<aeth>
Renfield: but I'm not sure what benefit it has over just calling (list ...) other than getting &body's indentation in the IDE rather than &rest style indentation
<aeth>
Renfield: or do you also want to call multiple-value-list on each expression in body?
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<beach>
Renfield: It would be good if you would acknowledge that you have seen some answers to your questions. And if the answers don't solve your problem that you say so.
<beach>
Renfield: Like the other day, I explained to you why your "conundrum" behaves the way it does, but I got no confirmation that you had seen the explanation.
<aeth>
Yes, the question may be much harder and basically require tree-walking. Or not. Who knows.
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<beach>
synchrom1: First, using AND like that is a direct violation of the rules on page 13 of the LUV slides. Second, since CLASS-OF always returns a class metaobject, it is obviously not NIL, so the AND is always going to return T.
<synchrom1>
Forgive me, I know not these 'LUV slides' of which you speak :)
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<synchromesh>
I just wanted to try out the "," bot thing, I didn't mean anything by it particularly
<synchromesh>
Thanks for the link, I shall give that a read-through.
<beach>
Great!
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<phoxfyre>
Hello!
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<mivanchev>
hey folks, what would you say is the "current version" of CL ?
<beach>
Hello mivanchev. The standard hasn't moved, so that is still the current version.
<mivanchev>
yes, the question is more specific than that
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<mivanchev>
i need a version for a linux package manager
<beach>
mivanchev: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.?
<mivanchev>
a <number>.<number> thing, i know about the standard
<beach>
mivanchev: Oh, so you are not talking about the language, but of some implementation of it?
<mivanchev>
@beach, I'm a long time CL user but new here
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<beach>
I see.
<mivanchev>
@beach, yes I need to provide a virtual CL package that SBCL provides (and other packages)
<mivanchev>
maybe 226.1994 would work
<beach>
Oh, so you are looking for SBCL. Then you will find the current version on the SBCL site.
<mivanchev>
I am not looking for SBCL
<beach>
I'm lost then.
<mivanchev>
SBCL has a version
<mivanchev>
but it provides a package common-lisp
<mivanchev>
the question is how to version that package
<mivanchev>
sbcl-x.y.z provides common-lisp-x.y.z
<beach>
Common Lisp packages are different from what is called "packages" in other languages. The COMMON-LISP package has a single version.
<beach>
Sorry for being so dense. Maybe someone else understands better.
<mivanchev>
it's ok :) I need to provide a number/numbers that would change with later releases of the standard
<beach>
Oh, so you *are* talking about the language? The standard very likely won't change.
<mivanchev>
won't be updated?
<beach>
Correct.
<mivanchev>
what :D
<beach>
There is no need to.
<beach>
External libraries provide additional functionality, often across all major implementations.
<mivanchev>
well i need to provide something meaningful for the package
<mivanchev>
0.0.0 won't do
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<beach>
What "package" is this again? I mean, there can't be such a thing as a "Common Lisp package" in the sense of "package" as used by other languages.
<mivanchev>
it's a virtual package Lisp implementations provide that can be referenced as a dependency by lisp stuff
<beach>
You can't download Common Lisp, other than the standards document. You can't run it.
<mivanchev>
so multiple implementations declare they provide "common lisp"
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<mivanchev>
and stuff as cl-alexandria depend on "common lisp"
<beach>
No, they HAVE TO provide a COMMON-LISP package, in order to be called Common Lisp.
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<mivanchev>
they provide one but they expect an implementation
<mivanchev>
like SBCL
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<beach>
I don't think Alexandria requires a particular implementation. So it has no dependencies.
<mivanchev>
fair point, let me sit on that for a while
<beach>
All it requires is a conforming implementation of the language. But that is an implicit dependency.
<mivanchev>
fair fair
<beach>
Maybe you are used to single-implementation languages that evolve every so often, so that the language and the single implementation are basically the same thing. This is not the case for Common Lisp.
<mivanchev>
I'm not used to that, but I am used to a lot of weird packaging situations :))
<gilberth>
Well, that the whole point of a package manager. I gather that mivanchev wants to teach a package manager that either CCL, SBCL, or ECL will do to run some software implemented in Common Lisp.
<mivanchev>
involves a lot of communication to resolve
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<beach>
mivanchev: I take your word for it.
<mivanchev>
yes that's it gilberth
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<beach>
mivanchev: See, I told you someone else would understand better. :)
<gilberth>
mivanchev: And that thingy really needs a version number?
<mivanchev>
yes it's how package managers work. however I can just install alexandria like that without dependencies
<mivanchev>
and it's for you to use it through whatever you wish
<mivanchev>
as beach said
<gilberth>
mivanchev: Would you be fine with calling the dependency "ansi-common-lisp". Because this is what we are talking about. It's the one and only ANSI Common Lisp standard we talk about.
<mivanchev>
no, it needs to be versioned, ansi standards change (see C language :)) )
<gilberth>
ANSI CL won't change.
<beach>
It is interesting to me that package managers seem to assume single-implementation languages without a standard that require a version number.
<gilberth>
Common Lisp had. But ANSI-CL won't.
<gilberth>
beach: That package manager that mivanchev wants to maintain does not assume a single implementation. That's the whole point why he is asking.
<beach>
So how can you depend on a language? It can't be dowloaded.
<beach>
*downloaded
<gilberth>
Many languages come in different versions of the standard. Like C99, C11, C17.
<mivanchev>
yes
<gilberth>
beach: When I have a program written in Common Lisp I need an implementation to run it, don't I?
<beach>
I am not expressing myself very well, so I'll stop.
<mivanchev>
it's ok, I got some ideas, i'll just drop alexandria without an implementation
<mivanchev>
thanks!
<mivanchev>
it's up for the user to resolve how to use it afterwards
<beach>
Sounds good.
<mivanchev>
not even asdf is required
<gilberth>
Alternatives like I know them from debian? "Pick the one you like"
<mivanchev>
no, implicit, you have to install one yourself or install something that dictates an implementation (like StumpWM requiring SBCL)
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<beach>
What SBCL-specific stuff does StumWM require?
<mivanchev>
it uses the sbcl binary for starters
<beach>
I am surprised.
<gilberth>
mivanchev: Anyhow, I still suggest that you go with the name "ansi-common-lisp".
<gilberth>
I'm not. It needs to run that Lisp. A pity though. I tried to solve that with a run-lisp.sh script some 30 years ago, didn't catch on and now perhaps lost.
<gilberth>
I mean "cl" is not standard command name like "cc" is.
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<splittist>
226.1994 does (more or less) specify the standards document
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<mi6x3m>
friends is there a way to copy the files of a system with ASDF?
<mi6x3m>
to, like, copy the system
<beach>
Do you mean copy the component files of the system?
<mi6x3m>
yes
<beach>
You can traverse the system using ASDF and copy each file with whatever method you have for copying a file.
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<mi6x3m>
how would I traverse it
<beach>
Let me check...
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<beach>
(asdf/plan:required-components <system>)
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<mi6x3m>
lemme see, thanks beach
<beach>
Sure.
<beach>
I use it to implement a simple function for loading each component file into a first-class global environment.
<mi6x3m>
you're hardcore
<beach>
That's not the description I would use. I just do whatever I need to in order to get my stuff to work, with as little effort as possible.
<beach>
I more sophisticated solution would probably be to define methods on some ASDF functions, but I wasn't up to that.
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<Shinmera>
you could also just copy the directory tree of asdf:system-source-directory
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<mi6x3m>
the dir tree contains more than the sytem
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<Shinmera>
maybe, maybe not
<mi6x3m>
is it customary to have N asdf systems in one ASD file?
<Shinmera>
the files of the system may depend on those files, too
<Shinmera>
so just copying the .lisp files is not guaranteed to work
<mi6x3m>
Shinmera, IMO a system lists all dependencies
<Shinmera>
your opinion is wrong, then
<mi6x3m>
and something outside of the scope is an ill-described system
<Shinmera>
or rather, it does not reflect reality
<mi6x3m>
that's possible yeah
<Shinmera>
it's not just possible, it is fact
<mi6x3m>
yep
<mi6x3m>
I mean I am aware
<mi6x3m>
was just wandering :)
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<aeth>
gilberth: not only is "cl" not a standard command name for Common Lisp, the letters "CL" are overloaded between "Common Lisp" and "OpenCL", although fortunately OpenCL is kind of dying because the only alternative short name people use for CL is "clisp", which got taken by a CL implementation decades ago.
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<random-nick>
doesn't opencl use the command name clc?
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<random-nick>
hmm no, that's .net?
<aeth>
I don't have clc, but I have various clc-* and they have Lispy names
<aeth>
like clc-slime and clc-lisp. It appears to be `common-lisp-controller`
<random-nick>
actually, disregard that, I was thinking of csc, not clc
<random-nick>
I don't have a clc either
<aeth>
I also think that you may have been thinking of `csi` when you're talking about .net, which iirc presented a name clash between "Chicken Scheme interpreter" and iirc "C# inspector" that made installing both Chicken Scheme and C# impossible in some distros. But at the moment, `csi` is Chicken Scheme for me and I still have mono-core, etc., installed, so that name conflict must have been resolved.
<aeth>
That's the sort of name conflict that using `cl` may also present. Although fwiw, I have had `cl` and `lisp` as shell aliases for `sbcl`
<random-nick>
the only cl binary in arch linux repositories is in a package called cliquer
<random-nick>
and there is no clc
<Pixel_Outlaw>
The sad part is when you work in an IBM mainframe era shop and everytime you hear "CL" they mean "Command Language"
* thuna`
wonders why the (night) train from Vienna costs double on May 8th
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<younder>
gives: P"www/img/" WFT! Why doesn't it append it to the asdf systems directory?
<_death>
you want merge-pathnames, not :defaults
<_death>
or asdf:system-relative-pathname
<random-nick>
aeth: arch has separate maxima-sbcl and maxima-ecl packages
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<younder>
OK (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :directory '(:relative "www" "img")) (asdf:system-source-directory "table-grinder")) seems to work. What a PIG of a system to use!
<ixelp>
GitHub - fosskers/filepaths: Modern and consistent filepath manipulation for Common Lisp.
<kenanb>
There is this old "Writing a Raytracer in CL" tutorial from Alexander Lehmann ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1oMRw04W3E ) . In the tutorial, the matrix is represented as a vector, and a usual 2d accessor (i*numCols+j) is implemented.
<ixelp>
Writing a Raytracer in Common Lisp - Part 1 - YouTube
<kenanb>
Alexander says that a vector is used instead of 2D array, because a 1D array is faster to access than 2D for reasons Alexander is unsure of. Does anyone know if: 1) this is generally true? 2) if there is a standard related reason for it?
<kenanb>
I couldn't quite figure out from the standard text, but based on my reading online, my understanding is that even a multi-dim array is defined as a row-major contiguous data block on memory.
<_death>
furthermore there is row-major-aref that you can pass a single index to
<kenanb>
I can still imagine a suboptimal aref implementation causing a slowdown despite the compact memory layout, presumably due to being too generic etc. But I assume you could still only write your custom accessor, rather than using a vector.
<younder>
Thanks! Ill look into it.
<kenanb>
_death: yeah.
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<_death>
there are cases where a different representation may make more sense but if you need a 2d array, using one is a good default..
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<younder>
I've made arrays with both 1d and 2d views using array displacement in the past
<kenanb>
s/"this is generally true?"/"is this generally true?"
<younder>
The layout in memory is the same. but two array structures sharing the same memory interprets the layout differently
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<kenanb>
younder: yeah, that's my understanding as well. so I can't see any reason for slower access other than a slow aref implementation, due to reasons. I will profile and see for myself.
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<Kingsy>
anyone in here familiar with hunchentoot? I am finding it hard to dynamically set the response code and response body myself in my routes. could do with some pointers if possible.
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<louis77>
Kingsy: you use only hunchentoot?
<Kingsy>
louis77: yes
<louis77>
(setq (return-code* *reply*) 404)
<louis77>
or better (setq (return-code* *reply*) +http-not-found+)
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<louis77>
the body is just what your handler returns, either a string or a binary sequence
<Kingsy>
louis77: yeah I have tried that. it says the value 404 is not of type SEQUENCE
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<louis77>
you need to set the response code with setq, not return it from the handler
<scymtym>
make sure that (setq ... 404) is not the final form of your function. (setq .... THING) evaluates to THING so maybe you accidentally return the number 404 as the response body instead of a string
<Kingsy>
I was using setf, if I use setq I get an error from slime that the variable name is not a symbol
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<Kingsy>
ah ok
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<Kingsy>
woohooo yep that worked. arrghh I would have had it working ages ago if I jsut realised it was the response that was failing not the setting of the code.
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<Kingsy>
louis77: I very much appreciate your response and help. thankyou
<louis77>
Kingsy: glad it works for you now
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<aeth>
implicit return values and implicit NILs are easy sources of mistakes
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<Kingsy>
hmm can someone give me some advice on how to approach a problem, so I have this simple code. https://bpa.st/A4JA <- which gets executed by a macro. the point of the function is to return a lambda so it can be used by reference in a hashmap later. it works great but now I am in a place where I want to wrap the code within the lambda in a handler-case. and it got me thinking.. this way means whenever I
<ixelp>
View paste A4JA
<Kingsy>
want something to be added I need to repeat it twice.. there has got to be a better way
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<Kingsy>
hmm actually maybe I can just pass the variable db with its value into the function rather than it being outside.
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