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<nij->
In the inspector, I can interact with a hash-table #<HASH-TABLE {701B90B183}>. It would be nice if I can interact programmatically with it from this point. However, #<..> is unreadable. Is there any hack that I can refer to it?
<Bike>
the slime inspector?
<nij->
I use sly, but I think they are almost the same.
<nij->
I don't mind using sbcl special construct. I know the address right? There should be a hacky way..?
<nij->
Address: {701B90B183}
<thuna`>
You can do it in slime by pressing RET on the output
<Bike>
never use the address of anything.
<thuna`>
I looked at sly but it doesn't seem like it looks
<thuna`>
s/looks/works/
<Bike>
in slime, e does slime-inspector-eval, and i believe in the evaluated form * is bound to the object being inspected.
<nij->
thuna could you plz M-x describe-key and see what function RET invokes?
<thuna`>
In slime?
<nij->
Yes
<Bike>
i don't know if eval is what you mean by "interact programmatically"
<thuna`>
slime-repl-return
<thuna`>
It's a dwim function it looks like
<thuna`>
The function it calls on an old input is slime-repl-grab-old-input
<nij->
Bike in sly * bounds to the last returned object in the mrepl..
<Bike>
i think nij- is talking about the inspector, not the repl.
<thuna`>
Oh, my bad in that case
<nij->
I did press e in the inspector.
<thuna`>
Also, * is a handy thing to know
<Bike>
the sly manual says e works like slime e.
<Bike>
so, if * is not bound to the inspected object, file a bug
<nij->
Oh wait! Bike, you're right.
<nij->
I used defvar instead of defparameter so it doesn't change *TMP*.
<Bike>
ah, i see.
<nij->
Yay. Thanks :D
<Bike>
no problemo.
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<mfiano>
I usually shrug off these AI things, but consider mind blown.
<hayley>
I got it to write a decent amount of a mark-sweep collector; when asked how it might prefetch, it came up with Boehm's prefetch-on-grey. But the results were subtly wrong unless I asked several follow-up questions.
<hayley>
"Can we have program synthesis?" "We have program synthesis at home" The program synthesis at home:
<pve>
_death: yep, also the "note" for contains-at-least-two-terms is wrong
<pve>
funny how the code is basically ok, but the explanations are off
<_death>
it's same old association + recurrence.. the results are impressive because the training dataset was huge and there's some "hole filling" (unlike the old rule based systems) but there's nothing new otherwise
<pve>
still, I think I need this inside emacs :)
<_death>
I guess a next step would be to have it continue learning from human feedback, although the underlying technology makes this a challenge
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<_death>
wait.. you said the code was ok for contains-at-least-two-terms? I guess you don't mean the last function
<_death>
ah, I had a different query in mind.. the query resolved the ambiguity
<pve>
_death: I was referring to the part about "... this function will return T if the input string contains the same term multiple times ..."
<pve>
I don't think the function it gave works like that
<pve>
uhh.. right? :)
<pve>
i.e. it needs two distinct terms to occur
<_death>
right.. and also the description for the last query is wrong.. you ask for at least two terms of the same kind (the code is right) but the description is about "two terms related to either wind power or solar power"
<pve>
ah, that's right, good catch
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<pve>
The other day I was wondering if it would be possible to export symbols by capitalizing them (as in some other languages). I think I finally got it to work in such a way that everything still works smoothly in slime :)
<pve>
before, jump to definition would complain about mismatched forms or something, but by placing the export last in the file, jump to definition works as usual
<pve>
this is something I might consider using for one-package-per-file, where I sometimes end up juggling the exports a bit too much for my taste
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<scymtym>
pve: i'm not sure what MAKE-BUFFERING-READTABLE does but MAP-TREE-LEAVES looks like it would choke on something like #1=(… #1# …) in the source code
<pve>
I always thought doing what buffering-readtable is doing was impossible, so I'm pretty proud that I even made it that far
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<scymtym>
you can extend the approach by keeping a table of already processed/currently being processed nodes. for circular structure, you can insert markers and replace them in a fixup step. not trivial but all CL readers manage to do it
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<pve>
scymtym: ok that's good to hear
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<scymtym>
is the buffering readtable restricted to a set of characters specified at creation time?
<pve>
yeah it takes a :characters argument, with a default value of all standard-char
<scymtym>
thanks for confirming
<pjb>
pve: symbols are case sensitive. If you want to export (defstruct |Foo| |field| field |fiEld|), you will have to obtain: (:export "COPY-Foo" "FIELD" "Foo" "Foo-FIELD" "Foo-P" "Foo-fiEld" "Foo-field" "MAKE-Foo" "fiEld" "field")
<pjb>
s/"FIELD"//
<pve>
pjb: good point about the struct slots
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<pve>
pjb: This hack is currently incompatible with the |...| syntax. It could possibly work with a custom function for #\|, but I haven't really thought about it.
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<pve>
basically if |...| is encountered, take the symbol as-is, don't export, don't upcase, and let the user deal with exporting that symbol if necessary.
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<kathe>
hi all. :)
<kathe>
is phoe around?
<kathe>
just want to let phoe know that i've just placed an order for his book. :)
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<phoe>
<3
<phoe>
most glad to hear this, hope it serves you well
<kathe>
knowing what-ever little i know of you, i am sure it will serve me well. :)
<kathe>
are you open to receiving suggestions for more titles on common lisp?
<phoe>
yes, but I'm unlikely to implement them in the near future
<kathe>
i wouldn't consider 5 years out as the near future. ;)
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<kathe>
anyways, after you finish contemplating over my previous request for clos book, would you please consider thinking about a book which teaches how to implement an algorithm the common lisp way.
<kathe>
dang, it should have ended with a question-mark.
<kathe>
i really need to get going with irssi instead of ircii.
<phoe>
beach already has something along these lines as a long-standing WIP
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<kathe>
oh, cool. hadn't know about it. i've been away studying hard.
<kathe>
okay, i gotta go now, time to fill water in the overhead tanks.
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<phoe>
kathe: there is also a book by vseloved
<phoe>
progalgs in lisp
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<beach>
"Vsevolod" I think it is, no?
<phoe>
yes, but vseloved is his nickname
<beach>
Oh! Nice one!
<beach>
I didn't know he hangs out on IRC.
<phoe>
well, AFAIK he doesn't
<beach>
Heh, OK.
<pdietz>
Some of us do so only occasionally.
<beach>
Indeed.
<sbenitezb_>
ChatGPT: "write a common lisp program that implements the functionality of chatgpt"
<sbenitezb_>
Waiting for the answer :D
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<dbotton>
sbenitezb_: (load "eliza.lisp")
<jackdaniel>
I have a rare stroke of inspiration, big programs (ue systems) should ve bloaded!
<jackdaniel>
(asdf:bload "mcclim") ;)
<phoe>
nice
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<nij->
sbenitezb_> It will likely just confidently gives you a wrong answer.
<nij->
I asked ChatGPT to compute the homotopy groups of spheres, and then it gives me a function that computes factorial n!.
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<sbenitezb_>
It's still computing an answer, I suppose that's what the triple loading dots are for, unless it expects more input from me
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<nij->
It's very good at holding a conversation, as long as the questions are somehow asked on the internet before. For example, things like "What's your take on a certain issue." However, it cannot go deeper. What it has to offer were almost all written somewhere in the internet.
<nij->
In particular, it cannot do simple math and simple logical deduction correctly.
<mfiano>
It seems to have a bias towards wanting to start a new subject, and fails to understand clues in the query to retain the context.
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<Josh_2>
Overloaded methods would be quite useful, saves having to use a plist or something similar in a &rest
<Josh_2>
or a special args variable
<thuna`>
Is there a simple way to add custom forms to DECLARE? (Just within a single macro is fine too)
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<Bike>
thuna`: what do you mean?
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<thuna`>
Bike: I have a DEFINE-* macro, and I wanted the arguments' types to be written using (DECLARE (ARGUMENT-TYPE...)).
<Bike>
in a different way from how that usually works?
<Bike>
you can do (defun foo (bar) (declare (fixnum bar)) ...), but you presumably mean something else. do you want the literal symbol ARGUMENT-TYPE?
<thuna`>
Yeah, I guess I should have made that clear. The form is (ARGUMENT-TYPE type symbol...)
<thuna`>
Type doesn't have anything to do with normal common lisp types
<Bike>
okay. since this is your defining macro, you can just do whatever processing you want to do yourself. something like alexandria:parse-body will let you get the declarations, and then you can remove and process the argument-type declarations, passing the rest onto the usual lisp semantics.
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<thuna`>
Hmm, I guess that is the way to go. Alright then.
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<thuna`>
This mentions SWANK documentation but does anyone have a link? I searched a bit but nothing I found mentioned indentation. https://shinmera.github.io/trivial-indent/
<pjb>
thuna`: ie. just declare your custom declarations.
<pjb>
thuna`: then of course, it may be useful to write some tool to process them too.
<pjb>
thuna`: there are several forms that allow declarations, so if you want to support your new declaration in general, you may have to shadow and redefine several macros and special operators.
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<pjb>
thuna`: or your tools may read and process the code separately.
<pjb>
then you need a code walker.
<thuna`>
Won't the tool I write be what it would be if I hadn't proclaimed it?
<thuna`>
Is there a benefit to proclaiming it?
<Bike>
proclaiming it will tell lisp to ignore your declaration, so you won't need to remove it
<Bike>
(i forgot about cl:declaration)
<pjb>
The above declaim is equivalent to (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (proclaim '(declaration argument-type)))
<pjb>
plus some compilation-unit stuff. A simple PROCLAIM may not be enough.
<thuna`>
Ah, that is pretty useful
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<Shinmera>
thuna`: Check the slime-indentation.el source
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<thuna`>
Shinmera: slime-indentation.el doesn't contain much, did you mean slime-cl-indent.el?
<Shinmera>
possibly, I forget the exact name
<Shinmera>
the indentation rules are pretty obscure
<thuna`>
Does trivial-indent support functions as well?
<Shinmera>
and worse, if you inject a bad one, slime just stops looking at *all* custom indentation rules.
<Shinmera>
idunno, try it
<thuna`>
Alright
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<thuna`>
Wait... no, it probably doesn't work.
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<thuna`>
This is extremely confusing. https://0x0.st/odvG.txt calls maybe-defun when it's trying to indent but I have no idea what STATE to expect. It looks like it depends on where the cursor is but that makes no sense to me.
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<thuna`>
Oh. This... works? The information is duplicated and I have no idea how to load this with LOAD-SYSTEM but... it works! https://0x0.st/odvR.txt
<nij->
thuna` Wow, you can define how much to indent lisp codes in emacs?
<thuna`>
But it's not what indents the code. It just tells slime (or sly, in this case) what the indentation is and that handles the indentation (with some help on the elisp side)
<thuna`>
Shinmera: :import-from but I guess that's the same thing.
<Shinmera>
not really, but still tsk tsk
<mfiano>
another tsk tsk from me.
<thuna`>
Shinmera: By the way, does this work with sly by design or just randomly
<Shinmera>
look at the source and the answers shall reveal itself
<Shinmera>
*answer
<mfiano>
Sly support was added afterwards at some point
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<thuna`>
I won't complain either way. Also, why are you tsk-tsking me?
<Shinmera>
because of the import
<thuna`>
Well... why?
<Shinmera>
it makes it hard to tell what's your code and what's code from a library you're using.
<Shinmera>
it can also let you accidentally import symbols that are no longer exported
<Shinmera>
and override definitions
<thuna`>
Hm
<Shinmera>
It's not likely in this case, but for other names it can lead to accidental overrides or other things, especially if the library changes under your feet (and you might not notice).
<Shinmera>
so in general, just don't do it.
<mfiano>
There's no reason to with PLN
<Shinmera>
yeah
<thuna`>
PLN?
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<mfiano>
package-local nicknames
<jackdaniel>
polish currency
<thuna`>
Oh, right
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<White_Flame>
Polish Language Nicknames
<mfiano>
The first thing I do when I read someone's code is the package definition(s). That tells me if I want to try reading the rest, or to click the skip button :)
* edgar-rft
goes polishing his nicknames
<thuna`>
Do I :USE trivial-package-local-nicknames? :)
<Shinmera>
you don't need it at all
<mfiano>
There is no reason to use it at all
<mfiano>
It's baked into every implementation that matters that has had a release in the past decade.
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<NotThatRPG>
Is there any library that would allow me to automate interactions with a little JavaScript app running in a browser?
<jcowan>
NotThatRPG: In the last decade it almost seems like there is no other kind of library. The trouble is, the abstractions all suck.
<NotThatRPG>
Like invoke code in it? The obvious solution is to set up a server, but that's a heavy lift for just using a browser to display information.
<NotThatRPG>
I don't even need an abstraction! Since it's my web app, I'd be happy to just throw JavaScript at it to execute.
<jcowan>
Well, being a trivial HTTP server isn't hard; I've written any number of programs in various languages to do so. You don't need all the bells, whistles, and gongs of HTTP when you are just communicating with localhost.
<NotThatRPG>
jcowan: Yes, that's true.
<jcowan>
For one thing, you can be single-threaded
<jcowan>
"typically said with a pronounced and ironic accent on the `gongs'"
<jcowan>
"Nobody seems to know what distinguishes a bell from a whistle."
<jcowan>
(both from the Jargon File)
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<NotThatRPG>
jcowan: I think the biggest hassle with doing this from a lisp server is that the server-side of HTTP is passive, and I would like to drive from the lisp side, not the browser. Yes, there's AJAX and all that, but ... yuck
<NotThatRPG>
I have a transcript in lisp I want to visualize, and a web app that can do the visualization and gee, I'd really love to just be able to throw some JavaScript code at the browser and have it do it's thing
<NotThatRPG>
s/it's/its/
<jcowan>
That's where the single-threadedness comes in. That is, there is conceptually just a single thread of control encompassing both server and client. The Lisp program just constructs its data and waits for a request from the browser (whose contents are irrelvant) and then sends out the visualization data as a response.
<Josh_2>
Websockets :thinking:
<jcowan>
In a normal use of browsers, the browser might make any request at any time. Here the browser is being constrained only to make a trivial request like "next page" (or whatever)
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<NotThatRPG>
Josh_2: I don't *think* there's a web sockets library for CL. But I haven't looked in a few years, maybe there is now...
<Josh_2>
There is
<NotThatRPG>
Neat!
<Josh_2>
fukamachi has one, and there is a websocket driver for hunchentoot
<Josh_2>
I can vouch for the former
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<White_Flame>
none of the websockets are 100% complete, but will work for different base cases
<White_Flame>
and yeah, a lot of my initial JS code is opening up a websocket and calling eval() on the string that it receives
<NotThatRPG>
Another random question: I wanted to read some data out of a compressed lisp file (the file is huge). chipz:make-decompressing-stream seemed like just the ticket, but it doesn't seem to support operations like `read` and `read-line`, only primitive reads.
<White_Flame>
you mean it isn't a stream?
<NotThatRPG>
It seems to be a stream with element-type byte or something
<White_Flame>
(unsigned-byte 8) probably
<White_Flame>
flexi-streams can convert those into character streams
<NotThatRPG>
read-byte and read-sequence are the only supported interfaces.
<NotThatRPG>
White_Flame: Somehow on SBCL for me (with the decompressing stream as your <byte-stream>) that is failing with an error in refill-stream-input-buffer
<White_Flame>
oh, is this a stream where you write into the decompressor?
<NotThatRPG>
No, I'm just reading. But maybe I inadvertently made a bidirectional stream.
<pve>
Josh_2: incongruent-methods needs a better design, I wouldn't recommend it in its current state
<Josh_2>
pve: thanks :)
<White_Flame>
NotThatRPG: what error?
<NotThatRPG>
White_Flame: The value #\Us is not of type (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) when setting an element of (ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8)) -- inside chipz read stream input buffer (looks like it reads material from file to input buffer and then pushes it to an output buffer -- filling the output buffer calls filling the input buffer
<White_Flame>
oh, need :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) in the make-flexi-stream, too, to tell it what sort of stream it's dealing with
<NotThatRPG>
But actually the error comes in SB-INT code SB-IMPL::OPTIMIZED-DATA-VECTOR-SET
<White_Flame>
hmm, I wonder where it's getting the #\U from
<NotThatRPG>
Looks like that's what it's reading from the file?
<White_Flame>
because it shoudl theoretically be all bytes? bytes read from the compressed stuff, decompressed bytes coming out from it?
<White_Flame>
well, you probably opened your compressed file incorrectly then
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<NotThatRPG>
Yes. I think I'm being too delicate with my disk. I'm just going to uncompress this thing and read from the uncompressed thing. This smells like a rabbit hole. Thanks for the advice, thoug
<White_Flame>
you're probably opening that file as text instead of as binary
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<pve>
Josh_2: I'd like to make it better someday, but right now the code is lika from a pve 10 years younger, and you know how that can be :)
<Josh_2>
:joy:
<Josh_2>
Yep
<nij->
Hmm - When a restart is invoked, I got thrown into a inspector/debugger. With slime/sly, I can actually walk through the frames, and evaluate forms I like at those frames VIA the emacs minibuffer.
<nij->
However, emacs minibuffer isn't as comfortable as the mrepl.. so I wonder if I have the option to jump into another mrepl that represents the selected frame?
<Josh_2>
You are put into the debugger when a condition isn't handled
<Josh_2>
Or its invoked manually ofc
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