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<kenran>
Is anyone of you using the croatoan library to create simple ncurses projects? Aside from my REPL issue (opened it on the GH page) I'm struggling with the understanding of how to use it (probably from my lack of Common Lisp experience). I'd appreciate any pointers, for instance to existing projects, or also advice on how to "discover" the usage of the API interactively (using Emacs).
<_death>
aren't there (many) examples in the test directory?
<kenran>
_death: I was just about to write... I discovered this right now as well. I thought these were supposed to be "just tests", but apparently there's lots to discover there. Thank you!
<contrapunctus>
kenran: you could probably contribute some documentation based on it. See https://diataxis.fr if you decide to.
<ixelp>
Diátaxis
<kenran>
Oh, interesting link!
<kenran>
I'm wondering how much of my failure to get started can be attributed to missing docs though, versus just lacking familiarity with Common Lisp and the ecosystem on my part. I assume most (all?) of it is the latter :) for instance, I'm struggling to "run" these tests, but at least now I understand why I get errors.
<kenran>
I'm slooooowly grokking it :)
<_death>
to run them you'd load system "croatoan-test", (in-package :de.anvi.croatoan.test) and call the functions (you need to start sbcl in a terminal and connect to it using slime)
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<kenran>
ah ty, I was missing the croatoan-test part (hacked it to work though. The game-of-life example is a little glitchy for me (black bars appearing from time to time), but cool, something working that I can read :)
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<louis77>
mh, everytime I have to fire up a ruby app on my dev machine that I did not touch for half a year, I spend at least 1 hour to try to get the correct ruby version compiled on my machine, have the exact proper bundler version and then hope that all the "Gems" are still compiling and running - which most often they do not - I really come to appreciate the prospect of eternal stability of Common Lisp.
<pjb>
Yep. And python is worse.
<louis77>
a few days ago I installed a CL lib, 9 years old and it ran with -- zero -- issues.
<kakuhen>
python at least somewhat mitigates it with virtualenv; ruby has no direct equivalent
<pve>
phoe: thanks, but that still allows for import, no?
<pve>
it does rule out "use"
<phoe>
hmmm
<beach>
pve: There can be no name for such a symbol, because the same symbol can be present in different packages as well.
<pve>
beach: huh, I guess that's true
<beach>
So the name would always have to be relative to a particular package.
<pve>
something like the "original symbols of package P"
<beach>
That does not work either, because a symbol can be uninterned and then interned in a different package so that its home package changes.
<pve>
oof
<phoe>
"symbol whose home package is P"
<beach>
There is no history preserved for such operations.
<beach>
Yes, what phoe says is the only thing that works.
<pve>
I'm just looking for a snazzy name for my function :)
<phoe>
at any given moment there is at most one home package for a symbol and that is the tightest guarantee you can get
<phoe>
pve: what does the function do?
<pve>
lists symbols in a package whose home package is that package
<beach>
Invent a term.
<pve>
"very internal" :)
<beach>
"familiar", "cozy", "couch potatoes".
<beach>
I often invent short names for phenomena that I need to use frequently.
<pve>
familiar could work
<phoe>
#'package-homed-symbols or something
<splittist>
homely (:
<pve>
even "housed symbols"
<beach>
Heh, yes, "homely".
<splittist>
chez soi, domestic
<beach>
I prefer to invent a new name and to explain what it is by a definition, than to try to invent a longer self-explanatory name.
<_death>
resident
<phoe>
_death: nice
<pve>
ah resident is pretty nice too
<pve>
ok, thanks everyone
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<pjb>
Symbols cannot be interned in several packages, since INTERN takes a string, not a symbol. A symbol can be imported in several packages, making it present in those packages, even if they're not his home package. (Of course, if the symbol didn't have a home package, the first import will "intern" it in the package).
<pjb>
pve: therefore I'd say that the term you want is just "interned".
<phoe>
pjb: interned adj. Trad. 1. (of a symbol) accessible[3] in any package. 2. (of a symbol in a specific package) present in that package.
<phoe>
I guess that's the problem
<pjb>
Yes. That's a problem.
<phoe>
because the first definition of interned is too broad and the second definition is also too broad
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<pjb>
Then symbols having that home package.
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<pjb>
pve: resident is nice, but you'll have to specify that definition.
<pjb>
EVIL is a resident symbol in the UMBRELLA package.
<ixelp>
Louis Brauer :emacs:: "Couldn't there be a #CommonLisp HyperSpec "light"…" - Emacs.ch
<pjb>
there's clhs in emacs.
<ldb>
the one provided by SLIME/SLY?
<pjb>
yes. Oh, he means, the look.
<ldb>
like, filtering keywords, what soever
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<ldb>
haha, I only use the index page in hypespec for finding things. Don't like do everything from emacs.
<pjb>
I tend to do that too.
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<ldb>
anyway, I think I can make "machine readable" version for dpANS when I have free time, probably in XML, so people want a web search interface or new hyperlinked PDF version can do whatever they want.
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<beach>
ldb: scymtym has already done all the hard work.
<ldb>
yes, the parser scymtym has made is mentioned in the comments of that post
<beach>
Good.
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<louis77>
ldb: that was me
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<louis77>
ldb: I started to compile "my own" Hyper spec index as a learning exercise and realized how great it would be to have the ability to group/sort the functions, declarations and variables by category/data type
<beach>
declarations?
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<louis77>
beach: that stuff you put into (declare ...) are called Declarations
<louis77>
beach: in the HyperSpec
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<beach>
But what is the category/data type of a declaration?
<beach>
And how would you be able to list all declarations. There is an infinite number possible.
<louis77>
that's obviously an imprecision on my part
<beach>
And that is probably why I don't understand what it is you plan to list that is related to declarations.
<louis77>
(TYPE ... ) is a declaration
<ldb>
you mean type signature of functions?
<louis77>
(IGNORE ...) is one
<jackdaniel>
declaraion identifiers what you try to say called is
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* jackdaniel
exits yoda mode and gets back to work
<beach>
Ah, OK.
<louis77>
In the HyperSpec it is called Declarations
<beach>
louis77: The "TYPE" is a declaration identifier as jackdaniel said.
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<Nilby>
figure 3-9 as a category
<louis77>
beach: good to know, so DECLARE + declaration identified = Declaration?
<louis77>
-d+r
<jackdaniel>
(declare (ignorable foo)) is called a declaration
<jackdaniel>
as beach pointed out there is an infinite number of possible declarations, because you may put anything as a name
<louis77>
Well then I guess the HyperSpec is imprecise: "A type declaration is valid in all declarations."
<jackdaniel>
perhaps what you mean is something what we could call a declaration template where arguments are some stand-in meaningless symbols or other markers
<ldb>
or BNF
<jackdaniel>
and right you are, entries for particular declaration identifiers list them as a declaration
<louis77>
anyway, I appreciate your passion for parsing out all the different overloads, but regarding my post I still think there is room for a more accessible HyperSpec _index_.
<louis77>
Bc. there _are_, as improbable that may sound, devs who are new to Common Lisp and the HyperSpec can be overwhelming for beginners.
<ldb>
louis77: have you used Dash (the searchable documentation set for programming languages)
<louis77>
yes, I have Dash but that helps only when you know what you are looking for
<Nilby>
the master index and the glossary are fairly good, but they aren't well laid out in html because people in the old days were concerned about pages being too big
<louis77>
What I want is an overview of functions that solve a particular problem
<louis77>
for example, all functions that have anything to do with STRING and if they are destructive or not
<louis77>
for every function a very short description so that I can quickly decide the possible candidate for my problem
<louis77>
in an academic background people may be used to spend 90% of the time reading and memorizing the hyperspec, but - let's say - as a hobbyist (using Lispworks license edition terms) - I would rather be productive sooner than later to get some sense of success.
<ldb>
for "a very short description" for every functions There is quick ref http://clqr.boundp.org
<ixelp>
Common Lisp Quick Reference
<Nilby>
when I use the dpans as emacs info it allows full text search too
<louis77>
that is a PDF
<beach>
louis77: Sounds useful. Go ahead! It might be trickier than it first seems though.
<jackdaniel>
I don't think that you need to justify what you are doing, some people here will agree with you and some won't
<ldb>
there is LaTeX source code, easier to process than dpANS
<jackdaniel>
and you owe nothing neither of them ,)
<beach>
ldb: It is even easier to use the parsed version of the dpANS that scymtym created.
<louis77>
jackdaniel: as I said, it was more an exercise for my own journey, because I feel frustrated when I have to lookup hyperspec for every link of code I write and I have a very bad memory.
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<jackdaniel>
well, common lisp standard is a standard, I wouldn't call it a handy reference manual
<Nilby>
I've seen some people have a .org CL cheatsheet
<jackdaniel>
but the same thing may be said about c standard and alike, it is just a different kind of document
<jackdaniel>
l1sp.org links also 'practical common lisp' chapter for symbols that are mentioned there, that would be more ekhm practical :)
<jackdaniel>
(then going through the standard that is)
<jackdaniel>
s/then/than/
<jackdaniel>
using scymtym's parser and pretty printing in a format of your choice would be probably much easier than writing incomplete and bug-ridden tex parser
<louis77>
by the time I would be finished with my manual solution I probably don't need it any more but that is a gain in itself :-)
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<_death>
you can also use something like https://github.com/gigamonkey/manifest (I have an old fork) which is not limited to standard CL symbols.. adding full-text search shouldn't be a big deal
<ixelp>
GitHub - gigamonkey/manifest: System for semi-automatically documenting Common Lisp packages.
<louis77>
In CL world there are so many great books that either teach entry level programming with Common Lisp (PCL) or are an overview of Common Lisp without the trillions of delicacies you will confront when you write actual production code
<ldb>
books involves non standard libraries can be outdated verysoon
<pjb>
louis77: in the hyperspec, you already have a dictionary per category aka chapter with a ToC for each.
<louis77>
There is a clear gap in literature that targets programmers with experience in conventional languages which are used to modern toolkits, assistive IDEs and good documentation.
<beach>
louis77: We do need a language reference, though. Probably in the form of a website. So if you want to start something like that, I would be happy to contribute.
<beach>
louis77: But I am not willing to do the markup and the organization.
<pjb>
louis77: but you're right the hyperspec is a specification/reference mostly for implementers. For newbie, it's harsh, and better tutorials exist.
<louis77>
it is a full reference of JavaScript with accessible navigation and search
<pjb>
You may write a new CL book for newbies.
<louis77>
so that you guys slate me for substituting "declaration identifiers" with "declarations" ? :-)
<pjb>
louis77: so you could indeed make a more userfriendly book.
<pjb>
or index.
* ldb
don't think there is even one existing book that teaches XSLT3.0 (and the upcoming 4.0), lol.
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<kagevf>
louis77: you might also want to check out this one: https://jtra.cz/stuff/lisp/sclr/index.html ... it has functions grouped by things like "math" "conses" "sequences (including strings)" and so on
<ixelp>
Simplified Common Lisp reference
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* ldb
welp seems the compiling to dpans-parser stuck
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<ldb>
I'll leave the building process on server, hopefully there is no memory leak bug
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