<midfavila-laptop>
but i'm a complete dumbass so I don't actually know
<noocsharp>
it's entirely possible that it's only ever been bootstrapped once
<midfavila-laptop>
i mean, fwiw,
<midfavila-laptop>
if *I* was writing a compiler for a brand new language in raw machine code,
<midfavila-laptop>
i'd implement a subset first
<midfavila-laptop>
and then work my way up from there
<noocsharp>
i mean c wasn't written in assembly
<noocsharp>
it was written in bcpl
<midfavila-laptop>
i was gonna say
<midfavila-laptop>
either B or BCPL
<noocsharp>
i wonder what the tree of language bootstrapping looks like
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<nerditup>
Mostly POSIX shell scripts
<midfavila-laptop>
plot twist, every language arose from the primordial soup of sh
<midfavila-laptop>
even C
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<zola>
When packaging software which requires that a specific user be present, should i create it during installation, or show a message to the user about having to create it?
<midfavila-laptop>
you could always add a prompt
<midfavila-laptop>
be like "Hey we have to create $user for the package, is that okay? [Y/n]"
<dilyn>
yeah you're going to be looking for a long historical chain of compilers on that one
<zola>
That looks like the best solution, thanks midfavila-laptop
<midfavila-laptop>
np
<midfavila-laptop>
i've thought about the best way to approach that myself
<dilyn>
there isn't technically a 'best' way on KISS; most packages simply have a post-install saying 'hey create this user'
<dilyn>
my packages actually do it
<midfavila-laptop>
it might be the case of a package requiring a user be present to build
<dilyn>
I don't think there's a specification for it
<midfavila-laptop>
i've run into programs that refuse to build without a certain user being present
<midfavila-laptop>
it's not common, but it does happen
<dilyn>
^ yes that requires a mess more involvement
<midfavila-laptop>
s'long as the user knows what's going on, I say it's fine
<dilyn>
if your package is more like opennptd you can do it like that package does
<midfavila-laptop>
but fwiw my suggestion remains to ask the user
<dilyn>
if you have good reason to suspect the user wants such users and groups to be implemented in a different way (i.e., a specific home directory, or maybe they want it to be able to login), you'd have to specify user intervention
<zola>
It is a good point, requiring user input to build is really bad, especially if user started a build of multiple big packages and left the system unattended
* midfavila-laptop
shrugs
<midfavila-laptop>
obviously it's not ideal. ultimately as long as the user is informed...
<dilyn>
yeah, making pkg building as interventionless as possible is good; it's part of why (i'd assume, at least) dylan made post-install's print at the end of `kiss b foo bar` in addition to after each `foo`, `bar`
<midfavila-laptop>
if any of you haven't played cave story yet you should
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<acheam>
midfavila-laptop: I find it really funny when people say "thanks midfavila-laptop" because then it sounds like they're thanking your laptop
<acheam>
you should /nick midfavilas_laptop for the extra effect
<illiliti>
lmao
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<GalaxyNova>
Dylan seems to be active on github again!
<illiliti>
OMG
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<illiliti>
i hope he'll back to us
<illiliti>
we all miss him so much
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<phoebos>
he's already done like 40 contributions in a couple of hours. jeez
<phoebos>
i'm happy to see him back, but the pull requests and all the stuff waiting for him would be... overwhelming
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<konimex>
oh dylan's back, I wonder if he knows of the movement of this channel from freenode to libera.chat
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<necromansy>
konimex: it wouldnt be hard to figure it out, the move is listed on k1sslinux.org/irc, so id hope dylan can read
<necromansy>
but its dope to see him back
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<kiedtl>
konimex: if not he'd find out soon, both from r/kisslinux and from the /topic on #kisslinux on freenode
<necromansy>
that too yeah
<konimex>
isn't #kisslinux on freenode +i though?
<phoebos>
you can still see the topic
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<kiedtl>
konimex: I removed the +i, so as to not further provoke the Lords of Leenode
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<midfavila-laptop>
morning, everyone
<midfavila-laptop>
man, I need to tinker on sbase...
<midfavila-laptop>
'mv' doesn't check permissions *before* attempting to move a file, so if you don't have appropriate perms, the file you attempted to move is nuked
<midfavila-laptop>
something tells me that POSIX doesn't specify that
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<necromansy>
midfavila-laptop: i wonder how sbase mv is implemented if its doing that, it *should* check if its got write permissions to the target directory *before* but uuuh
<cem>
I love the occasional shitpost on the suckless mailing list
<midfavila-laptop>
haha, that's a good one
<midfavila-laptop>
">Martin Tournoij - Industry Thought Leader"
<dante0012>
> Suckless.org currently has a score of 100 on Google PageSpeed.
<dante0012>
> This is
<dante0012>
far too high.
<midfavila-laptop>
we need more 80mb video loops in the background
<omanom>
my fav was "Official Certified Oracle™® Cunt™® (2020)"
<dante0012>
they should just rewrite the site in flash ffs
<dante0012>
considering they love old technology
<midfavila-laptop>
Java applets*
<midfavila-laptop>
>"Some of the content is in German, which was too controversial."
<midfavila-laptop>
amazing
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<dante0012>
> There are many modern frameworks but you should really use React in my
<dante0012>
opinion. It is amazing. I do everything with React; I became a millionaire
<dante0012>
by mining Bitcoins with React, I cook my food with React (React curry with
<dante0012>
chickpeas is about as amazing as [12]+3 resulting in the string "123"!),
<dante0012>
and wow, the response from the women when I say I use React!! It's the
<dante0012>
easiest Tinder opening line ever. My cat loves React too.
<acheam>
testuser[m]1: I think you need to disable introspection in gst-plugins
<acheam>
-Dintrospection=disabled
<acheam>
fails to build without it for me, as the whole KISS gtk stack is built without it
* midfavila-laptop
laughs in stable GTK2
<acheam>
stfu
<midfavila-laptop>
make me, geek
<midfavila-laptop>
yer not even an op any more
<midfavila-laptop>
your words hold no power over me
* acheam
stuffs a sock in midfavila's laptop's serial port
<midfavila-laptop>
joke's on you, my laptop has no serial port
<acheam>
jokes on you, you got scammed then
<midfavila-laptop>
not really
<midfavila-laptop>
i can upgrade my laptop with a serial module whenever I want
<midfavila-laptop>
:P
<midfavila-laptop>
although there's a modem module that occupies the same slot
<midfavila-laptop>
depending on whether it's a hardmodem or not I might go with that instead
<midfavila-laptop>
cruise along the information superhighway at 56kbaud, baby
<midfavila-laptop>
...well, the baudrate for a 56kbps modem is significantly higher than 56kbaud, but whatever
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<cem>
Can I confess to my sin of starting to write a React Native phone app
<cem>
For someone's university senior project, too
<midfavila>
if you want to be impaled and burned alive, yes
<cem>
midfavila: maybe I do
<midfavila>
hot
<midfavila>
literally
<cem>
True, should I groan?
<midfavila>
i imagine you would be too busy cooking to do much, but whatever floats your boat
<midfavila>
what's the project?
<cem>
It's a todo app for the visually impaired
<cem>
And I have never in my life did a phone app
<midfavila>
neat. i would have thought that the blind would use a teletype or something
<midfavila>
make sure to use tabs instead of spaces
<midfavila>
/s
<cem>
And I had to choose between learning Java and JS
<cem>
I chose JS
<midfavila>
if it's android, couldn't you have used kotlin or clojure?
<midfavila>
those run on the JVM, right?
<cem>
I'm completely unfamiliar with either of those
<cem>
Are they any good?
<midfavila>
idk anything about kotlin, but clojure seems really cool from what I've seen of it
<midfavila>
it's a Scheme dialect
<cem>
Ah yes lisp
<midfavila>
lithp
<rio6>
people say kotlin is better than java
<cem>
I can at least have some fun
<cem>
Anything is better than Java
<midfavila>
it's not hard to-
<cem>
Maybe except C++
<midfavila>
yeah, was gonna say
<midfavila>
the only thing that's worse than java is JS
<midfavila>
...but even that's debateable
<midfavila>
debatable*
<cem>
Yeah, I was about to say that
<omanom>
speaking of confessing sins, python kiss package manager now has search functionality https://0x0.st/-Lui.png
<cem>
Oh god
<midfavila>
>piss
<midfavila>
i love it
<cem>
The terms package manager and Python only makes me think of Portage
<midfavila>
more like abortage
<cem>
Ten hours of dependency resolution
<midfavila>
only fucking thing I want to do when using gentoo
<midfavila>
but at least it's not sorcery
<midfavila>
sorcery is really cool, but it's a special kind of pain
<cem>
Yeah, like some packages compile faster than portage generates a dependency graph
<midfavila>
n i c e
<midfavila>
that's what you call good programming
<cem>
That's a pro python move
<midfavila>
does portage run on pypi instead of cython?
<omanom>
lol it takes piss 0.14s to complete that query, whereas kiss takes such little time that `time` lists straight 0s
<midfavila>
"it doesn't matter that python is slow, mid"
<omanom>
probably all loading up of the interpreter
<cem>
> piss
<cem>
I love it
<omanom>
well i mean, its still not anywhere near noticeable to a user
<GalaxyNova>
you could probably get it to go faster if you byte compiled it
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<cem>
My computer when I boot up is soo fucking janky that I calculate how much I'll wait before running a command
<cem>
For like the first ten minutes
<midfavila>
ngl KISS can end up pretty janky after a while
<midfavila>
:P
<midfavila>
but the crust is part of the charm
<omanom>
GalaxyNova is that just using py_compile
<GalaxyNova>
yes
<cem>
I mean, my Carbs system is still real fucking fast compared to the times when I used Arch or Void
<cem>
This dumb fucking computer is the actual reason I started this thing in the first place
<midfavila>
the virgin arch minimalist versus the chad kiss essentialist
<cem>
I hate HP with a burning passion and everyday I never hope to see this computer ever again
<dilyn>
lol
<dilyn>
burn the OEM down
<zr>
Open the window
<cem>
It's getting worse, and I'm not even repairing it because I want to get rid of it as soon as possible
<zr>
and throw it out
<midfavila>
cem dude
<midfavila>
you're gettin' a dell
<dilyn>
build your own PC!
<dilyn>
laptops are overrated
<midfavila>
i mean, this, yes
<midfavila>
but also stop buying consumer-grade garbage
<cem>
I'm probably getting a Dell or Lenovo
<zr>
cem's hell will be one giant HP mainframe running NewWave
<midfavila>
lmao
<dilyn>
generating more e-waste is the only way to flex on people
<cem>
zr: lmaoo
<midfavila>
forced to run hpux for all eternity
<cem>
My previous laptop was HP too :^)
<dilyn>
:<
<dilyn>
when will you learn!
<midfavila>
dilyn but consider the following
<cem>
That one was actually good though
<midfavila>
you can actually upgrade old thiccpads
<midfavila>
just get an IBM model smh
<cem>
If my mom didn't start using that, I would actually switch back to it and run ElementaryOS
<dilyn>
aesthetic >>>> upgradeability
<dilyn>
gimme a carbon x1 pls
<midfavila>
go back to your macbook
<midfavila>
>:C
<rio6>
just connect a keyboard to a phone
<midfavila>
maximum dystopia
<dilyn>
hng
<cem>
I know I say this quite a lot, but I would still be a Linux noobie if it weren't for this dumb computer
<cem>
I would still be a literature student
<dilyn>
and now look at you
<cem>
I hate my life
<midfavila>
able to scream about CFLAGS with the rest of us
<cem>
That's true
<dilyn>
one of us, one of us...
<midfavila>
you might want to kill yourself every day from buildtime related stress,
<midfavila>
but at least you can flex on arch users
<cem>
CFLAGS are a circlejerk
<midfavila>
meh, yes and no
<cem>
-march=native -mtune generic -pipe -Os
<cem>
I'm not a 4head
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<midfavila>
i normally use -pipe -w -O2 -fstack-protector -march=haswell
<midfavila>
with a few additional optimizations depending on machine
<cem>
I have never changed CFLAGS since the day I first installed Gentoo
<midfavila>
if there's a gentoo, was there a genone?
<dilyn>
:c
<cem>
genzee jokes
<dilyn>
I wish agressive CFLAGS were... more worthwhile
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<dilyn>
I feel like too much effort has gone into creating them, only for them to just be... basically worthless?
<cem>
Yeah, that's the thing. It's not worth the time micro managing cflags
<dilyn>
managing thin LTO is annoying as it is. I couldn't imagine adding more than that
<midfavila>
aggressive cflags are usually set by upstream
<midfavila>
at least afaik
<cem>
midfavila: Yeah, exactly
<dilyn>
but even that isn't uniform :\
<midfavila>
well, the way I look at it is this
<midfavila>
if they're not set, you're not losing anything
<dilyn>
some maintainers like aggressive CFLAGS, some think you should always be conservative, some will always defer to the user, even when they shouldn't...
* midfavila
shrugs
<midfavila>
no like
<midfavila>
when I say "upstream"
<midfavila>
i mean the software devs
<dilyn>
yes
<midfavila>
i've seen programs that build with -funroll-loops for example, even though I'd never set that myself
<dilyn>
yeah
<cem>
Also lazy people who didn't fix their software after GCC10 and arbitrarily add -fno-common :P
<midfavila>
>mfw I was using gcc8 not too long ago
<cem>
<mfw not surprised mid was using old software
<midfavila>
look,
<midfavila>
no bully
<midfavila>
pls
<midfavila>
i bruise easily
<cem>
midfavila: I'm sorry :(
<midfavila>
as you should be uwu
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<omanom>
.17s to list installed packages vs .01s lol
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<noocsharp>
omanom: what changed?
<omanom>
almost the entirety of the difference in time is due to python's slow importing
<noocsharp>
oh are you working on a kiss in python?
<midfavila>
piss does appear to be pythonized kiss
<omanom>
yeah just playing around with it
<midfavila>
i actually want to write a stripped-down KISS in scheme later on...
<midfavila>
it's good to see someone working on a similar project
<midfavila>
"similar" in that it's a non-shell KISS, I mean
<acheam>
king
<acheam>
k
<acheam>
noocsharp's thing
<acheam>
there are a many of them :)
<midfavila>
okay, well, *excuse me*, princess
<midfavila>
it's not like I spend all day in here >:c
<acheam>
you... don't?
<midfavila>
correct
<acheam>
what is this way of living?
<midfavila>
i spend twenty-three hours and fifty-nine minutes per day in here
<midfavila>
the one minute is to make tea
<acheam>
hmm maybe augmented reality goggles that you can wear during the tea making that project this irc channel into your eyeballs?
<acheam>
or a screen reader?
<acheam>
we've gotta bump up your numbers
<midfavila>
you joke, but if I could get a third eye-style gadget I'd already have one
<noocsharp>
tbf i haven't worked on mine in several months
<dilyn>
illiliti is, like with most things, going to be the first to market :v
<acheam>
illilili himself, or king?
<acheam>
should I be worried about human trafficking?
<midfavila>
nothing to see here
<midfavila>
selling an ILTI body pillow for 12000 USD
<acheam>
are you a... wayfair employee?
<midfavila>
IKEA
<acheam>
got a coupon code?
<midfavila>
not for you
<acheam>
well you've got a lawsuit coming your way in that case
<noocsharp>
wtf why does gas only support at&t syntax
<acheam>
gas?
<noocsharp>
gnu assembler
<midfavila>
because intel syntax needs to die in a fire
<noocsharp>
intel syntax is better in every way
<acheam>
why aren't you using nasm?
<noocsharp>
i am
<noocsharp>
but i was trying to get gcc to compile c to intel asm
<acheam>
ah
<acheam>
tbf supporting two syntices seems annoying
<acheam>
and if you've seen the GNU C style
<acheam>
then obvs they're gonna support the worse asm style
<acheam>
midfavila: you'd like the GNU C style
<acheam>
its very lispy
<rio6>
I know gcc can output intel syntax but that's as far as I used
<noocsharp>
i wonder why
<midfavila>
lithpy
<midfavila>
ith becauth Thtallman liketh LISPth
<noocsharp>
sereral million lines of c++ and they barely support intel syntax
<noocsharp>
actually i probably would prefer nasm support to intel
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<zr>
20:56 <helpfixX> I am getting a font error whenever I try to launch xorg, what do I do? i have fontconfig, terminus-font, libreation-fonts, xorg-server, libinput, xf86-video-amdgpu, sowm, and xinit installed. will post xorg log shortly