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<mfiano>
We're doing a Q&A with Shinmera about his new game, Kandria, to be released Wednesday on Steam. Ask questions for Shinmera here, or join the conference call: https://meet.jit.si/cl-sap
<ixelp>
Jitsi Meet
<dbotton>
Mazal Tov on all the amazing efforts and to enjoy their fruits! Don't know if could here. Have the circumcision for my new grandson now so cant join
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<mfiano>
I think it's good to have community building events once in a while. It's been too long since we had an OLM presentation. Shinmera brought up during the talk, that he'd like to see more people working together to solve the same problems instead of N 50% solutions. Game development is hard, but only because it's a million tiny problems. Other problems like McCLIM and SICL are similarly
<mfiano>
difficult. It might be worth organizing a quarterly or so meeting where we can discuss common efforts and see how we can collaborate better with each other...just a thought.
<Shinmera>
Sounds good to me, now we just need someone to put in the effort :)
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<beach>
Collaboration seems to be hard in practice. Not sure why.
<jackdaniel>
when everybody in the room thinks that they know better, it is hard to come up with a consensus ;)
<aeth>
the problem with CL being incredibly multiparadigm with a small community is that everyone might be using a completely different approach in their 50% solutions
<aeth>
most languages don't even have the metaprogramming facilities to even create the issue of e.g. "do you use ITERATE?"
<aeth>
some people swear by iterate, others can't even read it because it's its own thing... and it's something as basic as an iteration system
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<edgar-rft>
knowing everything is easy, everyone can do that - but I not only know everything, I also know everything *much* better
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<beach>
I am not even use whether the main problem is that there are N 50% solutions for a similar problem, or whether there are just way more problems than people to solve them.
<beach>
s/use/sure/
<beach>
mfiano: I haven't studies the situation, so can you give me some examples of different projects that could benefit from instead being a single one with more collaboration?
<mfiano>
I have a take on why the problem exists, and why I don't think it can be solved.
<mfiano>
But I am not against trying.
<beach>
Why do you think the problem exists?
<beach>
Also, now that I think about it, in the past there have been great examples of collaboration. When we (gilberth and me I guess) started work on McCLIM, there was a large number of people working on it, as can be seen from the "Project history" chapter in the documentation. And also when I started (first) Climacs, many people helped out. And that spun off ESA (a McCLIM library for Emacs Style Applications) which also had a lot of
<beach>
collaboration.
<beach>
So maybe the available people have changed? Or maybe there are no longer any projects that are sufficiently exciting to others?
<mfiano>
Because 1) CL is very flexible, and 2) code is merely a projection of ones' thoughts. It is therefor only natural that a flexible language where we can mold the language to our problem, or more specifically, the way we want to think about the problem. It is therefor often much easier to rewrite something yourself, than to untangle someone else's nested layers of abstractions that map to the way
<mfiano>
they think.
<beach>
mfiano: You are right about 2. I think it is documented that the amount of effort to understand someone's code is comparable to the amount of effort it takes to write it.
<beach>
However, in a well structured project, it should not be required for a collaborator to understand all the code.
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<mfiano>
Well-structured is subjective thought, and collaboration means compromising and such style conventions.
<mfiano>
That is the absolute key to collaborating.
<mfiano>
Apart from communication.
<mfiano>
s/and/on/
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<jackdaniel>
let's take testing frameworks as an example. common lisp has a lot of them, and most creations were rather ego-induced - i.e there was no architectural problem that couldn't be solved in existing libraries (i.e by contributing)
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<jackdaniel>
common lisp implementations is another one, every few years a new one pops up
<jackdaniel>
and there are of course unsolved problems with efforts spread all over the place - tool to write graphical applications are a great example. quiz: how many gui tools there are in ql? many; how many is finished? none; hurrey us
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<beach>
jackdaniel: I think you are being too modest about McCLIM. First, it is unique in that the core has no foreign code. It would be hard to accomplish that by collaborating on an FFI-based GUI toolkit. Second, while it is not "finished", it is quite usable, and it is being improved by the day. It is not even clear that a thing like that will ever be "finished".
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<mfiano>
When is software ever finished?
<mfiano>
If you think it is, you forgot to (incf *users*)
<dbotton>
beach - I think an effort to create a way to standardized ways to document would be a good group effort
<dbotton>
something more comprehensive than protocols
<mfiano>
CDRs?
<beach>
dbotton: Can you elaborate on that? I am not sure I understand what you are referring to.
<dbotton>
referring for "interfaces: to use libraries, classes, etc. things that in other languages headers exist for
<dbotton>
something to increase the speed to understand other peoples code
<beach>
dbotton: We have the concept of a "protocol". What else is needed to fulfill your requirement?
<dbotton>
much does not fit in to protocols
<beach>
Like what?
<dbotton>
exports from packages, classes
<beach>
I don't see that.
<mfiano>
I'm thinking there could be a need for some canonical location, such as a web site, where developers can post their design documents, and which others can ammend and collaborate on. That way, people interested in learning about the thought processes that went into a project, or the better understand the code in general, have a place to do so. Such a place could, of course, double as a place to
<mfiano>
find projects to collaborate on.
<beach>
dbotton: A protocol is precisely a bunch of functions and classes (or types more generally) where the functions take instances of the classes as some if their arguments.
<dbotton>
I will try and put something together at some point to illustrate what I mean, I am not the best at verbalizing my ideas, code is easier
<mfiano>
Perhaps a bad idea. idk
<dbotton>
my list of 2023 things to do is to figure out better ways to allow for CL use on large projects
<dbotton>
in languages like Ada with clear interfaces between modules a project can be divided up even in to 100s of developers
<mfiano>
I did bring this idea up about two years ago, and even offered to code everything up myself. I got exactly zero interest. That is the problem here.
<beach>
mfiano: The idea with a centralized thing I think has been tried in the past, and for some reason it doesn't seem to work.
<mfiano>
Which was that? And I don't think one example of the past can set any trend.
<beach>
I don't remember. But please go ahead. It certainly can't hurt to try.
<mfiano>
Point being it takes interest. You can't change what doesn't want to be changed. If everyone is happy, we don't need to change.
<splittist>
Or if everyone is unhappy in a different way
<mfiano>
This comes up often enough that I think that we can rule out "everyone" though.
<splittist>
I imagine people have suggested a 'lightning talk' edition of OLM in the past
<mfiano>
I already got one person who offered to help.
<mfiano>
It might be worth a try, if enough people are interested in using such a collaborative tool
<mfiano>
Kind of hard to tell unless people speak about it. Probably should make it louder than a IRC conversation on a boring Monday though.
<beach>
I think it would depend on the amount of work required by authors, compared to the expected benefits.
<mfiano>
Yes. Said authors should also weigh in the fact that this tool could be used to point newcomers to Lisp as "good first contributions". That in itself is a benefit, if we care about making onboarding easier.
<mfiano>
Your "suggested projects" page could be migrated to that format to get things rolling. Such a tool should be able to build a graph of goals (like pure CL desktop applications [email client, etc]), and visualize the disconnected components to get there efficiently.
<ixelp>
Pascal J. Bourguignon / Common Lisp Suggested Projects · GitLab
<pjb>
It's be nice if beach cloned it to his own git repos…
<mfiano>
We are talking more about a canonical platform/application
<pjb>
s/It's/It'd/
<mfiano>
At least that was my vision.
<beach>
pjb: It is fine with me if you maintain it.
<pjb>
ok
<mfiano>
Joking, but if this were Rust, we'd have 100 people working on it from the start, with an are-we-lispos-yet.com having an interactive infographic of a pyramid tracing our path to beach's described LispOS at the top.
<splittist>
Not to deny the deep strain of NIH in many lisp circles, but the Tao of Rust does seem to be ‘Problem that has been solved But Now in Rust!’
<mfiano>
:)
<louis77>
mfiano +1 for helping newcomers to find projects for "good first contributions".
<pve>
Think about what could be accomplished, how much money could be made, if everyone in this channel suddenly decided to focus on creating a single product. It doesn't really matter what it is, as long as it sells and everyone gets their fair share to fund their true passion projects. :)
<pve>
I mean there are some pretty smart people here..
<louis77>
many smart people means many different opinions
<pve>
has a loose collective ever managed to make a commercially successful product? :)
<dbotton>
splittist - rust didn't solve the issue - money did as phoe pointed out the other day
<dbotton>
you need a corporate need to produce the funds, a project is a crapshoot
<mfiano>
that would be an incredibly long mythical man month
<dbotton>
I don't think that there is a problem or something written
<dbotton>
smart people in time will always use Lisp
<dbotton>
prototyping, startups, etc
<mfiano>
dbotton: +1
<dbotton>
(wrong not written)
<mfiano>
I'm very happy for your new family by the way. Congrats!
<dbotton>
I am a very lucky man - 3 grandsons in a month
<dbotton>
one reason have not been around so much
<dbotton>
itching to soon
<mfiano>
Understandable :)
<louis77>
congrats dbotton
<dbotton>
was in NJ, now here in FL, and Friday probably in NY again
<mfiano>
I am in NY
<dbotton>
for the third boy
<dbotton>
cool, if I will be there more than a day or so will touch base
<mfiano>
Sadly I am 3 hours away from what most people consider "NY" :)
<dbotton>
maybe won't then :)
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<mfiano>
Nice town, suburban, base of Adirondacks.
<dbotton>
that 3 boys is actually ny 9th grandchild
<dbotton>
sorry typing off
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<dbotton>
someday I'd like to retire someplace rural but I am still young (started early) 49
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<dsx>
<dbotton> smart people in time will always use Lisp | Don't know if I'm smart, but so far prototyping with CL is a lot of pain. N 50% solutions, half of which don't work anymore because remote APIs changed 5 years ago.
<dsx>
With a-bit-more-than-basic building blocks missing, doing anything with any service means diy all the way.
<dsx>
Good way to learn language, bad way to produce working systems in some contexts.
<louis77>
dsx you mean solutions = libraries?
<dsx>
Yes
<louis77>
well if you refer to the 9 year old dropbox package, sure
<dsx>
Or AWS anything
<jackdaniel>
imo this is overly harsh, cl has plenty of useful libraries; not all imaginable libraries, but still more than "too little to build anything serious"
<louis77>
CL is not used that much to make sure there are up 2 date libraries for every remote system
<louis77>
but building rest clients is fairly easy
<jackdaniel>
implementing "aws anything" is just a matter of plugging existing api - it would be bad had cl not have way to access the internet or speak http and such
<jackdaniel>
but if your idea of building "production systems" is stitching existing libraries and not writing code along the way then sure
<dsx>
CL has plenty of wonderful things, which make DIY easier. The problem though is that I don't want to make another 50% solution to work with s3.
<NotThatRPG>
I found myself wishing that CL had good support for OpenAPI as a way to get CL applications to better interoperate (and for callers not to have to know they were talking to CL)
<dsx>
jackdaniel: on the surface, yes, it is just another rest. But the devil is in details. There is a lot more, that just talking to REST that needs to happen before and after the request.
<dsx>
My idea of — quoting dbotton — prototyping, startups, etc is exactly gluing existing libraries together to get something working in a couple days, and then see which parts have to be optimized
<dsx>
Writing as little code as possible to get it off the ground
* jackdaniel
shrugs; I'd still not equalte a missing library for a particular api to "diy all the way"
<dsx>
Ok, how about «DIY most of the way»?
<jackdaniel>
non comprehende hombre
<jackdaniel>
or 'comprendo', shouldn't pretend I know anything beyond my home language :)
<beach>
dsx: If Common Lisp is not suited to your needs, why do you use it?
<dsx>
beach: it's a first programming language that makes sense to me. BTW, language is fine. It really is. It's ecosystem's problem.
<dsx>
* its ecosystem
<dsx>
One could even make a case for it being hostile to the modern web/cloud development.
<beach>
Difficult choice there.
<dsx>
I know, right?
<NotThatRPG>
So far cl4py and py4cl have been my friend.
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<dsx>
NotThatRPG: I've been looking at that, CFFI and Co, but I don't know enough CL yet to be effective. How well does this approach work in your experience?
<louis77>
dsx you could use ABCL and make use of java libraries
<louis77>
to cover your specific needs
<dsx>
My plan B is to use Clojure, but I'm not from giving up on CL yet.
<louis77>
well you could ask in the discord channel if someone has written a library you need and maybe just didn't publish it
<NotThatRPG>
dsx: It works well for cases where the integration with python is pretty "chunky" -- the computation mostly stays on one side or another. Most recently I used cl4py to make an OpenAPI server for a CL program. Generated the OpenAPI code using openapi-generator for Python, then had cl4py invoke the CL program that actually did the computations.
<louis77>
but yes, CL has many very good library for general use cases but not for special use cases, like one of these new graph databases popping up every month
<NotThatRPG>
I would not use ABCL except for scripting a java application. As a CL implementation it is incredibly slow.
<louis77>
btw. found a startup claiming to build a product, add the buzzword "graph" to it and collect VC money
<NotThatRPG>
No experience with Clojure -- tried a long time ago, but the amount of Java infrastructure I needed to wade through fended me off. If you know Java already, though, something like Clojure or Scala might hit your sweet spot
<NotThatRPG>
If you *don't* know the java ecosystem intimately, I don't think Clojure is a win -- the learning overhead is huge, and you really need to know the ecosystem to get any payoff. IMO Python is a much more welcoming environment. You can ease into it in a way that's simply impossible for Java
<dsx>
I don't share this experience. I don't know Java, but it took me about an hour to write a basic web todo app in clojure.
<dsx>
That's one of the reasons I got to CL in a first place. I was and still am curious about the place it came from.
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<pjb>
dsx: well using clojure would let you use some java library for s3. You can do the same with abcl. You're not forced to use cl libraries. You can use foreign libraries.
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<louis77>
or use lispworks, it has a java interface and good cffi
<louis77>
from what i hear - haven't tried it
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<louis77>
with the free personal edition unfortunately you run out of heap space fast as soon as you load some dependencies via quicklisp
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<NotThatRPG>
dsx: I'm interested to hear that. The last time I tried (which was a while ago, it's true) there was all this guff about installing and configuring Maven and after fighting with that for a while, I gave up, since I didn't know what it was, nor did I want to learn.
<NotThatRPG>
How did you get started (maybe IM me, since it's OT for this forum)
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<NotThatRPG>
Here's an obscure question: inside an :around method, can I wrap a thunk around (call-next-method) and return that thunk? I'm not sure if it's not allowed (because it's lexically-scoped) or is allowed (because it's infinite extent)?
<NotThatRPG>
I guess I can't because it's behavior is undefined outside the method form....
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<pjb>
No, it's not allowed.
<pjb>
But I may be wrong, since clhs call-next-method says: "The function call-next-method has lexical scope and indefinite extent and can only be used within the body of a method defined by a method-defining form."
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<pjb>
It seems to be working as expected (in ccl): (in ccl)