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<Kingsy>
does (intern ..) always produce the same output regardless of the package from which its called?
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<_death>
it takes an optional parameter, defaulting to the current package.. if you pass it a particular package, it will intern in that package.. of course, that still depends on the current state of that package
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<Kingsy>
_death: cheers
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<skin>
jkjkjjj
<aeth>
vim?
<skin>
sorry, wrong window D:
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<skin>
yeah
<skin>
Lisp+Vim=??? I guess we'll find out
<aeth>
lim, call it lim
<aeth>
don't tell the lem people
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<skin>
haha
<skin>
lim it is
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<younder>
I was doing some postmodern:sql to look at the code generated for a (postmodern:query (:create-table ..)) and having the string cut in middle was annoying.
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<younder>
still trying to get the syntax right for foreign keys specs. (:foreign-key (region-id) (regions id)) doesn't work
<younder>
Otherwise very enlightening example code
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<beach>
Question about package-local nicknames: In SBCL, if I do (DEFPACKAGE #:MUMBLE (:LOCAL-NICKNAMES (#:F #:FOO))) an error is signaled because the package FOO does not exist. But why is it that an attempt is made to resolve the name FOO to a package at this point, rather than when the package prefix F: is used?
<beach>
Followup question: Would an implementation that resolves the name as suggested be a violation of the semantics (defined or expected) of package-local nicknames?
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<thuna`>
beach: Wrt. the first question: if the package namespace is a mapping of strings to package objects and :local-nicknames adds the nickname to this namespace, then the easiest implementation is to resolve the package object immediately. I do not know if any of those assumptions are correct, but I would expect the reason to be something along those lines.
<ixelp>
2.3 Interpretation of Tokens | Common Lisp Nova Spec
<beach>
Thanks.
<beach>
I mean, it is possible to create two different independent packages, say P and Q, and to refer to P from code with (IN-PACKAGE #:Q) and to Q from code with (IN-PACKAGE #:P), but this way of resolving package-local nicknames makes it harder to use package-local nicknames for P in Q and for Q in P.
<beach>
It can be done by adding the local nickname(s) later, but that seems unnecessary to me.
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<beach>
I guess there would be a difference in semantics if FOO is first created, then HELLO as above, and then FOO is deleted, and perhaps re-created differently.
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<beach>
Interesting observation: In SBCL, if I create package AA then package BB with A as a local nickname for AA. Then I delete AA, and finally while in package BB I refer to a symbol A:... I get an error that package A does not exist. This suggests that the package-local prefix is NOT resolved when BB is created. Hmm!
<beach>
Oh, I guess SBCL is using the possibility of marking the package itself so that things like FIND-SYMBOL fail.
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<scymtym>
beach: i think the eager processing is necessary to support the SB-EXT:PACKAGE-LOCALLY-NICKNAMED-BY-LIST operator. i haven't checked whether that operator is part of the specification
<scymtym>
or at least the update of the underlying data structure. then again, maybe that update could be deferred as well
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<beach>
I see. Thanks.
<beach>
And the other day I asked what the purpose of that function is, and nobody answered.
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<bike>
i figured it was just by analogy with packaged-used-by-list.
<scymtym>
probably the same as COMMON-LISP:PACKAGE-USED-BY-LIST? i can think of two uses: 1. preventing "used" packages from being deleted 2. for introspection
<beach>
bike: Oh, that makes sense.
<scymtym>
use 1. wouldn't necessarily justify a user-level operator, of course
<beach>
scymtym: But I just showed an example of a package used as a local nickname being deleted in SBCL.
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<beach>
No questions asked.
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<scymtym>
didn't see that. seems inconsistent with the eager resolution and also with what USE-PACKAGE and DELETE-PACKAGE do
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<beach>
Exactly.
<beach>
But I know see how the implementation of package-local nicknames, as specified, is supposed to work.
<beach>
So thanks for the discussion.
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<cage>
i am bit puzzled about closures and bordeaux-threads, is OK to close over the lambda function that make a new thread?
<cage>
something like (let ((foo ..)) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (format t "~a" foo))))
<cage>
if i can understand correctly it does not works if 'foo' is special
<cage>
but what happens if not?
<cage>
i know that in SBCL the closure works but i fear this behaviour is not portable
<beach>
I don't see why it wouldn't work.
<cage>
beach: thanks, that is a relief!
<beach>
cage: By the way, there is no such thing as a "lambda function". It is just a function. You would have the same situation if you did (let ((foo ...)) (defun bar () (format t ....))) and then used #'bar in your thread creation.
<cage>
true! :)
<beach>
It seems to me that this terminology has become common just because other programming languages only recently discovered that it is possible to create anonymous functions.
<cage>
my cocerns was about the fact the lambda expression would be executed in another thread, swamned by the call to 'bt:make-thread'
<cage>
*spawned
<cage>
thanks beach!
<beach>
I understand, and the function resulting from evaluating the lambda expression (not the lambda expression itself) will be executed in a different thread.
<scymtym>
but note that the variable foo and everything reachable from its value is subject to potential race conditions. so the "parent" thread (which called MAKE-THREAD for the new thread) and the "child" thread must coordinate when changing those objects
<beach>
cage: But the static environment of a function, including closed-over variables, is intrinsic to the function, and does not depend on the thread that executes it.
<cage>
beach: this is an important information for me, i was a bit confused about that
<beach>
I understand.
<cage>
scymtym: thanks!
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<beach>
With special variables, things are different, because bindings are dynamic.
<cage>
for special variables and threads there is an example on the sbcl manual that was very useful for me
<beach>
I see.
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<cage>
basically i think i can do something like (let ((foo *foo*)) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (let ((*foo* foo)) ...))))
<beach>
Sounds right.
<cage>
scymtym: i did quite a bit of multhithread lately programming and race conditions are popping very often :)
<cage>
beach: thanks :)
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<ixelp>
Bordeaux Threads APIv2 | the fe[nl]ix blog
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<beach>
fe[nl]ix: Minor issue: "I hope I can stabilise the it..."
<beach>
fe[nl]ix: And I often recommend avoiding the genitive 's with non-proper nouns. So I would write "returning the return values of the thread function at all". This way, the important word comes first rather than last.
<beach>
fe[nl]ix: "Support for ... is no longer supported". You may want to avoid one support there.
<fe[nl]ix>
thanks
<beach>
Sure. Looks good otherwise.
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<cage>
fe[nl]ix: thanks again!
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<fe[nl]ix>
I rewrote that as "in some cases returning only the first value or none at all"
<cage>
fe[nl]ix: good reminder! I hope all i need to do would be change package qualifier from "bt" to "bt2" :)
<fe[nl]ix>
in the majority of cases, that's all it will take
<cage>
good :))
<beach>
fe[nl]ix: Sounds good.
<fe[nl]ix>
I got some messages from people that were relying on previously broken semantics of condvars, saying that their workaround broke
<fe[nl]ix>
but the plain API now worked fine
<cage>
fe[nl]ix: and thanks for this library, too :)
<fe[nl]ix>
my pleasure
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<beach>
In case someone wonders, the library was started by Dan Barlow when he was at the LSM/RMLL in Bordeaux. Hence the name. I forget the year exactly, but 2001 or so.
<ixelp>
[cclan-list] Another defsystem proposal | Comprehensive Common Lisp Archive Net
<cage>
from 2001, indeed
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<reb>
fe[nl]ix: I just tested swank-client and swank-crew with bordeaux-threads-v2 and all tests passed once I modified instances of (make-thread) and (make-thread "thread name") to (make-thread :name "thread name").
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<fe[nl]ix>
nice
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<skin>
He's incredibly prolific. I like him because he makes tools around Common Lisp that are intended for battle hardened, production environments
<yitzi>
Or buggy and without documentation depending on your experience.
<skin>
It's just that the design decisions normally made around making production environments easy to debug and deploy are controversial here.
<skin>
There is definitely that problem.
<skin>
But take qlot for example. He made that too. It lets you create "lock files", locking down the precise versions of common lisp you ship in your thing
<skin>
But people don't like this for some reason.
<skin>
He also created "rove", a common lisp testing framework. I use it. It works fine, has a lot of stuff for code coverage, things you'd see in bigger shops.
<ixelp>
Release Common Lisp on Your First Day — Skin's Blog
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<Bubblegumdrop>
2nd buggy without documentation
<Bubblegumdrop>
still good though...
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<younder>
Rewiring your brain to think in data-parallel by learning APL. The best way to learn to write efficient GPU code even if you are going to program in CUDA or such.
<Bubblegumdrop>
OpenGL shaders were pretty good for that too
<younder>
April (APL sub-language in CL) will compile to use compute shaders under the hood.
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<younder>
Correction 'will' means it is a work in progress. It doesn't do it at present
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<Kingsy>
alright so I have just had a total wild goose chase. when you are working on macros. what is the best way of ensuring the code I am looking at in the file is the code that is in the repl? I have tried.. closing slime and opening a new slime connection, doing a quicklisp quickload again, and also recompiling
<Kingsy>
for some reason it burst itno life when I addeda format statement above the place where the macro was being used.
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<josrr>
Kingsy: I would either compile the macro and the forms that use it or reload the file.
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<Kingsy>
josrr: if I were compiling again, does it amtter what order I do it in?
<josrr>
first the macro, then the formas that uses it
<josrr>
s/formas/forms/
<Kingsy>
josrr: alright will remember that in the future.
<Kingsy>
I would have thought closing slime and starting it again would do it though...
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<josrr>
I think it should work too
<thuna`>
I imagine a broken fasl could mess things up even with a new instance, although I don't remember how slimes handles it exactly
<thuna`>
s/slimes/slime/
<younder>
Postmodern, hunchentoot and spinneret is a killer combo. Grinding a interface that can generate a class for a table and also a input form and a select table in the browser.
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<younder>
Who thought CRUD could be fun?
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