jackdaniel changed the topic of #commonlisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | Wiki: <https://www.cliki.net> | IRC Logs: <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/libera/%23commonlisp> | Cookbook: <https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook> | Pastebin: <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/>
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<Kingsy> does (intern ..) always produce the same output regardless of the package from which its called?
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<_death> it takes an optional parameter, defaulting to the current package.. if you pass it a particular package, it will intern in that package.. of course, that still depends on the current state of that package
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<Kingsy> _death: cheers
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<skin> jkjkjjj
<aeth> vim?
<skin> sorry, wrong window D:
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<skin> yeah
<skin> Lisp+Vim=??? I guess we'll find out
<aeth> lim, call it lim
<aeth> don't tell the lem people
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<skin> haha
<skin> lim it is
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<younder> Just discovered how to stop sly mrepl from cutting off strings in the middle instead of printing the whole thing.
<younder> (setf (cdr (assoc 'slynk:*string-elision-length* slynk:*slynk-pprint-bindings*)) nil)
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<younder> I was doing some postmodern:sql to look at the code generated for a (postmodern:query (:create-table ..)) and having the string cut in middle was annoying.
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<younder> still trying to get the syntax right for foreign keys specs. (:foreign-key (region-id) (regions id)) doesn't work
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<ixelp> SabraOnTheHill - postmodern-intro
<younder> Otherwise very enlightening example code
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<beach> Question about package-local nicknames: In SBCL, if I do (DEFPACKAGE #:MUMBLE (:LOCAL-NICKNAMES (#:F #:FOO))) an error is signaled because the package FOO does not exist. But why is it that an attempt is made to resolve the name FOO to a package at this point, rather than when the package prefix F: is used?
<beach> Followup question: Would an implementation that resolves the name as suggested be a violation of the semantics (defined or expected) of package-local nicknames?
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<thuna`> beach: Wrt. the first question: if the package namespace is a mapping of strings to package objects and :local-nicknames adds the nickname to this namespace, then the easiest implementation is to resolve the package object immediately. I do not know if any of those assumptions are correct, but I would expect the reason to be something along those lines.
<thuna`> I don't see anything explicit in the spec for immediately resolving the package, but it's possible that 2.3.6 is violated otherwise. https://novaspec.org/cl/2_3_Interpretation_of_Tokens
<ixelp> 2.3 Interpretation of Tokens | Common Lisp Nova Spec
<beach> Thanks.
<beach> I mean, it is possible to create two different independent packages, say P and Q, and to refer to P from code with (IN-PACKAGE #:Q) and to Q from code with (IN-PACKAGE #:P), but this way of resolving package-local nicknames makes it harder to use package-local nicknames for P in Q and for Q in P.
<beach> It can be done by adding the local nickname(s) later, but that seems unnecessary to me.
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<beach> I guess there would be a difference in semantics if FOO is first created, then HELLO as above, and then FOO is deleted, and perhaps re-created differently.
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<beach> Interesting observation: In SBCL, if I create package AA then package BB with A as a local nickname for AA. Then I delete AA, and finally while in package BB I refer to a symbol A:... I get an error that package A does not exist. This suggests that the package-local prefix is NOT resolved when BB is created. Hmm!
<beach> Oh, I guess SBCL is using the possibility of marking the package itself so that things like FIND-SYMBOL fail.
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<scymtym> beach: i think the eager processing is necessary to support the SB-EXT:PACKAGE-LOCALLY-NICKNAMED-BY-LIST operator. i haven't checked whether that operator is part of the specification
<scymtym> or at least the update of the underlying data structure. then again, maybe that update could be deferred as well
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<beach> I see. Thanks.
<beach> And the other day I asked what the purpose of that function is, and nobody answered.
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<bike> i figured it was just by analogy with packaged-used-by-list.
<scymtym> probably the same as COMMON-LISP:PACKAGE-USED-BY-LIST? i can think of two uses: 1. preventing "used" packages from being deleted 2. for introspection
<beach> bike: Oh, that makes sense.
<scymtym> use 1. wouldn't necessarily justify a user-level operator, of course
<beach> scymtym: But I just showed an example of a package used as a local nickname being deleted in SBCL.
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<beach> No questions asked.
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<scymtym> didn't see that. seems inconsistent with the eager resolution and also with what USE-PACKAGE and DELETE-PACKAGE do
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<beach> Exactly.
<beach> But I know see how the implementation of package-local nicknames, as specified, is supposed to work.
<beach> So thanks for the discussion.
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<cage> i am bit puzzled about closures and bordeaux-threads, is OK to close over the lambda function that make a new thread?
<cage> something like (let ((foo ..)) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (format t "~a" foo))))
<cage> if i can understand correctly it does not works if 'foo' is special
<cage> but what happens if not?
<cage> i know that in SBCL the closure works but i fear this behaviour is not portable
<beach> I don't see why it wouldn't work.
<cage> beach: thanks, that is a relief!
<beach> cage: By the way, there is no such thing as a "lambda function". It is just a function. You would have the same situation if you did (let ((foo ...)) (defun bar () (format t ....))) and then used #'bar in your thread creation.
<cage> true! :)
<beach> It seems to me that this terminology has become common just because other programming languages only recently discovered that it is possible to create anonymous functions.
<cage> my cocerns was about the fact the lambda expression would be executed in another thread, swamned by the call to 'bt:make-thread'
<cage> *spawned
<cage> thanks beach!
<beach> I understand, and the function resulting from evaluating the lambda expression (not the lambda expression itself) will be executed in a different thread.
<scymtym> but note that the variable foo and everything reachable from its value is subject to potential race conditions. so the "parent" thread (which called MAKE-THREAD for the new thread) and the "child" thread must coordinate when changing those objects
<beach> cage: But the static environment of a function, including closed-over variables, is intrinsic to the function, and does not depend on the thread that executes it.
<cage> beach: this is an important information for me, i was a bit confused about that
<beach> I understand.
<cage> scymtym: thanks!
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<beach> With special variables, things are different, because bindings are dynamic.
<cage> for special variables and threads there is an example on the sbcl manual that was very useful for me
<beach> I see.
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<cage> basically i think i can do something like (let ((foo *foo*)) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (let ((*foo* foo)) ...))))
<beach> Sounds right.
<cage> scymtym: i did quite a bit of multhithread lately programming and race conditions are popping very often :)
<cage> beach: thanks :)
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<jcowan> ==================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================
<jcowan> ===============================================================================================]
<jcowan> arrgh, sorry about all that equality
<fe[nl]ix> cage: (bt2:make-thread (lambda () (format t "*FOO* = ~A" *foo*)) :initial-bindings `((*foo* . *foo*)))
<Lycurgus> nvr enuf
<cage> fe[nl]ix: thanks!
<cage> fe[nl]ix: are the two methods equivalent?
<cage> just out of curiosity i prefer the latter, by the way
<fe[nl]ix> yes. the initial bindings are evaluated in the parent thread so it's a convenient way to "inherit" dynanmic bindings
<fe[nl]ix> by the way, a reminder for everyone to migrate from package bordeaux-threads/bt to bordeaux-threads-2/bt2
<ixelp> Bordeaux Threads APIv2 | the fe[nl]ix blog
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<beach> fe[nl]ix: Minor issue: "I hope I can stabilise the it..."
<beach> fe[nl]ix: And I often recommend avoiding the genitive 's with non-proper nouns. So I would write "returning the return values of the thread function at all". This way, the important word comes first rather than last.
<beach> fe[nl]ix: "Support for ... is no longer supported". You may want to avoid one support there.
<fe[nl]ix> thanks
<beach> Sure. Looks good otherwise.
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<cage> fe[nl]ix: thanks again!
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<fe[nl]ix> I rewrote that as "in some cases returning only the first value or none at all"
<cage> fe[nl]ix: good reminder! I hope all i need to do would be change package qualifier from "bt" to "bt2" :)
<fe[nl]ix> in the majority of cases, that's all it will take
<cage> good :))
<beach> fe[nl]ix: Sounds good.
<fe[nl]ix> I got some messages from people that were relying on previously broken semantics of condvars, saying that their workaround broke
<fe[nl]ix> but the plain API now worked fine
<cage> fe[nl]ix: and thanks for this library, too :)
<fe[nl]ix> my pleasure
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<beach> In case someone wonders, the library was started by Dan Barlow when he was at the LSM/RMLL in Bordeaux. Hence the name. I forget the year exactly, but 2001 or so.
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<cage> beach: intereting!
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<cage> is he also started ASDF development?
<beach> Yes.
<beach> And McCLIM happened thanks to gilberth at LSM/RMLL as well.
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<beach> So did SBCL thread support, also by Dan Barlow. He may have had help.
<cage> there is a discussion on asdf mailing list about adding historical information about development in the documentation
<beach> I see.
<cage> the discussion started because Barlow wrote on a social network that asdf is turning 25 in about two years :)
<beach> I think it's a good idea to include development history.
<beach> OK, so that means 2001 I guess.
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<ixelp> [cclan-list] Another defsystem proposal | Comprehensive Common Lisp Archive Net
<cage> from 2001, indeed
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<reb> fe[nl]ix: I just tested swank-client and swank-crew with bordeaux-threads-v2 and all tests passed once I modified instances of (make-thread) and (make-thread "thread name") to (make-thread :name "thread name").
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<fe[nl]ix> nice
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<thuna`> What is roslisp, a package or an implementation? http://wiki.ros.org/roslisp
<bike> "Roslisp uses the SBCL Common Lisp implementation. It will be automatically installed during roslisp installation as a Debian package." https://wiki.ros.org/roslisp/Overview/Installation
<ixelp> roslisp/Overview/Installation - ROS Wiki
<thuna`> So it's an app/library/whatever built on top of sbcl?
<ixelp> ROS: Home
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<younder> Roslisp is just ONE interface to ROS (https://www.ros.org/) which interfaces many languages.
<thuna`> I got confused by "idiomatic Common Lisp" in "Roslisp is a client library for writing ROS nodes in idiomatic Common Lisp."
<thuna`> Alright, I see... I think
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<skin> Ros is a tool that some find controversial, but I'm big into ros.
<yitzi> Whats controversial about it?
<skin> There's this guy, Eitaro Fukamachi https://github.com/fukamachi
<ixelp> fukamachi (Eitaro Fukamachi) · GitHub
<skin> He's incredibly prolific. I like him because he makes tools around Common Lisp that are intended for battle hardened, production environments
<yitzi> Or buggy and without documentation depending on your experience.
<skin> It's just that the design decisions normally made around making production environments easy to debug and deploy are controversial here.
<skin> There is definitely that problem.
<skin> But take qlot for example. He made that too. It lets you create "lock files", locking down the precise versions of common lisp you ship in your thing
<skin> But people don't like this for some reason.
<skin> He also created "rove", a common lisp testing framework. I use it. It works fine, has a lot of stuff for code coverage, things you'd see in bigger shops.
<skin> I'm big into his ecosystem. https://skin.mataroa.blog/blog/release-common-lisp-on-your-first-day/ But I just wanted to point out that some aren't.
<ixelp> Release Common Lisp on Your First Day — Skin's Blog
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<Bubblegumdrop> 2nd buggy without documentation
<Bubblegumdrop> still good though...
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<younder> Rewiring your brain to think in data-parallel by learning APL. The best way to learn to write efficient GPU code even if you are going to program in CUDA or such.
<Bubblegumdrop> OpenGL shaders were pretty good for that too
<younder> April (APL sub-language in CL) will compile to use compute shaders under the hood.
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<younder> Correction 'will' means it is a work in progress. It doesn't do it at present
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<Kingsy> alright so I have just had a total wild goose chase. when you are working on macros. what is the best way of ensuring the code I am looking at in the file is the code that is in the repl? I have tried.. closing slime and opening a new slime connection, doing a quicklisp quickload again, and also recompiling
<Kingsy> for some reason it burst itno life when I addeda format statement above the place where the macro was being used.
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<josrr> Kingsy: I would either compile the macro and the forms that use it or reload the file.
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<Kingsy> josrr: if I were compiling again, does it amtter what order I do it in?
<josrr> first the macro, then the formas that uses it
<josrr> s/formas/forms/
<Kingsy> josrr: alright will remember that in the future.
<Kingsy> I would have thought closing slime and starting it again would do it though...
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<josrr> I think it should work too
<thuna`> I imagine a broken fasl could mess things up even with a new instance, although I don't remember how slimes handles it exactly
<thuna`> s/slimes/slime/
<younder> Postmodern, hunchentoot and spinneret is a killer combo. Grinding a interface that can generate a class for a table and also a input form and a select table in the browser.
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<younder> Who thought CRUD could be fun?
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