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<beach>
Am I reading the page on ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION right in that the keyword arguments are required? The phrase that explains how the properties of the generic function will change according to the values of those arguments seems to suggest that.
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<beach>
It does seem a bit excessive to require that, though. I mean, all those keyword arguments could reasonably default to the existing ones if the generic function already exists.
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<beach>
SBCL ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION does not seem to require any of those arguments.
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<pillton>
beach: Which part of the CLHS entry makes you think they are required?
<beach>
The phrase that explains how the properties of the generic function will change according to the values of those arguments seems to suggest that.
<Bubblegumdrop>
Hm, that's an interesting question, are &key arguments ever required?
<beach>
That phrase doesn't make much sense if those arguments are not supplied.
<Bubblegumdrop>
Hm, maybe I've been using &key arguments all wrong this whole time.
<beach>
Bubblegumdrop: They are required if the function checks for them being supplied.
<beach>
Bubblegumdrop: They are not required by the semantics of the language.
<Bubblegumdrop>
That's an interesting ... I'm not sure what you'd call it... idiom?
<Bubblegumdrop>
I never really thought about it before.
<beach>
Call what?
<pillton>
beach: Yeah the page could do with some work. It does say "The keyword arguments correspond to the option arguments of defgeneric, ..." though.
<Bubblegumdrop>
I guess you can't have &key and &optional right?
<beach>
pillton: Hmm, yes, I see.
<pillton>
beach: Based on that you could probably argue that the lambda-list keyword is required.
<beach>
pillton: You could do that, but the initialization protocol for generic functions does not require the lambda-list argument to be present.
<beach>
Bubblegumdrop: You can, but some consider it bad style.
<pillton>
beach: Yeah, but the CLHS entry doesn't specify what to do if lambda-list is NIL.
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<beach>
The MOP specifies that the generic function is created without this information, and that it will be set when a method is added, or the function is reinitialized.
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<beach>
... in the initialization protocol. Not in ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION.
<pillton>
Right. I have no idea then.
<beach>
So it makes sense for ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION to call MAKE-INSTANCE without the LAMBDA-LIST argument.
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<beach>
I think I'll just do what SBCL does. It seems conforming in that if ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION is called without any of those arguments, the consequences seem to be undefined.
<beach>
So we can just define those consequences.
<beach>
pillton: Thanks for the input.
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<pillton>
beach: No problem.
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<beach>
That page seems to be a case for WSCL. Can people with other Common Lisp implementations installed confirm that those implementations do not require the keyword arguments, please?
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<beach>
gilberth: Have you considered making the Nova Spec "annotatable" like you did with the CLIM II specification?
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<gilberth>
beach: I did consider that and I believe it could be pretty useful.
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<gilberth>
However, this time I believe I would need some safe-guards. And I want some addressing scheme, so that annotations are not tied to this particular rendefing of the draft spec.
<childlikempress>
wer distributed object store
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<gilberth>
It could be something simple like section 4.5.6.2.1, third paragraph. Some specs actually number their paragraphs, like ISO C (which I happen to read atm).
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<childlikempress>
c++ is nicer
<childlikempress>
as it has named sections, which stay stable between versions
<childlikempress>
like the worst section of the c++ standard will always be intro.progress
<gilberth>
Are the paragraphs also named?
<childlikempress>
no
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<gilberth>
So this doesn't solve anything. Besides I don't expect that ANSI CL will ever be updated. And our sections have names as well.
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<beach>
gilberth: I see. I think something like that would be very useful for WSCL.
<beach>
But I don't know exactly what form it would take.
<beach>
gilberth: What I would really like is to annotate the dictionary entries with WSCL issues.
<beach>
I guess there could be a button to show or hide annotations.
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<gilberth>
beach: Yes, but dictionary entries also have paragraphs.
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<gilberth>
What would be easy though would be to just compile a list of annotations asoociated with a section, either a number like 4.5.6.1.1 or a dictionary entry. For dictionary entries there could just be a subsection "Remarks" or something below all the other subsections like "Description", "See also", etc.
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<gilberth>
Not important: I don't like any buttons that hide or reveal information. It's IMHO a UX nono. Scrollbars have been invented already.
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<gilberth>
Same as popups that pop up while the mouse (which mouse btw on a tablet or phone?) hovers over something. Those annoy me most as I have the habit to use the mouse pointer as a virtual finger following text as I read that text.
<gilberth>
So the very text that I am reading is then obscured by a popup. One offender is wikipedia. I need to take an effort and "park" the mouse pointer at some safe spot.
<gilberth>
beach: So, WSL additions are with the dictionary only?
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<beach>
Mainly.
<gilberth>
Good. Is there any markup with those remarks?
<beach>
scymtym already did this, but then as I recall, he said that the Nova Spec is better than what he dis.
<beach>
gilberth: Yes, the ones we worked on seriously are formatted exactly like the issues in the standard.
<beach>
Or, I guess in the HyperSpec.
<gilberth>
Yes, but what is used? TeX? Or like those issue files, which are plain text?
<beach>
It is plain text, but they have a certain layout that makes it possible to parse them.
<gilberth>
I see.
<gilberth>
Good then for WSL integration that would perhaps be a special case for me.
<gilberth>
Good, good. So when I attend to the spec again, I better get in contact with scymtym, so that we can come up with something.
<beach>
Sounds great!
<gilberth>
beach: Thanks.
<beach>
Sure.
<beach>
I should really get into the habit of writing at least one of those every day.
<gilberth>
Ok, those things look more like actual articles and not like remarks. I think that would call for some subsection in dictionary entries, like "WSL Notes" or something pointing to that text files, perhaps typeset or not.
<beach>
Some of them exist only in the form of abbreviated GitHub issues. Like when we detect something but don't have time to write it down in the right layout.
<beach>
gilberth: That's kind of what I thought of when I mentioned a button.
<beach>
But I guess a "link" would have been more accurate.
<gilberth>
Links, beach, links.
<gilberth>
I see you have a "REFERENCE: FOO" line. That should get me going.
<gilberth>
However, some symbols have multiple dictionary entries. Like CONS. Which is a function and a system class.
<beach>
Great! Yes, we modeled those issues after the X3J13 (did I get that right?) issues to make them as precise as possible.
<beach>
But that also means more work to create them.
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<beach>
Yes, good point.
<gilberth>
I looked at a few. I can tell sections just fine. What I cannot tell though is verbatim text (example Lisp) from prose.
<beach>
Yeah, there is no markup.
<gilberth>
There almost is. It's preformatted. And you SHOUT YOUR LISP SYMBOLS.
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<beach>
I suppose we could add some markup, but scymtym must be consulted for that.
<beach>
Yes.
<gilberth>
I would propose markdown'ish.
<gilberth>
You already separate paragraphs by two newlines. You say "Foo:", newline, some indented text. That's a section.
<childlikempress>
:(
<gilberth>
markdown has verbatim text just indented further than the surrounding prose.
<gilberth>
There isn't more we need.
<beach>
I have no preference myself, but scymtym very likely does.
<gilberth>
And it still is perfectly fine preformatted plain text. No need to get too fancy.
<gilberth>
Otherwise those text files look fine. I can pickup FOO-BAR and recognize that as Lisp or pointers to other proposals or issue.
<beach>
Sounds great!
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<beach>
The other thing I suggested was a web form to create WSCL issues, so that one would not have to remember the layout. I suck at web stuff myself, so I was suggesting it to others, but nobody seemed interested.
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<beach>
I have no idea how hard that would be, but I imagine "not very".
<beach>
Maybe I could convince Shimera to do it.
<gilberth>
The web part would be almost trivial. The github part is what I have no clue about.
<beach>
What would be the role of the "github part" (sorry for being so dense!)?
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<gilberth>
Well, you craft your WSCL issue, and what happens then? I was assuming that you want it to appear in that github repo.
<beach>
That would be good. But even if that required some manual intervention, that would be no problem.
<beach>
It still beats having to remember (or consult) the layout "specification".
<gilberth>
beach: Have you considered writing an editor macro?
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<beach>
I can't say I have.
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<beach>
I just think it would encourage more people if we could just give them a link here to a web form to fill out.
<gilberth>
Who would be authorized to do so? Would there be a moderator? How would you deal with spam?
<beach>
Good questions. Don't know the answers.
<beach>
Already, anybody can file a GitHub issue, right?
<gilberth>
Anybody? Or anybody with a github account?
<beach>
I don't know.
<gilberth>
Besides you ask me to be a github proxy. That's dangerous.
<beach>
I do? I don't recall that.
<gilberth>
You wanted a web form for anybody to enter a WSCL issue and that issue should make it to github. No?
<beach>
Well, like I said, manual intervention would be fine. If the files ended up in some directory that I can access on the web, I can move them myself.
<beach>
It still beats trying to remember the layout rules.
<beach>
That way, I can also scan for spam and remove it.
<beach>
Of course, someone could fill that directory with crap.
<gilberth>
Ok. That would be like a moderated mailing list or something.
<beach>
I guess so, yes.
<gilberth>
Craziest idea: Can't we use NNTP for distribution?
<gilberth>
beach: Anyhow, any relays or proxies are troublesome. At the moment the completely open clim-spec annotation would just harm myself, so that's ok. I don't feel comfortable when a service that I run can harm someone else. Or their infrastructure.
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<beach>
I understand.
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<childlikempress>
nntp!
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<alcor>
So I've been using ocicl recently – am I correct in the assumption that the systems are stored project-locally, similarly to npm's node_modules? If so, that's pretty cool.
<beach>
gilberth: Or the resulting text file could just be sent to me as an email attachment.
<beach>
That way it would not accumulate in anybody's directory.
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<Bubblegumdrop>
alcor yes but they don't have to be
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<Bubblegumdrop>
alcor they go into (merge-pathname "systems/" (uiop:getcwd))
<alcor>
Bubblegumdrop: Thanks, I found the global (-g) option earlier, but the default behavior is preferrable for me. I prefer self-contained project setups.
<Bubblegumdrop>
yes it's good for both
<Bubblegumdrop>
You could even use a symlink
<Bubblegumdrop>
systems.csv is the folder you'll want to check into vcs, I have systems/ in my .gitignore for my projects
<Bubblegumdrop>
s/folder/file/
<alcor>
Yeah I figured that out. It's similar to the way I usually handle npm projects
<Bubblegumdrop>
I didn't know about the -g option, thanks
<Bubblegumdrop>
Oh, if you look at the Makefile from the ocicl project you can see some useful stuff