinking about installing it as a replacement for alsa
<dilyn>
it doesn't work with chromium
<dilyn>
well, i say that
<dilyn>
it doesn't work 'out of the box' with chromium. though I imagine it's missing some stuff chromium wants
<sad_plan>
probably. how about other stuff? mpv, firefox? if youve tried those obviously :p
<dilyn>
no i had dropped mpv and firefox by that point
<sad_plan>
ah ok
<riteo>
Since minekiss seems to work fine now and the changes have been pushed to my cardboard server, I think it's finally time to pass out, expecially since I'm starting to see stuff moving on my screen...
<riteo>
Goodbye y'all!
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<sad_plan>
dilyn: are me moving to pax now, or is it not decided?
<schillingklaus>
what is this pax thing?
<dilyn>
we probably will
<sad_plan>
replacement for tar if im correct
<dilyn>
ideally we spend as little time in `kiss` as possible, and spend most of our time execing build. using pax and b3sum let us do that
<dilyn>
it's a more POSIX tar :)
<dilyn>
it has an actual standard, unlike tar
<sad_plan>
great
<dilyn>
the problem is it isn't nearly as ubiquitous
<dilyn>
i just finished 'building a new system' with all of those big patches (b3sum, dependency resolution, pax) and experienced *few* problems, but there's a blocker on at least two of those
<dilyn>
and the b3 utility has to be decided on
<dilyn>
the binary provided by $/BLAKE3-team is super fucking quick. by like, an order of magnitude over sh256
<dilyn>
but it's rust, so we have to use the binary. which... eh
<sad_plan>
increased speed is always welcommed :p
<dilyn>
though we could steal a b3sum.c from somewhere else :v
<sad_plan>
people here seems to have somewhat issues with rust, so im not sure everybody is on the boat with having rust in core though :p
<schillingklaus>
eeeeew rust is very bad
<sad_plan>
I personally dont care, but yeah
<sad_plan>
^my point exacly :p
<sad_plan>
and why do you belive rust is bad, while we're at it?:p
<schillingklaus>
rust is too monolithic and anti-unixish
<sad_plan>
talking about rust here, is like having a vegan at a party. you just know theyre gonna tell you about how theyre vegan
<sad_plan>
thats a new one for me^
<schillingklaus>
and centrally designed by an untrustworthy organization
<sad_plan>
why is it untrustworthy?
<dilyn>
because mozilla corp
<schillingklaus>
the abandon of xul shows that mozilla people are perverts
<sad_plan>
is moz the chieftain of rust? I wasnt aware
<Erus_Iluvatar>
Didn't they jump off the moz' ship
<Erus_Iluvatar>
At some point?
<Erus_Iluvatar>
For the biggest issue with rust is cargo
<sad_plan>
moz is still a member of the rust foundation anyway. so perhaps not
<sad_plan>
why is cargo so bad?
<zola>
Biggest problem with rust is that it takes half a day to compile
<sad_plan>
just deleted whole kiss dir in .cache, and issue was gone
<illiliti>
dilyn: thx
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<testuser[m]>
huh its working now i didnt change a single thing
<testuser[m]>
bruh
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<dilyn>
schrodinger's error
<sad_plan>
dilyn: is all of those whos not checked up for grabs..?
<dilyn>
checked just means it's set to be updated or it's fine
<dilyn>
anything >30 days is adoptable tho
<sad_plan>
ah ok. im just checking if theres anything im actually using myself, and there are some it seems. could possibly adopt some of those i suppose
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<testuser[m]>
whats a portable way to get all executable files with find ?
<testuser[m]>
-perm -111 -type f got it
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<sad_plan>
ok, so now what? are we supposed to go back to dylans repo now? what about kiss-community?
<soliwilos>
I think Dylan will say sooner or later.
<sad_plan>
I suppose so.
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<acheam>
dilyn: :(((
<acheam>
although I think its fine now because cem showed be how to remove the dep with some configure flags
<acheam>
so :)))
<acheam>
hmm I wonder how hard it would be to automate python package packaging
<acheam>
probably not very
<testuser[m]>
python packages are not worth packaging unless they provide an interface to a C library
<testuser[m]>
Cuz that's when you might need something other than python setup.py install
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<acheam>
yes I was thinking about something like numpy which is python bindings to a c library
<acheam>
or zeromq
<acheam>
although I have packaged the C part of the above
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<guest2141>
vis irc.c
<guest2141>
uups :)
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<msk_1411[m]>
There aren't any kiss-specific instructions for setting up ccache, are there? I just symlink ccache to gcc, g++, cc, and c++, as they say in their documentation?
<msk_1411[m]>
qt5-webengine has failed compiling the third(?) time and hopefully this will help
<testuser[m]>
check the post install , export PATH=/usr/lib/ccache/bin:$PATH
<testuser[m]>
is the failure OOM related ?
<msk_1411[m]>
dilyn said it was because I ran out of RAM
<testuser[m]>
did you reduce the number of make jobs
<msk_1411[m]>
I set MAKEFLAGS, NINJAFLAGS, and one other to his recommendation
<msk_1411[m]>
ccache is compiling so I can't check the history
<testuser[m]>
to how much ? you should try -j8 if you have 12 threads, instead of -j12
<msk_1411[m]>
nproc tells you how much you have, right? I set it it to -j2
<testuser[m]>
hmm j2 seems ok, how much ram ?
<msk_1411[m]>
because it outputted "4"
<testuser[m]>
are you building in tmpfs ? try building on regular storage
<msk_1411[m]>
I believe I have 6 GB
<msk_1411[m]>
he said to unset TMPFS or something similar, but I remember not having it set
<testuser[m]>
KISS_TMPDIR
<msk_1411[m]>
right, that's the one
<msk_1411[m]>
echo $KISS_TMPDIR was just a blank line, so I didn't think it was the issue
<msk_1411[m]>
ccache finished so I can see the command history
<testuser[m]>
btw in future you can do ctrl + z to suspend running commands, do your stuff and then do `fg` to resume
<thermatix>
any idea what performance is like on regolith?
<GalaxyNova>
thermatix: That's sowm
<midfavila>
thermatix:
<midfavila>
if you want something that "Just Werks:tm:" but is somewhat KISS-like,
<midfavila>
use CRUX Linux
<thermatix>
GalaxyNova It's not the wm I'm talking about, the look
<thermatix>
is what I'm on about
<midfavila>
the look is largely dictated by the window manager
<midfavila>
and in this case probably xresources
<midfavila>
just copy the colorscheme
<schillingklaus>
crux does not use musl
<midfavila>
musl is also the cause of a lot of "it doesn't Just Werk:tm:"
<GalaxyNova>
on that topic...
<GalaxyNova>
Is it possible to "switch" to glibc from musl
<midfavila>
i mean
<midfavila>
yes
<midfavila>
but
<midfavila>
it's not practical at all
<GalaxyNova>
or the other way around
<midfavila>
you would have to cross-compile your entire system
<midfavila>
which involves compiling a cross-compiler
<midfavila>
compiling a new compiler with the cross-compiler
<GalaxyNova>
basically LFS
<midfavila>
cross-compiling your toolchain
<midfavila>
yes
<midfavila>
exactly
<GalaxyNova>
oof
<midfavila>
cross-compilation makes me want to shoot myself
<midfavila>
i once had to figure out how to cross-compile from x86-64 gnu clib linux to ARM QNX
<midfavila>
that was...
<midfavila>
pain
<midfavila>
the end result was that I had a proper GNU coreutils setup on my phone, which was admittedly cool
<midfavila>
but the novelty wore off fairly quickly
<thermatix>
lol
<midfavila>
hmm. i wonder what a hardened kiss repo should be called...
<midfavila>
kiss-gloss, maybe
<schillingklaus>
i didn't see anything of note in void that worked in void-glibs but refused to work on void-musl
<GalaxyNova>
> DRM
<GalaxyNova>
> libasan
<midfavila>
>DRM
<midfavila>
>of note
<midfavila>
>implying
<midfavila>
smh
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<GalaxyNova>
lol
<GalaxyNova>
i really miss libasan
<thermatix>
I'm tempted to go with regolith because it's Ubuntu based and I mention that because Ubuntu just worked out of the box on my laptop when I Was trying to bootstrap kiss
<schillingklaus>
then I probably have little to no usage for drm
<GalaxyNova>
if you use spotify or netflix then it's pretty important
<thermatix>
and I do have a pretty beefy laptop
<midfavila>
stop using shitty services then, GalaxyNova
<GalaxyNova>
lol
<midfavila>
download your audio and video like a sane person
<thermatix>
:D
<GalaxyNova>
from pirate bay
<midfavila>
i mean, eys.
<midfavila>
yes*
<midfavila>
you go over to your friend's house and borrow his copy
<midfavila>
and by friend, I mean "Trusted Uploader"
<schillingklaus>
i do not use either. Is DRM digital restriction management?
<midfavila>
and by "friend's house", I mean an IP address originating from Russia
<midfavila>
yes, that's what DRM is, klaus
<GalaxyNova>
it's a binary that only works on glibc
<midfavila>
software designed to control the use and redistribution of other content
<midfavila>
because muh eyepee
<thermatix>
btw when you mentioned majaro did you mean manjaro awesome edition?
<midfavila>
eugh
<midfavila>
if you're going to use manjaro, just use artix
<thermatix>
oh and what is manjaro based on?
<midfavila>
arch
<midfavila>
manjaro is a word that means "I can't use pacman"
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<thermatix>
lol
<thermatix>
what package manager does it come with?
<midfavila>
uh, pacman.
<schillingklaus>
manjaro is based on calamares installer and systemd *vomit*
<midfavila>
but it provides a bunch of graphical tools
<thermatix>
but you jsut said manjaro is a word that means "I can't use pacman"
<GalaxyNova>
manjaro always breaks
<kimerus>
arch is a word to "I can't live whitout systemd"
<midfavila>
yes, and then followed it up with "it provides a bunch of graphical tools"
<thermatix>
don't be confusing
<midfavila>
learn to read
<midfavila>
smh
<midfavila>
fuckin normies in my channel
<thermatix>
how does graphical tools equate to pacman?
<thermatix>
bleh
<midfavila>
graphical frontend to pacman. like how ubuntu often includes graphical frontends to apt.
<thermatix>
it looks like regolith is what I'm going to go with
<testuser[m]>
Arch is pretty good for just werks , just use it directly
<GalaxyNova>
ubuntu's graphical frontend is also for snap
<midfavila>
how unbased can one distro be
<thermatix>
I could just install unix
<thermatix>
and be done with it XD
<midfavila>
i mean, sure, go for it
<midfavila>
illumos is free
<kimerus>
Install slack
<GalaxyNova>
illuminos ftw
<midfavila>
slackware is also a good distro
<GalaxyNova>
slackware is bloated
<kimerus>
But too old packages
<midfavila>
slackware is bloated if you install every single category of package, like a dumbass.
<kimerus>
kiss is bloated
<acheam>
maybe openbsd
<midfavila>
don't install three DEs and five WMs if you don't want it to be bloated.
<acheam>
depending on your hardware
<kimerus>
openbsd is big bloat
<GalaxyNova>
kiss is probably the most unbloated linux distribution
<acheam>
how so kimerus ?
<kimerus>
Just kidding
<midfavila>
p sure he's m-
<midfavila>
yeah
<GalaxyNova>
lol
<schillingklaus>
slackware enforces the usage of bash as bin/sh
<acheam>
GalaxyNova: nah thats probably oasis or something
<acheam>
ew
<kimerus>
how is openbsd compared to kiss in bloat?
<midfavila>
openbsd can't be compared
<acheam>
^
<midfavila>
BSD and Linux are two different ecosystems
<kimerus>
yeah i know is different aproach
<midfavila>
BSD is a monolithic package, whereas linux is just a kernel
<acheam>
Its a full operating system vs a package manager and some text files
<GalaxyNova>
kiss and OpenBSD seem pretty similar
<GalaxyNova>
in terms of goals
<acheam>
nah
<midfavila>
the chad full OS versus the virgin text files
<midfavila>
oBSD has nothing in common with KISS
<kimerus>
openbsd is more bloat so
<midfavila>
oBSD focuses on quality and security above all else
<midfavila>
KISS just focuses on being a meme minimalist hipster distro
<midfavila>
i still think KISS is less a distro and more a meta-distro
<thermatix>
KISS is a meta distro
<acheam>
ew emacs 28 requires gawk to build
<schillingklaus>
you can combine a kernelized*BSD with GNU userland (debian's and gentoo's GNU/k*bsd versions) or linux with mostly BSDish userland
<thermatix>
you have to build it yourself
<thermatix>
thus meta-distro
<thermatix>
like gentoo
<GalaxyNova>
acheam: If you use emacs then embrace GNU
<thermatix>
at least I think that's how works
<acheam>
no!
<midfavila>
eh... that's not really how I view meta-distros
<thermatix>
oh?
<midfavila>
meta-distros are systems that provide little functionality on their own, but can be layered on top of existing systems to enhance their capabilities
<micr0>
i wish kiss embraced being a meta-distro more by not customizing upstream defaults as much :)
<acheam>
was talking to galaxy Nova thermatix
<midfavila>
like nix, guix, etc
<midfavila>
micr0 KISS doesn't really customize upstream defaults..?
<midfavila>
not unless it's needed to build a package
<GalaxyNova>
mcr0: What kind of customization defaults are you talking about?
<midfavila>
now,
<midfavila>
if we're talking community,
<thermatix>
midfavila isn't that what kiss does?
<midfavila>
i could see where you were coming from
<GalaxyNova>
baselayout is pretty barebones and if you want you can uninstall it and set it up yourself
<micr0>
I could grep 'rm' /var/db/kiss/repos/**/build to get a sense
<midfavila>
oh, well, that's fair I guess
<midfavila>
but like
<midfavila>
just... fork it
<midfavila>
become the upstream
<testuser[m]>
Has it caused you issues on any pkg
<midfavila>
enforce your own defaults
<midfavila>
dunk on the normie redditors
<midfavila>
repeat
<micr0>
yeah, I'm just saying i'd rather not fork everything just to make it 'kiss, but respecting upstream'
<micr0>
hence 'I wish...'
<midfavila>
most stuff in core does respect upstream
<micr0>
its not hard though, i'll give the system that much
<midfavila>
the worst that happens is redundant files are removed
* midfavila
shrugs
<midfavila>
oh!
<midfavila>
that reminds me
<schillingklaus>
kiss can certainly be used with a big deal of openbsd userland
<midfavila>
can someone file an issue on github about the unifont package?
<thermatix>
I'm going with regolith
<midfavila>
its install script uses GNU extensions to install
<midfavila>
and therefore breaks on *base
<GalaxyNova>
micr0: upstream defaults are optimized for minimalism
<testuser[m]>
Who's script
<testuser[m]>
Oh
<midfavila>
the unifont install script. makefile or w/e
<testuser[m]>
konimex:
<micr0>
midfavila i just started looking through all of core/build files, so far, all of them change some upstream defaults
<midfavila>
would be very cool if that could be looked into. i imagine a simple sed could be used to fix it.
<micr0>
GalaxyNova yeah I am just saying I'd prefer 'defaults' over minimalism in a distro that embraces being a meta-distro
<micr0>
especially because the usual response is "its easy to customize"
<midfavila>
kiss doesn't embrace being meta
<midfavila>
kiss embraces minimalism
<midfavila>
if you want upstream defaults in a meta fashion, use bedrock
<micr0>
yeah, I know that
<midfavila>
bedrock is like the Mega Man of distros
<micr0>
I'm just pointing out what I'd like to see, not making an argument of what it is
<midfavila>
i'm responding with "here's two methods of having that wish fulfilled"
<midfavila>
:P
<acheam>
ach and emacs 28 also has a gnu extension in it
<acheam>
whyyy
<konimex>
so what's the error on installing gnu unifont?
<thermatix>
so if kiss isn't meta then how would you describe it?
<midfavila>
kiss *is* meta. it's just not *designed* as such.
<micr0>
i dont think its either/or. Seems more like a gradient.
<midfavila>
kiss' status as a meta distribution is merely a result of its goals.
<micr0>
thats a good way to put it
<midfavila>
konimex: it just freaks out and spews install usage info
<midfavila>
before failing
<GalaxyNova>
I like to think of kiss as a distribution that can be meta if you make it meta
<GalaxyNova>
but it provides upstream defaults
<midfavila>
i imagine it's an incompatible parameter in the Makefile
kimerus has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<midfavila>
when I think of "upstream defaults", I think of shit like including a distro-specific set of themes, or forcing you to use the package in a specific way
<testuser[m]>
acheam: it's a sign to abandon emacs
<konimex>
using suckless sbase? I'll see what I can do tomorrow
<midfavila>
yeah, s/u/9base
<micr0>
GalaxyNova I personally avoid making the claim that kiss, out of the box, respects upstream. It sets up expectations that are surprising when not fulfilled.
<midfavila>
like what?
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<acheam>
testuser[m]: the whole reason I'm building emacs 28 is so I can use emacs-webkit and abandon everything but emacs lol
<midfavila>
absolutely
<midfavila>
C R I N G E
<testuser[m]>
Bruh
<GalaxyNova>
micr0: what expectations are not fufilled?
<akira01>
u are going in the DT way
<acheam>
cem: have you built emacs 28?
<micr0>
midfavila when I use the word upstream, I mean the software writers as upstream, not distro maintainers. Didn't make that clear.
<schillingklaus>
has emacs-webkit not been abandoned?
<midfavila>
acheam will you use exwm
<GalaxyNova>
if you want to modify a package just use kiss-fork and customize the options as you like
<midfavila>
micr0 yes, I know
<acheam>
schillingklaus: it looks like it has a bit, last significant commit 7 months ago
<micr0>
Ahh k, yeah so I don't see distro-specific themes as part of upstream
<midfavila>
i fail to see how KISS imposes defaults that can't be overridden.
<akira01>
someone had tested swc and velox?
<micr0>
Never claimed that.
<acheam>
midfavila: no
<midfavila>
then it shouldn't much be a problem...
<schillingklaus>
Michael Forney has tested them... probably even invented
<acheam>
I dont like how emacs handles splits, id rather use seperate windows managed by my window manager
<acheam>
over exwm
<GalaxyNova>
someone should make a window manager like exwm but for vim
<acheam>
akira01: dilyn likely has
<micr0>
My only wish is that the out-of-box builds are as upstream default-as-possible, letting everyone customize for whatever their needs are. Just having a known set of defaults, as opposed to having to fork to meet a baseline set by the project.
<midfavila>
some day I'd like to write my own EMACS implementation
<noocsharp>
akira01: i have it installed, but i don't daily drive it
<GalaxyNova>
micr0: Problem is upstream defaults are not always the most minimal they can be
<midfavila>
GNUmacs has a lot of junk that I dislike
<acheam>
GalaxyNova: I dont think thats possible with how vim works, it would need to build a lot on top of vi
<acheam>
m
<midfavila>
man
<acheam>
midfavila: yeah
<micr0>
GalaxyNova: and neither are the current build scripts, they could certainly be more minimal.
<midfavila>
i hate when people call vim "minimal"
<acheam>
midfavila: what editor are you using now?
<midfavila>
tine
<midfavila>
emacs is only used when I write lisp programs
<midfavila>
or when I work with XPM files
<midfavila>
etc
<schillingklaus>
nvi is more kissish
<micr0>
GalaxyNova: Also, I don't see it as a problem that upstream defaults are not always the most minimal, seeing as its easy to fork packages.
<akira01>
midfavila: so what are more minimal than vim?
<thermatix>
why was Rufus designed to wipe the entire USB when unetbootin just does it to the relevant partition
<GalaxyNova>
vi
<thermatix>
ed
<midfavila>
literally anything akira01
<micr0>
neovim
<midfavila>
ed, tine, vi, etc
<thermatix>
lol
<midfavila>
i wouldn't say neovim is minimal...
<thermatix>
lol
<thermatix>
opposit
<micr0>
Just asked whats more minimal than vim
<midfavila>
if your editor has a *package manager*, it's not minimal
<GalaxyNova>
micr0: If you want to fork the packages anyway what does it matter what the default options are
<schillingklaus>
joe
<testuser[m]>
akira01: noocsharp i think
<midfavila>
joe is alright, but the multiple editing modes are a bit much
<testuser[m]>
Oh they replied already
<GalaxyNova>
midfavila: neovim does not have a package manager
<midfavila>
does it not? my bad then.
<acheam>
yes it does
<GalaxyNova>
it doesn't
<thermatix>
but you can add one
<micr0>
GalaxyNova: No disagreement there. I just think most people don't want to fork packages, that is precisely when defaults matter.
<GalaxyNova>
you have to install it
<midfavila>
"It does!"
<midfavila>
"It doesn't!"
<midfavila>
kiss linux is truly a hall of intellectuals
<thermatix>
XD
<midfavila>
micr0 most KISS regulars maintain their own repo, you know
<acheam>
does it not come with packages?
<acheam>
:help packages
<GalaxyNova>
no?
<micr0>
midfavila no way!
<midfavila>
uh, yes way
<micr0>
/ s
<acheam>
or maybe that's a vim 8 thing
<GalaxyNova>
it has packages
<GalaxyNova>
not a package manager
<GalaxyNova>
there's a difference
<midfavila>
that just sounds like a mess.
<acheam>
that is a package manager as far as I'm concerned
<GalaxyNova>
it doesn't manage the packages for you
<acheam>
it manager their loading thats all it needs to do
<midfavila>
if it handles installation, removal, and loading of packages, it's a package manager
<micr0>
Sorry for being snarky but like, I'd be surprised if the majority of the packages in people's personal repos are forks of packages in core/community/extra, versus new unpackaged stuff
<acheam>
I'm sure your capable of tunning git pull, rm, etc
<GalaxyNova>
midfavila: It doesn't handle any of that
<GalaxyNova>
you can download packages and place them in a folder
<GalaxyNova>
that's it
<acheam>
micr0: yeah many of mine are forks
<midfavila>
micr0 a lot of folks do fork community/ or repo/ packages and tweak them
<midfavila>
add things like LTO, or PGO, or add or remove configure parameters
<micr0>
midfavila but I get your point, that most kiss users know and do fork packages, so defaults shouldnt matter as much
<midfavila>
i personally fork stuff just to slow its release interval down
<midfavila>
updating my system every second day is a pain
<testuser[m]>
midfavila did you turn the axel arguments for kiss into a patch yet
<midfavila>
i haven't, sorry
<micr0>
Would be cool if it was less painful, but yeah, thats a good use for forking
<midfavila>
once my laptop is running again, I'll start work on making KISS downloader-agnostic
<GalaxyNova>
> downloader-agnostic
<GalaxyNova>
what does that mean?
<midfavila>
the ability to swap downloaders the same way you do privilege escalators
<midfavila>
KISS_DLER or something
<midfavila>
use curl, wget, aria2c, axel, snarf...
<midfavila>
w/e
<midfavila>
...actually, aria2c would present a fascinating opportunity for a torrent-based package manage
<midfavila>
manager*
<midfavila>
hmm...
<midfavila>
now *that* would be one hell of a gimmick
<GalaxyNova>
that sounds interesting
<micr0>
Just for fun? Or like, resilience?
<acheam>
quick analysis shows 22/52 of my packages are forks
<acheam>
or at least have the same name of packages in other repos
<micr0>
acheam - whats the most common reason for the forks?
<midfavila>
micr0 I imagine resilience
<acheam>
configure options
<midfavila>
we've already run into issues like what happened with youtube-dl
<micr0>
acheam I mean like, is there any theme to the options you add or remove?
<midfavila>
having everyone seed the source for packages would also dramatically improve download speed
<acheam>
I also dont like builds that change based on what you have installed
<midfavila>
micr0 it depends on the user
<micr0>
like hardware support, removing unused features, etc
<acheam>
so I forked MPV to add a hard lua dependency, etc
<midfavila>
i like to strip out options that introduce software developed primarily by corporations, and to force GTK2 usage, personally
<micr0>
yeah im just curious how different kiss users customize their installs, usually learn something by asking that way
<acheam>
disabled unused features in webkit2gtk, kept some directory's that the python package rm's
<micr0>
midfavila thats cool
<midfavila>
most of us are open to discussing that, so ask away
<acheam>
no real theme that I can see
<testuser[m]>
I've only forked stuff to add ayyland support or build with extra optimizations
<midfavila>
gayland
<midfavila>
smh
<GalaxyNova>
ayyland
<midfavila>
call me in ten years when it can handle screen recording properly
<micr0>
i remember exherbo linux had really good package manager support for like, licenses. you could enable/disable options with -license:gpl or +license:mit or whatever and it would filter the packages that way
<GalaxyNova>
midfavila: OBS now supports wayland natively
<midfavila>
micr0 that's interesting.
<acheam>
gentoo has that too micr0
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<acheam>
but its gentoo.....
<akira01>
I love gentoo
<midfavila>
but I'm less concerned with pure licenses and more "am I allowing facebook to control a critical aspect of my system"
<testuser[m]>
midfavila: doesn't poopwire work?
<GalaxyNova>
gentoo is not minimal
<akira01>
Probably go back to it
<testuser[m]>
For screen sharing
<midfavila>
like, for example,
<midfavila>
dilyn is a total zstd apologist
<akira01>
but still more minimal than arch
<GalaxyNova>
eh
<midfavila>
and I'm completely against even *considering* installing zstd, for any reason
<akira01>
I just need some shit that work with steam and are mininal
<micr0>
midfavila yeah your use case is much more subtle but I think theres a lot of room for experimenting with the package manager itself
<midfavila>
oh, there absolutely is, micr0
<acheam>
midfavila: but the speeeeeeeeeds
<midfavila>
i've suggested we add a "kiss patches" section to the wiki multiple times
<midfavila>
acheam use lz4
<acheam>
zstd goes zoom
<GalaxyNova>
akira01: Gentoo has 2 coreutils installed, depends on bash, perl, python to work correctly
<micr0>
early when I started using kiss, i wrote kiss-description to play around with extending metadata
<midfavila>
lz4 has some of the fastest compression and decompression around
<noocsharp>
midfavila: using zstd is just using software developed at facebook, it doesn't give facebook control of your system
<midfavila>
noocsharp and if I use LTO?
<midfavila>
now zstd is a crucial element
<acheam>
I need to look into LTO
<midfavila>
or if I use zstd in the kernel?
<midfavila>
now it's a crucial element
<midfavila>
etc
<micr0>
and like, kiss-log to basically give me a summary of 'whats happened in kiss-repos'
<midfavila>
i'm not giving facebook an inch in my kernel
<noocsharp>
yes, but facebook still doesn't control your system
<GalaxyNova>
midfavila: that's like not working with react because it was developed by facebook
<GalaxyNova>
it's OSS
<acheam>
midfavila: lz4 isnt as good at compressing though
<akira01>
GalaxyNova: well but is not systemd and little costom
<midfavila>
if react was developed by facebook, I wouldn't touch it
<midfavila>
but web frameworks are stupid anyway
<testuser[m]>
I'll take arch over gentoo any time
<midfavila>
and you shouldn't use them
<acheam>
testuser[m]: really why?
<midfavila>
develop a unique style for your site, create a template for it, and go from there
<midfavila>
actually be creative for once, idk
* midfavila
shrugs
<GalaxyNova>
midfavila: it was developed by facebook...
<acheam>
frameworks aren't templates mid
<testuser[m]>
portage is an absolute abomination
<midfavila>
yes, I know, acheam
<midfavila>
GalaxyNova well, I wasn't going to touch it anyway, but now I definitely won't.
<acheam>
well your argument was about design
<noocsharp>
unlike instagram, zstd is a technology used internally at facebook, so you can trust that it doesn't suck too badly
<midfavila>
it's not about suckage
<akira01>
portage is fine for me prefer kiss but what can i do if i cant run my games
<GalaxyNova>
midfavila: That's like not using github because it's owned by microsoft
<midfavila>
lmao
<noocsharp>
GalaxyNova: yes
<midfavila>
why do you think I don't use shithub
<acheam>
GalaxyNova: not a super strong argument lol
<GalaxyNova>
lol
<noocsharp>
actually no it's not at all GalaxyNova
<midfavila>
only reason I technically have an account is because it's frozen and I can't delete it
<acheam>
hurts you if anything
<acheam>
and noocsharp is right
<noocsharp>
github is a proprietary platform, zstd isn't
<acheam>
^
<midfavila>
again,
<midfavila>
it's not about licensing
<midfavila>
it's about
<midfavila>
"wow this megacorp controls an important aspect of my system"
<noocsharp>
in what way do they control it?
<midfavila>
they literally develop it.
<midfavila>
they direct development of it.
<noocsharp>
that's not control
<testuser[m]>
You hate redhat too right midfavila
<midfavila>
yes, I do.
<testuser[m]>
Don't they control gcc
<GalaxyNova>
midfavila: clang/llvm is developed by apple
<midfavila>
in large part, red hat does exert influence over elements of GNU, but based on my understanding of things they don't exert the same control over GCC as facebook does zstd
<GalaxyNova>
are you not gonna use that either?
<acheam>
he doesnt use clang
<midfavila>
but
<midfavila>
for the record
<midfavila>
if I had the option to use something like cproc or tcc
<midfavila>
i would
<midfavila>
but between GNU and Apple
<acheam>
I think we all would
<midfavila>
I'll choose GNU any day
<noocsharp>
i trust facebook not to make zstd suck because it is in their interest not to make it suck
<midfavila>
it's not about that!
<midfavila>
fuck
<midfavila>
i'm not going to continue repeating myself
<noocsharp>
therefore facebook and my interests align
<noocsharp>
also at any point i can choose to remove zstd from my system
<GalaxyNova>
midfavila: except llvm is needed to build xorg-server iirc
<midfavila>
no
<midfavila>
it's needed for mesa
<midfavila>
and even then,
<midfavila>
afaik,
<midfavila>
only for AMDGPU backend
<GalaxyNova>
which is needed for xorg-server
<midfavila>
no
<midfavila>
it's not
<midfavila>
you don't need 3d acceleration for the X server
<midfavila>
it runs just fine with 2d acceleration
<midfavila>
shit, I don't think it even needs acceleration
<midfavila>
X is shockingly versatile
<noocsharp>
well i think any window system should be able to do software rendering...
<noocsharp>
that's like a core requirement
<midfavila>
can wayland compositors handle it?
<midfavila>
legitimate question
<noocsharp>
yes...
<noocsharp>
swc uses wld which has a pixman backend
* midfavila
shrugs
<kqz>
wlroots recently got a pixman backend as well
<kqz>
also llvmpipe
<noocsharp>
again, wayland says nothing about rendering: it's literally just a protocol
<midfavila>
yes, I know
GalaxyNova has quit [Quit: WeeChat 3.2]
<midfavila>
hence why I said "wayland compositors", and not "wayland"
<midfavila>
i'm aware that wayland isn't a monolithic system like X
<midfavila>
...although given everyone just uses wlroots, it might as well be...
<noocsharp>
swc exists
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<midfavila>
tcc exists
<midfavila>
that doesn't mean people use it.
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<noocsharp>
true
<midfavila>
what *exists* doesn't matter
<midfavila>
what's standard matters
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<noocsharp>
depends on what you want
<midfavila>
it's like how truth isn't reality, it's what the majority believes
<noocsharp>
if you want something to use personally, what everyone else uses doesn't matter
<akira01>
swc can be minimal as xorg?
<noocsharp>
swc is way more minimal than xorg
<noocsharp>
the whole thing is ~8k SLOC
<akira01>
I mean in ram
<midfavila>
software minimalism is such a nebulous concept, at this point...
<midfavila>
i should write my own definition and host it on my site
<noocsharp>
i haven't tested, but i would imagine it's lighter on ram
<midfavila>
that would be fairly impressive.
<akira01>
yeah
<midfavila>
X11 can operate in low-RAM environs without much trouble.
<noocsharp>
my pinephone uses around 150MB with my wayland compositor open, not sure how much of it is from the compositor
<midfavila>
150mb, yeesh.
<akira01>
impressive
<midfavila>
i can usually get an X session and a browser with 80-ish on my laptop
<midfavila>
of course, once you start opening GTK programs, that becomes a different story...
<akira01>
I can't
<akira01>
my system with just xorg and sowm get 150mb
<akira01>
had to compile 2 gpu drivers
<midfavila>
i've noticed that the X server's RAM usage changes depending on the amount of RAM in the host system
<midfavila>
or perhaps the resolution, the latter would make more sense.
<midfavila>
my laptop's screen res is quite low, especially compared to my desktop...
<acheam>
hmm to ditch busybox or not, that is my question of the day
<midfavila>
use *base
<midfavila>
dew it
<acheam>
nah I'd use the freebsd user land if I were to switch
<midfavila>
the worst of the BSDs
<acheam>
they all have very similar userlands
<akira01>
yeah
<noocsharp>
looks like my wayland compositor uses around 30MB
<acheam>
you can diff many files in the openbsd userland source tree and the freebsd one and find +/- just a few lines
<midfavila>
those few lines in oBSD are all it needs to be superior
* midfavila
nods
<noocsharp>
didn't someone package obsd userland?
<midfavila>
i believe so
<acheam>
Dylan uses ut
<acheam>
it
<midfavila>
doesn't dylan use i-
<midfavila>
yeah
<acheam>
but the linux port is much less complete than the freebsd user land port I'm looking at
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<acheam>
oh wait this thing depends on openssl
<noocsharp>
oof
<midfavila>
try building it anyway.
<midfavila>
i've got software that "depends" on openssl running against libre.
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<midfavila>
speaking of alternatives, is anyone aware of a half-decent non-GNU sed that can be used on its own?
<midfavila>
similar in spirit to gavin's bc
<midfavila>
i'd like to use suckless sed or plan 9's sed, but both break with most of our packages...
<acheam>
you need -I?
<acheam>
-i*
<noocsharp>
this wouldn't be a problem is we used templeos
<acheam>
cem: any pointers for using wolf/bear SSL?
<midfavila>
-i isn't the problem
<midfavila>
it's a lack of support for extensions in the command language used by a lot of makefiles
<noocsharp>
i thought carbs just uses libressl now
<midfavila>
also, if we could set wolfssl up in kiss, that would be awesome
<midfavila>
i'd totally work on that
<midfavila>
tried it before, I ended up running into issues or something... can't remember why i stopped
<noocsharp>
bear > wolf
<midfavila>
isn't bear just intended for embedded systems?
<midfavila>
wolf is supposedly more secure, since it meets the FIPS200 standard or whatever.
<noocsharp>
so is wolf
<midfavila>
sure, but between the two, wouldn't the higher-security library be superior?
<noocsharp>
i think bear is smaller than wolf in code size, and i trust mcf's judgement
<midfavila>
bear is also in beta...
<midfavila>
so...
<noocsharp>
i mean it's oasis' provider and seems to work well
<midfavila>
can stuff like browsers compile against it without much issue?
<noocsharp>
lmao nope
<midfavila>
not even links?
<noocsharp>
well mcf made a libtls shim over bearssl
<noocsharp>
so if something works with libtls it can work with bearssl
<noocsharp>
unfortunately nothing works with libtls
<noocsharp>
you have to patch everything
<noocsharp>
i think curl has upstream support tho
<midfavila>
curl supports bearssl
<noocsharp>
also msmtp supports libtls
<noocsharp>
but no browsers afaik
<midfavila>
wowee, now I can send email(?)
<midfavila>
from my router
<midfavila>
...actually, I think my router can already do that, lmao
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<acheam>
noocsharp: yes it uses libre now but I figured he'd still have some pointers given how much hes played with it
<noocsharp>
i'd go look at oasis' patches
<noocsharp>
i don't think you'll get very far without libtls-bearssl either
<noocsharp>
also what in freebsd userland requires openssl?
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<acheam>
not in the freebsd user land itself just this port
<acheam>
it has a ton of other crap in it, I'm giving up on it
* midfavila
pushes acheam towards *base
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<acheam>
sell me on it mid
<noocsharp>
*base is great if you don't use them
<midfavila>
smaller than busybox, includes most common utilities, static linking is ezpz
<noocsharp>
or you don't have to interact with software specifically not designed to be used with them
<midfavila>
i've only run into issues with unifont installation while using *base
<midfavila>
although I do supplement it with libarchive, otawk, and a few other standalone tools like pagers and editors
<midfavila>
as well as GNU sed, since a lot of programs seem to rely on GNU extensions to the command language...
<midfavila>
which is fucking annoying
<midfavila>
now that I'm looking at kiss, it should be trivial to implement download utility agnosticism...
<midfavila>
will start working on the patch soon
<midfavila>
gonna make some tea and lunch first
<midfavila>
well, technically breakfast, but
<acheam>
isnt it just used in one place?
<acheam>
should be easy enough just to replace it with a shell expansion defaulting to curl
<acheam>
dude, eat
<acheam>
Its 310
<acheam>
breakfast is good
<dilyn>
the hard part is if curl and axel don't share options
<dilyn>
just use toybox
<midfavila>
that's not hard at all
<midfavila>
just provide arguments that get the same result. I've already been using axel in place of curl for months
<midfavila>
rn I'm repurposing the bit of script that handles escalator detection
<noocsharp>
escalator?
<midfavila>
privilege escalation utilties
<midfavila>
like su, ssu, doas, sudo
<noocsharp>
oh
<noocsharp>
not like moving stairs
<midfavila>
no
<midfavila>
that's in the next patch
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<cem>
acheam: I mean bearssl is sufficient for the base, but you'll end up depending on libressl for lots of things out of it anyway
<acheam>
hmm that's a shame
<acheam>
any way of using Python without libressl?
<cem>
You can build without ssl support :^)
<acheam>
okay
<cem>
The build system just doesn't build the ssl module if you don't have libressl installed
<acheam>
oh nicr
<cem>
Which is a-okay for most of the core packages, I guess
<acheam>
just wasn't sure if it uses SSL anywhere else
<cem>
I personally didn't notice that it was missing until I tried rtv, the reddit tui
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<acheam>
should I go for wolf or bear?
<acheam>
carbs has used both, right?
<cem>
Isn't wolf just another openssl fork, or am I remembering wrong?
<thermatix>
wolfbear
<dilyn>
we'll havea hard time with python 3.10 afaik
<cem>
I no longer use bearssl, I kind of decided that it was pointless to have two ssl libraries when I could have one
<acheam>
ye
<acheam>
guess I'll stick to libressl and go back to finding a good user land
<cem>
dilyn: python 3.10 was the "we only support openssl go cry somewhere else" update?
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<dilyn>
mmhmm
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<thermatix>
hey again
<thermatix>
I asked on linux but no response so I'll ask here I'm trying to install regolith but I'm getting this: [ end Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(2, 0) ] - - -
<thermatix>
is it a corrupted live CD?
<cem>
Are you booting from the live CD, or did you install whatever you were installing?
<cem>
Seems like you either didn't build the right drivers for your filesystem, or you have a faulty /etc/fstab
<thermatix>
I just used unetbootin with the ISO
<thermatix>
on to a usb
<thermatix>
I dare not use rufus as I do'nt want to format the whole usb stick as I have a seperate partition I want to keep
<thermatix>
don't*
<thermatix>
wait does rufus touch the whole disk or just the partition?
<midfavila>
you have to format the entire disk.
<midfavila>
save the data you want to keep, format it, and reflash your image.
<midfavila>
this is non-optional.
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<micr0_>
isnt there some other boot usb that you just throw whatever isos you want on it, and it presents a menu of each iso?
<midfavila>
yes, but it still requires you initially format it
<midfavila>
i believe it uses syslinux
<micr0_>
i think its called ventoy?
<midfavila>
correct
<micr0_>
What should i do if kiss b libudev-zero errors out with `cp: not writing through dangling symlink`
<micr0_>
i tried switching from libudev-zero to eudev with kiss alternatives, but that doesn't work
<micr0_>
well, doesn't fix the error
<midfavila>
good news, everyone - the patch to add support for other download tools is about done. not sure if I'll be able to get wget running right off the bat, but axel and aria2c both work swimmingly
<midfavila>
dilyn: should download diagnostics be quiet by default?
<dilyn>
ask dylan
<thermatix>
anyone stoked about the nvim 0.5 release?
<cem>
I sometimes forget that I own a mouse and also rarely ever touch the trackpad
<cem>
Anyway, I talk shit on this channel because everyone talks shit on this channel and I don't actually have an opinion on mouse usage
<cem>
Or wms
<msk_1411[m]>
I like to disable my track pad so that I have to use the keyboard
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<trunc88>
i get tty permission errors when trying to start x on sbase/ubase
<cem>
msk_1411[m]: I mean I really rarely require the trackpad, but not as little as to disable it entirely
<cem>
Don't you use a browser?
<midfavila>
>he doesn't navigate the web using his keyboard
<msk_1411[m]>
On qutebrowser I can use "f" to click links without the mouse
<cem>
Oh qutebrowser okay
<msk_1411[m]>
unfortunately nobody has packaged it on kiss and I'm having a painful time setting it up
<cem>
Didn't somebody have a package of that?
<cem>
I vaguely recall something along those lines
<msk_1411[m]>
In Nov 2020 it was dropped
<cem>
Ah alright
<msk_1411[m]>
the maintainer switched browsers
<cem>
I always found qute to be really slow
* midfavila
groans
<msk_1411[m]>
slower than Chromium?
<midfavila>
alright
<midfavila>
that email is sent
<midfavila>
if anything bad happens, I'm blaming you, dilyn
<cem>
idk, i switched to webkit after qutebrowser
<dilyn>
blame yourself lad you drafted the patch
<cem>
But the speed was comparable with firefox
<midfavila>
you put me up to emailing him >:V
<cem>
I never used chromium myself
<msk_1411[m]>
I found webkit (e.g. surf) much slower than qutebrowser's qt5-webengine
<midfavila>
surf is slow because...
<cem>
My experience was quite the opposite
<midfavila>
well, it's surf.
<cem>
I switched to surf because it was so fucking fast
<dilyn>
^
<msk_1411[m]>
did you use qutebrowser back when it had webkit by default?
<cem>
Nope
<cem>
I mean, it might be that Python is so fucking slow on my computer
<midfavila>
i-i-i-i-it doesn't m-m-matter that Python is slow!
<cem>
And it's an entire browser in Python
<msk_1411[m]>
Most of the 'heavy lifting' is done by qt5-webengine, which is in C++
<midfavila>
not if you use webkit.
<msk_1411[m]>
I don't think qutebrowser supports webkit anymore, or it's considered legacy if it does
<midfavila>
it does, it's just not default.
<cem>
Here is the thing, my computer's hdd is immensely slow
<midfavila>
my suggestion:
<midfavila>
get an ssd
<msk_1411[m]>
yeah, it makes a huge difference
<midfavila>
also
<midfavila>
found the problem CFLAG
<midfavila>
it was -fexceptions
<midfavila>
which is entirely within my expectations
<cem>
Yeah, well I'm kind of trying to bury this laptop as soon as I can
<midfavila>
get a cf-c2 or thinkpad
<midfavila>
...well, any toughbook, really. the cf-c2 is just a nice subnotebook
<cem>
hdd is not half of my problem
<msk_1411[m]>
thinkpads don't require any firmware blobs, do they?
<midfavila>
that depends on the GPU and installed cards
<midfavila>
my toughbook doesn't require blobs and it has a neutered ME, which is a huge reason why I like it
<riteo>
oh right, it has intel
<midfavila>
AMD has the PSP, so
<midfavila>
morally, both major x86 vendors are equivalent
<msk_1411[m]>
"A firmware blob for INTEL Centrino Advanced-N 6205 is necessary." for x230 I see
<midfavila>
replace it
<midfavila>
use an ath9k chip
<midfavila>
they're like fifteen bucks on ebay
<riteo>
arent intel processor quite shittier than AMD's or does that apply only to newer processors?
<midfavila>
that's never been the case
<midfavila>
amd runs hotter and uses more power, and has inferior single-core performance, on average
<midfavila>
i've also heard they're fussy about memory
<midfavila>
intel runs more stably, tends to be more efficient, and has superior single core performance, on average
<midfavila>
tl;dr
<midfavila>
if you want raw power and/or bang for your buck, at least in the short term, amd is the better choice
<midfavila>
but if you run mostly single-threaded programs, like games, intel is probably better.
<midfavila>
of course, there are exceptions to these rules on both sides
<riteo>
I see
<midfavila>
also, muh nanometers is a meme.
<midfavila>
that is all.
<midfavila>
on that note, it is tea time.
<riteo>
anyways it's not like I got any other choice regarding solid laptops
<riteo>
epic
<dilyn>
mid's knowledge is founded on facts from the bulldozer era :v
<riteo>
what do you mean?
<riteo>
is it regarding intel vs amd?
<dilyn>
yeah
<riteo>
so amd is actually less shitty than intel nowadays?
<dilyn>
amd cpus are basically the superior option by every matrix since zen2
<dilyn>
s/matrix/metric
<midfavila>
you're fairly dismissive, dilyn. even looking at specs, it's a reasonable conclusion.
<midfavila>
amd is certainly a formidable chipmaker, but they're not superior in every which way, just like how intel has never been superior in every which way.
<dilyn>
I'm not being dismissive, I'm saying that your criticisms are outdated
<midfavila>
i've yet to see proof of it.
<dilyn>
intel was alsmost exclusively superior from pentium 4 to like, coffee lake
<midfavila>
if you can provide that, and have a reasonable discussion, then I'm fine with that. but if you're going to act the way you usually do, I'm not interested.
<midfavila>
and no, that's also not true.
<dilyn>
lol
<midfavila>
AMD's almost always had a higher corecount.
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<midfavila>
in situations that take advantage of that, they're superior. in situations that don't, they lose that edge.
<riteo>
actually looking online the multi vs single core thing is true
<riteo>
intels are faster in the single core domain, while amd in multi core
<riteo>
that looks actually reasonable
<midfavila>
it's almost like I'm *not* a complete dumbass and deserve to be taken seriously in technical conversations.
<midfavila>
who would have thought?
<riteo>
I took you seriously though
<midfavila>
wasn't directed at you, riteo
<trunc88>
hey midfavila could you help me out? I think you were talking about sbase earlier
<midfavila>
sure. what sort of issues are you running into?
<midfavila>
in advance my replies might be a little slower than usual, I'm making dinner
<trunc88>
im getting "xf86OpenConsole: Cannot open virtual console 1 (Permission denied)" when i try to start x with sx on sbase/ubase
<trunc88>
no problem
<trunc88>
"parse_vt_settings: Cannot open /dev/tty0 (Permission denied)" if i try to use startx
<midfavila>
oh, I run into that too. it's not related to *base as far as I'm aware. just use chown root:video /dev/tty{1,7};chmod 0770 /dev/tty{1,7}
<midfavila>
that should set the permissions to something that will allow X to start
<midfavila>
those commands change the group of tty1 and 7 to video, and the chmod allows group members to read, write, and "execute" the file, same as root.
<midfavila>
if you're using kiss multi-user, should probably set it to your user's group and owner, instead.
<trunc88>
cool thanks. I've only experienced it when trying to switch to *base and fixed it by switching back to busybox
<trunc88>
so it seems related in some way
<midfavila>
hmm. maybe, then
<midfavila>
i'll try it some time
<acheam>
has anyone used sdhcp?
<acheam>
by 2f30
<trunc88>
i've been planning to try it but haven't gotten around to it yet
<acheam>
a full suckless distro would be kind of cool
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<kayw>
is it a good idea to use `make localyesconfig` when making the kernel config?
<msk_1411[m]>
I've used it a few times and it always made a working, bootable configuration
<msk_1411[m]>
but I believe it won't be as minimal as you might like
<kayw>
that's fine, this is my first time compiling the kernel
<kayw>
i just want to get something that boots
<noocsharp>
acheam: i use it on my phone with oasis
<kayw>
i'll go from there
<msk_1411[m]>
are you using the Arch ISO?
<kayw>
yea, i am
<msk_1411[m]>
come back if you run into anything weird while doing it
<msk_1411[m]>
sometimes it's not obvious what you have to do to remove one of the warnings
<kayw>
will do
<kayw>
i'm planning to use the latest LTS kernel so i hope that doesn't mess anything up. i think it shouldn't.
<msk_1411[m]>
5.10.47? I think I remember some kind of error during compilation on that one, but that might have been my fault
<kayw>
yep, that's the one
<msk_1411[m]>
I've used 5.12.13 (after applying dilyn's sed patch) and it was successful every time, so try that one if 5.10.47 doesn't work out
<kayw>
0 clue why i would be missing a file? it's a fresh install
<kayw>
like, i grabbed the kiss chroot release from the 1st
<kayw>
im gonna try rebuilding everything
<msk_1411[m]>
hey, sorry, I was in the shower
<msk_1411[m]>
I'm not sure what gmp.h is
<msk_1411[m]>
apparently that's part of libgmp3-dev?
<kayw>
i'll try installing that after everything rebuilds
<msk_1411[m]>
there's a package in community called "gmp", maybe you'll need that one
<msk_1411[m]>
I didn't see libgmp3-dev
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<acheam>
noocsharp: how does it compare with dhcpcd?
<midfavila>
i have a suggestion
<midfavila>
that suggestion is to just not use a dhcp daemon
<acheam>
what would you use instead for connecting to random networks?
<acheam>
just choosing a random IP?
<midfavila>
choose an arbitrarily high IP
<midfavila>
shockingly, most networks don't have anything on 234
<soliwilos>
iwd has dhcp functionality built-in, in cases of wireless networks.
<noocsharp>
the whole freaking point of dhcp is you don't have to take that chance
<noocsharp>
acheam: i mean, it's a dhcp daemon
<midfavila>
that doesn't make dhcp not superfluous.
<midfavila>
it's not *needed*
<midfavila>
it's purely quality of life.
<noocsharp>
of course, but if i'm connecting my phone to a wifi network, i don't want to poke at ip addresses
<noocsharp>
i just want it to connect
<midfavila>
hence "use anarbitrarily high IP address"
<midfavila>
an arbitrarily*
<midfavila>
my C programming is affecting my English, christ
<midfavila>
anyway
<midfavila>
like I said, I've never run into a network that has any devices using an address of 234 in the fourth octet
<midfavila>
and if it is, like... oh no, you have to spend a second to change it. probably take less time than to automatically detect an available address.
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<noocsharp>
how do you detect if an ip is already in use?
<midfavila>
>can't connect, check logs
<noocsharp>
hmm... if only there was a way where the network would tell you which ip address to use to avoid doing that dance
<midfavila>
hmm. if only people could read logs, then such a protocol wouldn't be needed......
<noocsharp>
yes, i'll tell my grandmother to just read the logs
<midfavila>
unironically yes.
<midfavila>
teaching people how to use tools without relying on automatic services is a good idea.
<midfavila>
if they can't learn, they can't use them.
<midfavila>
simple as.
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<kayw>
msk_1411[m]: well that helped but now i'm missing something else. "mpc.h"
<midfavila>
libmpc
<kayw>
which is in the community
<midfavila>
and if you're building a kernel, also install mpfr
<kayw>
oh that did it, it's building!
<midfavila>
:+1:
<midfavila>
yeah, that tripped me up at first, too
<kayw>
dunno why it's not included in the install guide
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<GalaxyNova>
midfavila: do you play any video games
<midfavila>
Yes, sometimes. I have a seperate network-isolated machine for media.
<GalaxyNova>
what games
<midfavila>
Project M, as of late. Rivals of Aether, as well. I'm a fan of the Zachtronics edutainment games, too.
<midfavila>
Caves of Qud is nice, and so is... god, I can't recall its name off the top of my head, but it's a game meant to mimic 80s-era action platformers.