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<Shinmera>
NotThatRPG_away: people have written extensions for my documentation-utils package that allows them to write docstrings with extra formatting that is stored separately, while a "compiled down" version is used for the standard docstring.
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<seok>
What's the simplest way to send keystrokes and mouse events to windows applications on Lisp? win32 api through cffi?
<psvensson>
shinmera: sorry for an OOB question, but I just tried to donate to the kandira kickstarted, and wasn't able to. It looks like the support alternatives ended in November 2022?
<Shinmera>
the kickstarter concluded in July
<Shinmera>
if you want to buy the game you'll have to wait until next week
<Shinmera>
seok: yes
<Shinmera>
seok: you'll also likely need to interact with COM, so have a look at the com-on library.
<seok>
uh, the library's name is com-on?
<Shinmera>
yes
<seok>
because google wants to fix it to common lisp if I search for com-on lisp : ) inconvenient
<seok>
do you have a link to the library?
<jackdaniel>
that's a definitive proof that google wants to tank lisp
<psvensson>
OK, sorry, I just read an artcile you've written and thought it was current. Oh well :) Yes, I will.
<Shinmera>
Colleen: tell seok look up com-on
<Colleen>
seok: Unknown archive "com-on".
<Shinmera>
ech
<jackdaniel>
seok: type shimukroameko common lisp and browser repositories - it is like bernard cumbersnatch
<seok>
why do I need to fiddle with COM? Can't I just call SendKey()?
<Shinmera>
I said likely
<Shinmera>
I don't actually know what you have to do
<seok>
ah just click(x y) and press(key)
<seok>
on a window app
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<utis>
what's the best library for handling cli arguments? i think unix-options has this (to me) undesirable thing with making short options from the initials of long options
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<jackdaniel>
I'm personally using net.didierverna.clon
<utis>
thanks
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<utis>
is that supposed to be straightforwardly quicklispable? i'm getting `System "net.didierverna.clon.termio" not found'
<utis>
i did try installing .setup as well, but that didn't let me install net...clon but i was able to install clon.core
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<utis>
unless there's a command in setup that's supposed to be run
<pjb>
utis: find where there's an occurence of net.didierverna.clon.termio and patch it to be net.didierverna.clon.setup.termio
<pjb>
grep may be useful.
<jackdaniel>
pjb: you are speaking nonsense - setup systems are to decide whether termio should be loaded
<jackdaniel>
they are part of defsystem-depends-on
<pjb>
jackdaniel: check by paste.
<jackdaniel>
apparently either your quick-apropos is broken, or something else doesn't work with your host
<jackdaniel>
there is an appropriate system in the termio directory
<jackdaniel>
termio extension may be configured to not be loaded in the setup system, but since I'm not on a dev support duty I'll leave it at that
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<pjb>
You're right, there's a /Users/pjb/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/clon-1.0b25/termio/net.didierverna.clon.termio.asd:29:(defsystem :net.didierverna.clon.termio
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<beach>
If I do this in SBCL: (defpackage #:aa (:use) (:export #:xx)) then (defpackage #:bb (:use) (:export #:xx)) then (defpackage #:cc (:use #:aa #:bb)) I get a name conflict, which is normal. But the restart TAKE-NEW says "Make newly exposed symbol accessible in CC, uninterning old ones". But isn't the term "unintern" used only for symbols that are present? The symbol named "XX" is not present in CC, it is inherited from AA.
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<jackdaniel>
doesn't "interned" mean - accessible in the package (not necessarily that the package is the home package of a symbol)?
<beach>
Let me check... I was looking at the definition of the function UNINTERN, and only present symbols can be uninterned.
<beach>
... as far as I can tell.
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<beach>
Heh, "interned" has both definitions.
<beach>
Well, let's see.
<jackdaniel>
and glossary has: "uninterned adj. (of a symbol) not accessible in any package; i.e., not interned[1]. "
<jackdaniel>
so "uninterning" may very well mean - make the symbol uninterned - not "call cl:unintern"
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<beach>
But how do you make an inherited symbol uninterned as a result of a name conflict?
<beach>
It would be strange to remove symbol XX from AA as a result of a name conflict in CC.
<jackdaniel>
you make the symbol uninterned (i.e not accessible) in CC
<beach>
But you just said "in any package".
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<beach>
I don't see a way to make a symbol S not accessible in some package P that uses a package Q that exports S, other than making a different a symbol with the same name a S a shadowing symbol in P.
<jackdaniel>
I think that saying "uninterning from X" narrows the definition to some package, but yes, the wording may be confusing
<jackdaniel>
s/some package/_some_ package/
<beach>
OK, but then, you can't unintern an inherited symbol.
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<beach>
Because then we are on definition 2 of "interned".
<jackdaniel>
if we take the definition from 'interned', that the symbol is 'accessible in CC', then reversing the operation would be 'making it not accessible in CC' - whether by shadowing it or some other magical method is an implementation detail
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<pjb>
beach: "unintern removes symbol from package. If symbol is present in package, it is removed from package and also from package's shadowing symbols list if it is present there. If package is the home package for symbol, symbol is made to have no home package. Symbol may continue to be accessible in package by inheritance."
<pjb>
beach: I think, indeed, that shadow would be in order in the case presented. This is what you'd write in the defpackage form to resolve it in the source, so IMO that's also what the restart should do.
<beach>
pjb: Exactly! Thanks!
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<beach>
Ah, but that's not quite what SBCL does either. Oh well.
<beach>
Here is a slightly modified scenario: (defpackage #:aa (:use) (:export #:xx)) (defpackage #:bb (:use) (:export #:xx)) (defpackage #:cc (:use) (:export #:xx)) (defpackage #:dd (:use #:aa #:bb #:cc)). I think this is why USE-PACKAGE takes a list of packages to use. The conflict can't reasonably be resolved one used package at a time.
<beach>
So then the question is, how do you design the restarts for resolving the conflict(s)?
<beach>
If I understand things right, SBCL considers one package at a time, and you can choose to keep the symbol from the previously considered package. Then the symbol becomes a shadowing symbol. Or you can choose the symbol from the newly considered package, but then the symbol remains in limbo so that a choice can be made between the second and the third used package.
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<beach>
I can't think of a set of restarts that could reasonably be invoked programmatically in order to solve name conflicts between more than two used packages. And even with two used packages, say P and Q, it is possible that it is desirable to take symbol S1 from P and symbol S2 from Q.
<beach>
And, if there is no reasonable set of restarts that can be invoked programmatically, then a single interactive restart that gives a choice between all used packages for each conflicting symbol seems to be better than doing them pairwise.
<beach>
And USE-PACKAGE doesn't require that a correctable error be signaled. I am starting to understand why.
<Bike>
i figured with more than two packages, you could have a programmatic restart where you specify what package to import the symbol from
<Bike>
i have an issue for this in clasp, but it's low priority
<beach>
Sure, but which symbol? S1 or S2?
<Bike>
you'd do it one symbol at a time
<beach>
Sure, but then only interactively. I can't see how to do that programmatically in a way that would be better than just doing the SHADOWING-IMPORT programmatically.
<Bike>
well, like i said i figure the restart could take the package. i don't actually know when you'd be programatically restarting from any of these errors in practice, anyway
<pjb>
If you prepare a single restart to handle the case of a single symbol name at once, then it will have to have some interactive input/parameter to select the wanted package. You'd also want to provide restarts to apply the same selection to all the remaining conflicts.
<beach>
Sure. But it seems to me that interactive restarts are useful mostly if there is a very long calculation that needs some user help after some computation time. I don't see the package operations as being used that way.
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<beach>
Or am I missing some interesting use of interactive restarts?
<phoe>
beach: I don't think the "long calculation" is the only case where restarts are useful
<beach>
Of course.
<pjb>
beach: they're useful when you use use-package actually. If you get conflicts from a defpackage form, then having a full report of the problems would be enough, since you will have to edit the sources.
<phoe>
for trivial things, if (foobarbza 42) ends up signaling UNDEFINED-FUNCTION, I can see a useful restart that allows me to specify FOOBARBAZ as the name of the function that should instead be called with the same arguments as an alternative to hitting Q and correcting the REPL request
<pjb>
The long computation would be all the export/shadow/import calls you'd have to do at the REPL before use-package could work without conflicts.
<beach>
Now, I think if I had the scenario above with AA, BB, CC, and DD, I think I would add a SHADOWING-IMPORT-FROM option to the DD definition, and evaluate the form again.
<phoe>
pjb: yes
<beach>
Othwerwise, I would have to do the interactive restart each time.
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<beach>
Anyway, thanks for the discussion.
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<Josh_2>
:trumpet: Hi :trumpet:
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