<mariari>
bjorkintosh: the smalltalk work has mostly been stable now, though I do have a loading probelm with my specific version of pharo 12, going to experiment with the gui tooling provided
<mariari>
ahh I spoke too soon rossle loading borked my image
<mariari>
hmm seems it's loaded properly, very weird
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<dnhester>
younder: that sounds aweomse and very practical. Can you share the code? Are you generating a class because your are using an ORM or just for ease of handeling the data? I would probably use such code instead of manually coding mito tables
<dnhester>
It would seem like a fairly easy extension of the language, I'm surprised it's not at least supported by the implementations, since it looks like it's not supported by the standard, and I would have expected there to be some trivial-* package dealing with this
<ixelp>
GitHub - tpapp/let-plus: destructuring extension of let*
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<dnhester>
has anyone used them? does anyone have any thoughts about them? why not to use them besides coding non standard code?
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<beach>
What would you use parametric types for?
<scymtym>
if i remember correctly, the current version of let-plus does not process all declarations correctly
<scymtym>
beach: you could do something like (declaim (ftype (forall a (function (a) a)) my-identity)) which i think cannot be expressed with the CL type system
<beach>
I see.
<scymtym>
or maybe, in an broader sense of "type", something like (forall a (defstruct my-list-node (value ... :type a) (next ... :type (my-list-node a))))
<dnhester>
beach: the example in the link was a bit shocking for me, though I had already experienced that and you answered me, but I just thought it was a standar issue but there would be wasy to get around it...
<dnhester>
"The standard does not guarantee that this gives you an array of double-float: it may (if the implementation provides them), otherwise you get an array of element type T. This turned out to be a major difficulty for implementing portable scientific code in Common Lisp."
<dnhester>
"However, this gets worse: while you can tell a function that operates on arrays that these arrays have element type double-float, you cannot dispatch on this, as Common Lisp does not have parametric types."
<dnhester>
not sure what dispatch means in that sentence? Is he refering to CLOS method selection?
<beach>
Probably.
<beach>
That's what the example suggests.
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<dnhester>
scymtym: the latest one, but previous did? meaning it doesn't actually work correctly?
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<dnhester>
it looks like a very useful and common case, I'm surprised it hasn't been a multi person effort to get a let macro that handles destructuring bind and other things like with-slots done correctly
<beach>
You can always use implementation-specific vector classes. That would be no worse than using a "language" with no standard and a single implementation.
<scymtym>
dnhester: i gave examples of things that could be meant by "parametric types" which common lisp does not support
<hayley>
If your implementation does not give you double-float arrays, then it is probably crap in other ways.
<dnhester>
hm, so why is that? I understand it's not part of the standard, but is it not straight forward (for you guys, I have no idea how) how to implement such a functionality? and make it portable accross implementations?
<hayley>
Would that be an issue, then you should also be concerned that your code is slow if I run it on a 386 with an age-appropriate CL implementation.
<scymtym>
hayley: if i understand correctly, the point of the article was the inability to dispatch on the array element type
<beach>
dnhester: I keep repeating this, but people who are willing to use a "language" without a standard and with a single implementation probably have no right to demand that code should work across multiple implementations of a standardized language.
<hayley>
I guess there's nothing built in to dispatch on ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE.
<dnhester>
scymtym: yeah thanks, I was referring to your previous comment on the current version of let-plus
<beach>
dnhester: hayley probably knows better than I do, but I would expect every major Common Lisp implementation to have a special vector class for single and double floats.
<scymtym>
dnhester: a working let-plus could probaby be made with a little bit of implementation-specific code. namely it would need a way to tell whether foo in (declare (foo x y z)) refers to a type or to a user-defined declaration
<hayley>
Broadly I think compilers could get a lot smarter here, and this isn't "sufficiently smart compiler" territory because such compilers exist.
<hayley>
Anyone up to run cl-all "(upgraded-array-element-type 'double-float)"
<dnhester>
beach: yeah, I agree. I am not asking or complaining about lisp, it's more of a question. So there were two questions, hayley cleared up the issue of the make-array being a portability issue, but it implies good implementations would actually work. the secon question about method dispatch sounds like a community developed system that extends CLOS dispatch which should probably be possible to write in a portable way. So the question is
<dnhester>
if it's not as easy as I would expect from the fact that it seems no one has implemented it.
<hayley>
I think that parametric types in this example are part of an XY problem, where the root problem is that the author wants their compiler to generate specialised code. That's not to say that parametric types are only good for specialisation though.
<beach>
dnhester: CLOS dispatch was designed so that it could be implemented with fast code. The minute you abandon classes and go for types instead, there are the issues I mentioned a few days ago.
<hayley>
It shouldn't be hard to hoist type dispatch out of (loop ... (aref a i) ...) but the approach isn't entirely formed in my head.
<beach>
But I think this author uses a strange argument, comparing the Common Lisp standard to something like Julia.
<scymtym>
i think (slightly) more powerful dispatch could be done efficiently, but (as we also discussed last time) semantic issues such as method ordering come up pretty quickly
<dnhester>
scymtym: on the let-plus: ah, so it is possible, just with implementation specific code, and the docs would just need a table to express which implementations are supported, which ones can be supported, and which ones are lacking features. Did I understand correctly?
<beach>
It might be better to make a portability library for the declaration issue, because it comes up in other situations as well.
<hayley>
The dispatch can be hoisted with something like "loop unswitching", but I'm not sure how to represent the dispatch, and how to pick the types to specialise on.
<scymtym>
dnhester: in principle yes
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<dnhester>
scymtym: last time we were talking about dispatch with lambda lists. The semantic issues you mention: do you mean how to decide on which order when two methods seem to have an equal level of specialization? for parametric types though I would think it's pretty much the same as what exists, if we consider a vector with only a specific type to be more specific than a vector of variable types. What am I missing?
<dnhester>
beach: sorry, do you remember whn we spoke about the types so that I can read the IRC logs? or is it easy to mention the issue?
<beach>
I mentioned types such as (integer 0 3) and (integer 1 4).
<hayley>
Another option is to specialise methods against the observed classes of arguments; if the implementation has a class for each type of specialised array (SBCL does), then you will get pretty specialised code.
<dnhester>
hayley: ok, that sounds like you are thinking about how to do it. Not sure what is unswitching. Does the array object not contain information on the type?
<dnhester>
beach: ah thanks, now I remember, the issue of how to dispatch on a number like 2 which can meet both methods. Is that correct?
<dnhester>
hayley: thanks for the link
<scymtym>
dnhester: for parametric types, the question of variance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covariance_and_contravariance_(computer_science)) arises. given types a and b, is (vector a) a subtype of (vector b)? in common lisp, this issue is problematic already, mostly when array and function types appear in type declarations
<hayley>
The array does have information on its type, but often types (in really any language with any form of polymorphism or super/subtyping) are less specific than what we would like to optimise on.
<beach>
dnhester: Correct.
<hayley>
To go completely out of left field, consider in ML (with parametric types, mind) a function map of type ('a -> 'b) -> 'a list -> 'b list. A fancy compiler might want to know the function being provided, and the types 'a and 'b.
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<dnhester>
hayley: pardon my ignorance, what does ML stand for?
<hayley>
Meta Language
<hayley>
If we compiled map by itself, we would not know any of that information, and so couldn't optimise much. Instead we could compile multiple versions of map for all the types and functions we encounter.
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<hayley>
All the Common Lisp implementations and SML/NJ use the former approach. (Mostly - SBCL has special cases for some of its sequence functions.) MLton and Julia use the latter approach.
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<hayley>
*All the Common Lisp implementations that I know of
<dnhester>
hayley: ah I see. On the class for each type of speclized array, do you mean that (make-array ... 'float) will result in a object of some class e.g. float-array which is a subclass of their regular array class? and that way sbcl handles clos dispatch and efficient compiled code? if that is the case, then his argument is absurd unless it only complains on portability. Did I understand you correctly?
<hayley>
_In SBCL_ (make-array 10 :element-type 'single-float) results in an instance of SB-KERNEL::SIMPLE-ARRAY-SINGLE-FLOAT. This may not be the case for other implementations.
<hayley>
Here is Clozure for kicks: ,(class-of (make-array 10 :element-type 'single-float))
<dnhester>
hayley: ah so that's a compiler issue again.
<beach>
dnhester: It's a Common Lisp implementation issue.
<beach>
dnhester: But that's why I said the author's argument is indeed absurd.
<hayley>
But regardless of if we use classes or some other means to represent the element type of specialised arrays, AREF must eventually dispatch on the element type. So I think we can unswitch the dispatch to get specialised code.
<dnhester>
beach: yeah, sorry that's what I meant, the implementation's compiler
<beach>
No, not the compiler.
<beach>
It's about what classes are defined and how generic dispatch is implemented.
<dnhester>
beach: are you referring to the "Instead we could compile
<dnhester>
encounter." comment by hayley? or to the comment about specialized arrays classes?
<dnhester>
multiple versions of map for all the types and functions we
<beach>
The latter.
<dnhester>
sorry, copy paste fail
<hayley>
dnhester: People are of differing opinions on the matter. Some people like to use macros to clue the implementation in. I'd rather not use macros for that kind of thing, and I'd rather have more job security with mildly interesting software.
<dnhester>
ah ok, so yeah, two issues, implementation issue for representation of the specialized arrays, and compiler issue for the (not even sure what to call it) compiler issue of parametric types when there are no specialized classes
<dnhester>
hayley: didn't quite follow that last sentence: macros to clue the implementation in of what? the type of the array for it to optimize the code? and then the rest is a mistery
<hayley>
dnhester: You might have a macro which does dispatch and specialise code.
<hayley>
Something like (defmacro dispatch (value types &body body) `(etypecase ,value ,@(loop for type in types collect `(,type ,@body))) [untested though]
<dnhester>
hayley: got it, thanks. What do you mean by "more job security with mildly interesting software."?
<hayley>
dnhester: Someone has to make the compiler more clever.
<dnhester>
thanks for the variance and covariance and contravariance link, it opened my mind to things I hadn't thought about.... this is lisp though, and by the little expererience I've had so far, it seems to me that the language has traditionally placed a great deal of importance on flexibility to let developers decide for themsevles instead of being stuck in a specific paradigm... Which is what I understand MOP and Macros to be essentially. or
<dnhester>
the code as data. So it would make sence to me for dealing with all these dispatch issues to simply pick some approach, and the real innovation would be that at the same time for a given generic function, the programmer can specify how to treat things either as covariant or contravariant. Though this may be alredy requiring new levels of sofistication, akin to what MOP is for CLOS, to the dispatch implementation
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<dnhester>
hayley: thanks for the link. so someone has to bring up the CL compilers up to the level of other languages which are using splitting optimization. That doesn't have to do with the language itself since the compiler could take care of it. Did I understand correctly? The dispatch macro you suggested would be an approach for the user of the implementtion to make the compiler be efficient by providing already split code. Is that right?
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<dnhester`>
scymtym: beach: "i think (slightly) more powerful dispatch could be done efficiently, but (as we also discussed last time) semantic issues such as method ordering come up pretty quickly" Would it be hard to make a more powerful dispatch supporting types, lambda lists, etc, with a few rules for deciding on the dispatch and then whenever we hit any semantic issue, leave the result as undefined which method will be dispatched, btu
<dnhester`>
guarantees that if there is some method that could be dispatched it will, and then make an interface that would allow the programmer to give an ordering of preference to the methods and/or to the types (like in beach's example of (integer 0 3) and (integer 1 4) the user can simply say that he wants the dispatcher to consider (integer 0 3) to be more specialized when there is a tie between those two). That way we could get best of both
<dnhester`>
worlds: more powerful dispatch, and avoiding the semantic issues by simply saying it's unspecified which method will be called, yet the ability for the programmer to then define an ordering would be a great innovation to provide that flexibility and for the user to choose between conravariant and covariant ordering, etc (contrasting to the OCaml example in the introduction of the link you sent
<beach>
dnhester`: Personally, I think language implementation (especially for Common Lisp) is fairly hard, but language design is way too hard for me. Sure anything is possible, but it is likely to be slow, and it is likely to have lots of undefined situations. Or situations that are defined by how it is implemented. So I would not attempt anything like that myself.
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<scymtym>
it would be hard and a lot of work. to be honest, i think types and patterns as specializers (that is to be used in dispatch) and parametric types would better fit into a new language rather than an into extension to common lisp. but as beach said, that is probably too hard for any of us
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<dnhester>
thanks for the replies
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<beach>
dnhester: There are a lot of "languages" around, designed by people who did not have the right competence to do so. Common Lisp is great, because it was designed by a bunch of people who had lots of experience with other Lisp dialects, and who were both smart and knowledgeable. And there were many of them so that their ideas could be discussed.
<beach>
I am afraid that attempting some arbitrary addition to Common Lisp will turn it into a language in that first category.
<beach>
... at least if I am in charge.
<epony>
what are you talking about?
<beach>
epony: Oh, you really need to check the logs for that.
<beach>
epony: Long discussion.
<epony>
student's coursework is not a programming language ;-)
<dnhester>
so it would be very hard because of the amount of work to make it happen (even beyond the prototype scymtym made), and trying to figure out all the different places where we could have a somewhat defined ordering vs the places where it would be undefined. correct?
<epony>
languages are spoken by hundreds of thousand and tens of millions of people (and machines)
<dnhester>
scymtym: it would better fit into a new language because of how large a project it would be? and because then a lot of the benefit would have to be dependent on the implementors of the language writing compilers that would take advantage of the code? is that correct?
<beach>
dnhester: Figuring out the semantics and determining whether the semantics are reasonable. Figuring out how to make it fast, and perhaps determining restrictions to make sure it can be implemented in a reasonable way. Then the work of implementing it.
<epony>
aren't you a bit "self-centred" ? ;-)
<epony>
also virtual memory managed in an application is not really a compiler toolkit
<dnhester>
I was envisioning it to be something like MOP in the sense that it's a definition of something and how it should work, with room for the implementations to decide how to implement it. I guess it's more on the language design in that sense, and writing it as an addition is an implementation that can later be replaced.
<beach>
dnhester: That's even harder! Alan Kay once said the AMOP book was one of the absolute best CS books around.
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<beach>
dnhester: He said that because not only did they design CLOS. And not only did they show how to implement it any old way. They showed how to implement it as a CLOS program. And not only that, they showed how to make it fast.
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<dnhester>
beach: I hear, I am the least one here to be competent, I am just learning from you guys. With that said, there are plenty of parametric typed languages, the dispatch, while probably more unique to CL, is more like an experiment, and if it works out to be good, implementations would probably make their own improved versions, and after enough experimenting, people would probably have enough experience to then make design decisions of a
<dnhester>
new typed dispatch specification that the implementations may decide to adopt for the sake of conforming with some better design, and eventually there would be an added system that could be useful, although not part of the official standard, but which would nevertheless in all practicality be it's own specification and a powerful extension of CL which can even be used in implementations not implementing it by adding a system to the
<dnhester>
image with quicklisp
<dnhester>
beach: sorry, I was writing and didn't realized you had replied, I'll read your comments now
<beach>
dnhester: I am guessing that most of the languages you are referring to are static languages. That's a very different story. Those languages compile everything first, and then execute. They don't have to worry about what happens if someone redefines some program elements after execution has happened.
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<dnhester>
ah wow, I didn't know that, but I am quite in love with CLOS and MOP. Actually the reason I came to lisp was MOP because i couldn't do a lot of things I wanted to in java and python at the time, and it has blown my mind. macros were something I wanted to learn because of the hype, and I've barely scratched the surface, I've mostly just used them to avoid writing a lot of code that would be let, with-slots, conditionals, and different
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<bjorkintosh>
dnhester, I'm curious, what did you want to do in java or python that simply couldn't be done? were you creating a DSL?
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<dnhester>
bjorkintosh: I wanted to check the fields in an object at runtime and if a certain field was prsent do certain things, and there were other details which prooved hard. I was using groovy. Python was just too slow and I didn't even try learning about their introspction. Though I can't fully remember, I know that I just tried coding it in lisp without learning much about lisp, and somehow it was pretty straight forward and simple, so I
<dnhester>
just decided I would do the project with CL and learn CL on the way... it proved great with MOP and Macros
<bjorkintosh>
I see.
<dnhester>
scymtym: beach: on the topic of let-plus and trivial-declare: I couldn't find much of a syntax for determining "whether foo in (declare (foo x y z)) refers to a type or to a user-defined declaration" in sbcl https://www.sbcl.org/manual/ maybe I have to search in their image. With apropos I got the following (filtered by hand): https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/4129#4129 but I'm not sure what I would be looking for to be able to check
<beach>
dnhester: I don't know the details of SBCL. But the thing is that you can write (declare (fixnum x)) which is shorthand for (declare (type fixnum x)), and in general, you can write (declare (<type-specifier> ....)) as a shorthand for (declare (type <type-specifier> ...)).
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<dnhester>
beach: ok thanks
<beach>
dnhester: The problem is that you can also do (declaim (declaration <name> <name>...))
<beach>
And then you can do (declare (<name> ...)).
<beach>
So then the meaning of the declaration depends on whether <name> has been defined as a type specifier, perhaps using DEFTYPE, or whether it has been proclaimed as a DECLARATION.
<beach>
And, as gilberth often points out, the standard does not provide the tools for determining which one it is.
<beach>
But you need to know which one it is so that you can write a macro such as LET-PLUS.
<beach>
Because you need to break it up to several nested binding constructs. And then, any type declaration must be associated with the binding construct that binds the variable(s) being bound.
<beach>
But if it is a DECLARATION proclamation, you probably want to stick it in the innermost binding construct.
<beach>
So one way would be to create a library that adds such a tool. It would then rely on implementation-specific code in order to present an implementation-independent interface.
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
Huh, TIL you can use a then clause to keep extending a short list when using lists in parallel in LOOP. https://pastebin.com/Y84idLpR
<ixelp>
(loop for y in '(1 2 3 4 5) for x-list = '(a b c) then (cdr x-list) - Pastebin.com
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
My guess when implementing your own Common Lisp the difficulty is like 40% LOOP 40% FORMAT and 20 everything else. :P
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<beach>
I realize that was probably a joke, but I can tell you that LOOP and FORMAT were not too bad, and they were the first modules I wrote for SICL.
<bike>
i can tell you my least favorite part of implementing lisp is doing macro lambda lists
<beach>
LOOP is now extracted as Khazern. Did we extract FORMAT?
<_death>
the semantics of THEN are simple, so maybe you're more impressed with the specific use you found for it
<bike>
pretty sure we have a system for format, yeah
<bike>
one of the in- ones
<bike>
invistra.
<beach>
Ah, yes.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
_death, yes, I'd not seen it in the collection clause before
<Pixel_Outlaw>
well, collection is a loaded term in loop. The iteratable clause I should say.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
@beach, what is Khazern?
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
Ah, I see you made loop portable. I have poor eyes and was typing in wrong. You might pass this to the InterLisp folks as I think their CL is still primitive LOOP.
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<beach>
Pixel_Outlaw: Hmm. Most Common Lisp implementations use MIT LOOP, so it is already portable.
<jasom>
beach: oh, I didn't know about that; looking for a portable loop, I kept finding "Portable Common LOOPS" which is, of course, not a LOOP implementation.
<beach>
Right.
<beach>
jasom: We have extracted lots of modules at this point, so if you are looking to implement Common Lisp, let me know.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Well, after doing a simple (loop repeat 3 collect 'foo) InterLisp's Common Lisp froze. One of the goals is to update their old Xerox PARC implementation. I was thinking maybe the source from your implementation might help. But I do see it depends on some quicklisp packages.
<jasom>
beach: Its been a while, but at one point 5-ish years ago, I was looking at high "bang for buck" things to port over to JSCL.
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<beach>
jasom: I see. Well, we have LOOP, FORMAT, streams, CONSes, sequences, structs, the package system, the reader, printer, pretty printer, as extracted modules.
<beach>
Perhaps more that I can't remember right now.
<beach>
Oh, CLOS.
<jasom>
IIRC much of SICL depends on CLOS, no?
<bike>
also two compilers.
<beach>
Yeah, we use the full language to implement most modules, if needed.
<beach>
Right, compilers.
<jasom>
I suspect neither of the compilers will be helpful for JSCL, since javascript is a peculiar (i.e. non-von-neumann) target
<beach>
Common macros, ASTs, ...
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<beach>
jasom: bike has a bytecode compiler/interpreter.
<jasom>
Sounds like huge progress! I've been out of the CL world for a while since it's mostly a hobby and my personal and professional work was dominating my time recently
<Pixel_Outlaw>
beach: Ah, that's good to know. Think the CLOS is missing too. I think their implementation is somwehre between the first and second pre ANSI standards.
<beach>
jasom: I see. Yes, that can happen.
<beach>
Pixel_Outlaw: Of course, to implement SICL CLOS (extracted as Clostrophilia) you need to bootstrap on an implementation that has CLOS and the MOP.
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<beach>
Er, I mean "to load SICL CLOS..."
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<bike>
can't you load new classes into the JVM with a ClassLoader? (i'm not much of a java guy, though)
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<bike>
new classes/code
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<bike>
honestly seems easier than what clasp has to do with llvm's jit
<bike>
wait, jscl, not abcl
<bike>
argh
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<dnhester>
bike: I've been reading about julia since I read that critique and was thinking about the typed dispatch and saw in mfiano that he attributes performance to the compiler (like hayley pointed out) and the typed system, so I opened the julia website to check out the language and saw they claim it's because they use LLVM, so I was about to ask if there was any compiler using llvm and read your comment. here's the link for mfiano's critique
<dnhester>
beach: thanks for replying, right, now I understand better. I would be happy to try and contribute it, I may need some guidance, but it seems like it's something which would be of use in general
<dnhester>
gilberth: do you have an example of an implementation way of know if a declare is a type specifier or if it has been proclaimed?
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<gilberth>
What do you mean by "implementation way"? And are asking about the tell whether (declare foo x) is a type declaration or a FOO declaration?
<beach>
dnhester: I don't know how to guide you since I don't know the details of existing implementations. You would have to read their documentation and their code in order to find out what they do.
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<bike>
dnhester: clasp uses llvm, but there are several steps the lisp frontend needs to do to give llvm code it can optimize well. clasp does... okay at that. it could do a lot better.
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<gilberth>
Also the specification isn't very precise here. Should (declare (foo x)) be taken as a type declaration, if FOO is a known type or if FOO is not a known declaration? This might appear like splitting hair, but is a little different.
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<dnhester>
gilberth: thanks for replying. copying beach's explanation from above for the explanation. Basically do you know in any specific implementation, say SBCL, how to check if it's a type declaration or a procalamation (I have to read more on that since I already don't remember the difference, so I'm sorry if my wording doesn't make sense, but here's beach's explanation): "The problem is that you can also do (declaim (declaration <name>
<dnhester>
<name>...)) And then you can do (declare (<name> ...)). So then the meaning of the declaration depends on whether <name> has been defined as a type specifier, perhaps using DEFTYPE, or whether it has been proclaimed as a DECLARATION. And, as gilberth often points out, the standard does not provide the tools for determining which one it is. But you need to know which one it is so that you can write a macro such as LET-PLUS. "
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<dnhester>
beach: ok, thanks
<gilberth>
I know of the top of my head that there is ccl::*nx-known-declarations* for CCL. That's all symbols known as a declaration. Good luck with other implementations.
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<dnhester>
bike: ah, ok, thanks for the explanation. I only heard of clasp mainly because of the c++ interoperatibility.
<dnhester>
gilberth: thanks! that's helpful
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<scymtym>
SBCL has (sb-cltl2:declaration-information 'declaration) for non-standard declarations
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<gilberth>
scymtym: How is that supposed to work? When I say (proclaim '(declaration foo-decl)) and say (sb-cltl2:declaration-information 'foo-decl nil) I get an error. While (sb-c::info :declaration :known 'foo-decl) says T.
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<gilberth>
However. (sb-c::info :declaration :known 'foo-decl) gives me T. But (sb-c::info :declaration :known 'sb-ext:muffle-conditions) gives me NIL. But sb-cltl2:declaration-information is happy with the latter.
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<gilberth>
Wait a second. Did you mean (sb-cltl2:declaration-information 'declaration nil)? That indeed lists my FOO-DECL. But not that muffle thingy.
* gilberth
is confused.
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<bike>
probably it only works on user declarations?
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<scymtym>
i should have said for listing user-defined declarations. it cannot be used to introspect user-defined declarations as far as i know
<scymtym>
when examining a given variable (instead of examining all declarations), SB-CLTL2:VARIABLE-INFORMATION can be used
<scymtym>
(only partially relevant to processing declarations)
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<scymtym>
i was wrong about introspecting user-defined declarations. after SB-CLTL2:DEFINE-DECLARATION has been called for a user-defined declaration, then SB-CLTL2:DECLARATION-INFORMATION should work for that user-defined declaration
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<scymtym>
these functions are not described in the manual but have pretty extensive documentation strings
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<hayley>
dnhester: "basically generates a bunch of different versions of the code dependeing on the type and cannot be changed afterwards" I believe not - Ruby is a dynamic language. If they somehow didn't allow for changes, you could allow for changes by deoptimisation <https://bibliography.selflanguage.org/_static/dynamic-deoptimization.pdf>
<hayley>
(I use the vague term "dynamic language" intentionally - I don't know how pleasant it is to use Ruby interactively as one might use Common Lisp. But you can redefine things.)
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<jmercouris>
This feels a bit of a silly question, I'm not sure this is possible
<jmercouris>
but let's say I have something like (format nil "~a, ~a:~a" y y y) where I reuse an argument
<jmercouris>
instead of typing y three times within the body of the format, is there a way to have some sort of reference I can use multiple times within the control string?