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<pve>
Hi! Are there any schools that teach introduction to programming with CL? I'd be interested in seeing course slides, whether they augment CL-USER with any utilities or how the initial environment is set up in general for the students.
<phoe>
don't think so
<pve>
that's a shame
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<pve>
Has anyone here tried to teach someone programming with CL?
<phoe>
I kinda sorta did
<phoe>
if private 1-on-1 sessions count
<pve>
Absolutely! That's great. Did you identify any pain points, specifically with respect to the environment setup?
<pve>
Like emacs or no emacs, interactive development or non-interactive.
<pve>
by non-interactive I mean like loading some file from the shell over and over with "sbcl --non-interactive ..."
<phoe>
setting up emacs and slime is kind of a pain and no one is paid enough to keep maintaining an up-to-date portacle-like environment
<phoe>
there are plugins for other editors popping up, such as intellij recently, but I have not explored their quality
<phoe>
also I'd always go interactive
<phoe>
because teaching lisp without interactiveness would be like teaching c without mutability
<phoe>
it's possible and you can write meaningful programs in it but you're missing THE element that makes working with the language really meaningful
<pve>
right, but with the debugger enabled or the repl wrapped in a "print backtrace on error and return to the repl" handler?
<phoe>
normal slime setup with the debugger enabled
<hayley>
phoe: I tried to convince C++ students to use continuation passing style in order to skirt rules on not being able to use break, continue, goto or multiple returns, go no success.
<phoe>
I have no idea why you'd set up for anything less than the debugger being available - it's a normal situation in CL
<phoe>
hayley: my condolences, and my condolences
<pve>
i'm not sure either, but I could image someone with zero programming experience being unnecessarily confused by it
<phoe>
someone with zero programming experience would be even better to teach than someone who knows another lang
<phoe>
"Anyone could learn Lisp in one day, except that if they already knew Fortran, it would take three days." - Marvin Minsky
<hayley>
You can learn Lisp in a day, but if you know C already, it's more like three days.
<hayley>
Darnit.
<pve>
hehe
<phoe>
but yeah, if they have no experience, then they should quickly get used to the fact that if they screw up somewhere then Lisp will halt the program and notify them and then ask how to proceed
<phoe>
which is the definition of the Lisp debugger
<hayley>
Fine, a different quote then.
<hayley>
"There is a common myth in software development that parallel programming is hard. This would come as a surprise to Alan Kay, who was able to teach an actor-model language to young children, with which they wrote working programs with more than 200 threads."
<phoe>
;; I honestly love Erlang and all BEAM languages because of this, but it's kinda offtopic
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<hayley>
Yes, the next sentence mentions Erlang. But this sentence mentions teaching.
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<pve>
phoe: did you make any "libraries" the you used from the get-go, or just start with a bare cl-user?
<phoe>
pve: what do you mean by "make"
<pve>
i mean "write", like some convenience stuff specifically for the occasion
<phoe>
oh, nope, just pure CL + quicklisp whenever necessary
<phoe>
if anything, I tend to make my own foo package to work in to avoid naming conflicts, because CL-USER can and will have impl-defined imports
<phoe>
so evaluating and testing code is fine in CL-USER, but defining your own stuff should best be done in your own package
<pve>
oh sure
<pve>
phoe: did this person have prior programming experience?
<phoe>
yes
<pve>
How much, if I may ask?
<phoe>
AFAIK enough to be a junior professional in other languages
<phoe>
didn't pry too much though
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<pve>
Ok! I hope your tutoring was well-received :)
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<phoe>
I hope the same :D
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<pjb>
pve: You may have a look at my rc files: http://gitlab.com/informatimago/rc common.lisp is loaded from the rc files of the various implementations, and it sets up my REPL environment.
<beach>
So it means that more than 100 students per year during 15 years were exposed to Common Lisp.
<beach>
The lectures were done live on a laptop using SLIME.
<beach>
It was a very good way of doing it, because it immediately prompted questions that could then be answered by more interactions.
<hayley>
Should I have expected much quality when "learning" LISP [sic] in the mandatory AI course at my old university?
<pve>
beach: That's really interesting. So you recommended emacs and slime to the students as well?
<pve>
was it a mandatory course btw?
<beach>
At the time, Emacs was taught to everyone the second year, so that was not an issue.
<beach>
Yes, mandatory.
<pve>
beach: Ok, I'm getting pulled away now, but I'll check that course page out later. Thanks.
<beach>
The second-year course at the time was called something like "using computer systems", and had things like Unix shell, Emacs, GDB, maybe CVS at the time, make, ...
<beach>
Pleasure.
<hayley>
(Seems that hasn't changed since I was at the university; everything else seemingly has changed at least twice now.)
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<hayley>
beach: At risk of going off topic; where should I study after I complete my bachelor's degree? There is a large gap between what you describe, and what I have experienced at the two universities I've studied at.
<beach>
What do I describe?
<beach>
I would go to someplace in Europe where teaching is in English and cost of enrollment is modest for foreigners. Not just for the learning experience, but for all the rest too.
<hayley>
I shouldn't have been so specific, as I will hopefully have a degree in hand at the end of this year, and thus wouldn't be an undergraduate.
<beach>
I think I understood that.
<beach>
If you can stand the climate, then Scandinavia is good. Otherwise some Mediterranean country or Germany. Don't know about Ireland. That could be an option too.
<hayley>
Right, thanks.
<beach>
I don't recommend the UK. It is too expensive these days, and it is no longer a member of the EU.
<beach>
I mean, there is nothing wrong with universities in the UK, so if you have a stipend or something similar, sure, why not. And you should definitely apply for those. Whenever you move like that, there is usually someone willing to pay for it.
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<Reinhilde>
Also, if you aren't a cis, white European, heterosexual with a passable Aussie, British, Irish, American or Canadian dialect, I wouldn't recommend GB. I wouldn't recommend NI to anyone because it's a frozen conflict zone.
<pve>
beach: I'm curious about any frequent complaints you might have gotten from the students about CL or SLIME. Can you recall any? I guess I mostly mean problems that even the 20% tripped over, not the "parentheses, booh"-category, although that could be interesting too.
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<beach>
pve: Hard to say. We taught this at the university where the students mostly believe what we say. When we taught the same thing at the engineering school there were many more protests, because the students there think they know better than the tenured professors.
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<beach>
pve: So I don't recall any complaints about the language, as in not used in industry, or slow or... because they just mostly don't know any of that.
<beach>
At the engineering school, on the other hand, they "know" that Lisp is dead, interpreted, slow, nowhere used, etc.
<pve>
hah! of course :)
<beach>
So I don't think we had any particular problems that we didn't also have in other courses.
<pve>
well I guess that's good
<beach>
Yes, I agree.
<beach>
I mean, there are always a few students that "know" how to "program" before they come to us, and they are comparable to the engineering students, but they are typically in a minority.
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<pve>
You didn't happen to have a "project" course? Something where the students focus on one program with a bit bigger scope?
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<pve>
I mean where they used CL..
<beach>
Many courses have a small project aspect, but the big project course is in the masters program, so year 4.
<pve>
ok, did you get any big projects written in CL?
<beach>
Regularly, one or two groups (of 4) would then choose a Common Lisp project that we (usually my favorite coauthor) proposed.
<pve>
Cool!
<beach>
More recently, not so much usable code. But in the past, several students worked on McCLIM, as you can read in the appendix of the documentation on the project history.
<beach>
One group of students wrote "Eclipse" which is an X11 window manager.
<pve>
Thanks. Does the project course have a home page also? I mean something that might have a list of past projects..
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<beach>
I doubt it.
<beach>
The undergraduate course hasn't been taught for some time.
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<pve>
Alright, I'm going to have a look at that eclipse. I take it the students who made it were pretty motivated?
<beach>
Definitely.
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<beach>
Also check out McCLIM. A lot of work was done by students in the early days.
<jackdaniel>
you won't graduate if it is not done by monday :)
<pve>
very nostalgic screenshots btw :)
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<beach>
pve: What is the reason for your interest?
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<pve>
beach: It's not serious yet, but I've been thinking that it might be fun to have some kind of local programmers' "user group" in my (small) hometown, where coders or people interested in coding could get together, socialize over a beer and show each other what they're doing etc. So I was just pondering what my contribution could be if this happens.
<pve>
I don't know if "user group" is the correct term here.
<beach>
Sounds good. What town is it?
<pve>
Porvoo (Borgå), about 50km east of Helsinki.
<beach>
Interesting! Good luck!
<pve>
Thanks! Only problem is, I have no idea how many programmers or young future-programmers there are here :)
<beach>
Heh, yes, I see.
<jackdaniel>
pve: call it 'Collective of enLightened people'
<pve>
jackdaniel: I'll add it to the list :)
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<pve>
So if a bunch of kids interested in coding were to show up, it might make sense to organize a small workshop to "introduce" programming. So naturally I'm curious if CL could be relevant here.
<pve>
I use quotes because I'm not a real teacher.
<beach>
Sounds like something worth trying.
<pve>
If only old people show up, that's cool too, because I could still show them CL and they could show me Ruby/Java/Python etc.
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<_death>
pve: I looked at Porvoo not long ago.. will be visiting .fi later this year (as well as ELS, btw)
<pve>
Although I suppose one would have to be careful when showing kids how to program, so they don't turn into one of those students who "know" how to "program" :)
<pve>
_death: Yay, it's great in the summer.
<beach>
pve: I don't think you can influence that very much. It's a mindset that is very hard to change.
<pve>
phew
<jackdaniel>
what is the threshold of 'knowing how to program'?
<jackdaniel>
we can take that it is a blub thing - if you know better, then the other guys doesn't know how to program
<beach>
"threshold"? I don't think anybody is trying to quantify it.
<jackdaniel>
that's my point - knowing more makes you only less wrong, so there is always a perspective when one may look at you as someone who "know" how to "program"
<beach>
I was referring to this phenomenon where some high school kid finds a computer and figures out how to use some programming language, like C, to make the computer do various things, after which this kid is convinced that there is nothing more to learn, so refuses to accept any training that goes against that acquired knowledge.
<jackdaniel>
I see
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<NotThatRPG>
beach: I was wondering about the new CL reader that can retain comments, etc. Could you resupply the pointer? I seem to have lost it (sorry). Also, do you think it would be a reasonable tool for making a "redshank2"? I was trying to bring Redshank back to life, and trying to wrangle CL code on the emacs side is quite inelegant. So if it's possible to manipulate CL source in CL without losing the non-CL bits (like
<ixelp>
GitHub - s-expressionists/Eclector: A portable Common Lisp reader that is highly customizable, can recover from errors a [...]
<NotThatRPG>
Thanks phoe !
<phoe>
I'm not beach but I'm an eclector fan
* phoe
googles redshank though
<phoe>
I see the repo but I don't see any sort of documentation or feature list, is there anything out there?
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<NotThatRPG>
If you want you could look at my fork, but let me get stuff pushed back up. Redshank wasn't really working when I picked it up. But it does some refactoring that ... well it seems like there should be refactoring in CL. Why should those Java and Python nerds get all the tool support?
<NotThatRPG>
Interacting with s-expressions as strings is gross, though.
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<phoe>
yes, very
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<NotThatRPG>
The presentation about Eclector has a bunch of place holders for demonstrations. Does anyone know if those demos are on line?
<NotThatRPG>
I mean the source code -- not necessarily runnables!
<phoe>
scymtym might be the one to poke
<NotThatRPG>
(´x`)b
<NotThatRPG>
(That, I am told, is the "thumb's up" emoticon)
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* jackdaniel
squints eyes
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<copec>
👍
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