ArmbianHelper changed the topic of #armbian to: armbian - Linux for ARM development boards | www.armbian.com | Github: github.com/armbian | Commits: #armbian-commits | Developer talk: #armbian-devel | Forum/Twitter feed: #armbian-rss | Type 'help' for help | Logs: -> irc.armbian.com
<stipa>
nah, we're confusing nvidia ampere and some other company by the same name
<stipa>
that does arm cpus
alekksander has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
<c0rnelius>
Actually waveform might have some insight into the latest Ubuntu releases and upcoming. He is the fella who does the Pi images for them, so I would suspect he may have some insight into the packaging and ways around it if any.
TRS-80 has quit [Quit: WeeChat 3.0]
archetech has joined #armbian
mhel has quit [Quit: Leaving]
geonicz has joined #armbian
geonicz has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
PPAChao has joined #armbian
archetyp has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
PPA has quit [*.net *.split]
archetyp has joined #armbian
maknho has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
geonicz has joined #armbian
geonicz has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
geonicz_ has joined #armbian
geonicz has joined #armbian
BeachyHead has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
BeachyHead has joined #armbian
maknho has joined #armbian
geonicz has quit []
geonicz_ has quit []
geonicz has joined #armbian
dubis has joined #armbian
dubis has quit [Client Quit]
alekksander has joined #armbian
Dagger has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
alekksander has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
alekksander has joined #armbian
threenp has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
samythemany has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
samythemany has joined #armbian
threenp has joined #armbian
alekksander has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
argonautx has joined #armbian
alekksander has joined #armbian
alekksander has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
alekksander has joined #armbian
alekksander has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
alekksander has joined #armbian
alekksander has quit [Client Quit]
alekksander has joined #armbian
alekksander has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
qqqhhh8615 has joined #armbian
qqqhhh861 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
qqqhhh8615 is now known as qqqhhh861
alekksander has joined #armbian
Dagger has joined #armbian
alekksander has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
alekksander has joined #armbian
alekksander has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
alekksander has joined #armbian
crabbedhaloablut has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
geonicz has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
crabbedhaloablut has joined #armbian
Michi[m] has quit [Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM]
farooqkz[m] has quit [Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM]
minnix[m] has quit [Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM]
mrjpaxton[m] has quit [Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM]
kprasadvnsi has quit [Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM]
psydroid has quit [Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM]
solderfumes has quit [Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM]
marshall[m] has quit [Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM]
nekomancer[m] has quit [Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM]
unmanbearpig has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
unmanbearpig has joined #armbian
geonicz has joined #armbian
geonicz has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
solderfumes has joined #armbian
Michi[m] has joined #armbian
minnix[m] has joined #armbian
nekomancer[m] has joined #armbian
mrjpaxton[m] has joined #armbian
kprasadvnsi has joined #armbian
marshall[m] has joined #armbian
farooqkz[m] has joined #armbian
geonicz has joined #armbian
geonicz has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
geonicz has joined #armbian
geonicz has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
geonicz has joined #armbian
Michi[m] has quit [Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000]
mrjpaxton[m] has quit [Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000]
nekomancer[m] has quit [Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000]
unmanbearpig has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
crabbedhaloablut has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
unmanbearpig has joined #armbian
crabbedhaloablut has joined #armbian
TRS-80 has joined #armbian
geonicz has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
geonicz has joined #armbian
geonicz has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
alekksander has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
geonicz has joined #armbian
geonicz has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
geonicz has joined #armbian
val has joined #armbian
<TRS-80>
IgorPec: Are you still going to be my friend if I try my hand at maintaining ROCKPro64? :D
psydroid has joined #armbian
<TRS-80>
I gather that you have disdain for them, and not without reason I suppose.
<TRS-80>
I don't want to speak for him, but I get the feelin Igor doesn't care for PINE64 very much, because they don't support any software development. Or rather, they only support Manjaro/KDE or whoever their preferred projects are.
<TRS-80>
But I had been looking at RK3399 devices for a long, long time (years) and finally they got mature enough and I bought ROCKPro64, mainly because that was only one with standard PCIE slot, which make it easy to throw standard SATA adapter card in there for NAS usage (my use case).
<TRS-80>
But maybe my approach is wrong and I should instead purchase different hardware after all.
<buZz>
i want a RK3399 with working USB-C AltModeDP
<buZz>
and battery power
<buZz>
so i can build a portable VR setup :)
threenp has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
samythemany has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
samythemany has joined #armbian
threenp has joined #armbian
<stipa>
buZz: what about pine phone pro?
<buZz>
stipa: i dont know, might be? i'd rather do a SBC
<stipa>
you get the screen...
<stipa>
screens*
<buZz>
i dont need any screens
<buZz>
i have a LG R100 which is a USB-C powered and connected VR glasses
<stipa>
maybe you would get shorter latency from cpu to screen wit the sphone
<stipa>
if not, i agree with your idea
<stipa>
with vr i would hook only some non real time stuff or sensors to usb
<stipa>
if screen on pine phone pro is connected directly to the pci lane you can't beat that
<stipa>
and trust me, VR code will be badly coded
<stipa>
non optimized crap
<stipa>
and, try to guess who will be to blame beacuse of the unusable hardware
<c0rnelius>
TRS-80: The NanoPC-T4 is pretty sweet
<c0rnelius>
Costly though
marco44 has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb2+b1 - https://znc.in]
<buZz>
stipa: i dont care about the screen
<buZz>
i want no screen on this device :D everything through VR or SSH
marco44 has joined #armbian
<buZz>
also i learned long ago i can survive pretty heavy latency on IO
<buZz>
(like, when my only storage device was a taperecorder)
unmanbearpig has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
<stipa>
buZz: that rk stuff would be cool for an AR game
<stipa>
rockchip*
<stipa>
i guess it could run a multiplayer game
unmanbearpig has joined #armbian
threenp has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
archetech has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
samythemany has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
samythemany has joined #armbian
threenp has joined #armbian
<TRS-80>
c0rnelius: I don't mind paying more for something that is supported. I know they have support Armbian over the years, too. This is the crux of my internal debate in fact. Maybe I make a forum post about.
<TRS-80>
It was honestly disappointing the reaction to post I made on PINE64 forum about support ending, almost all replies were just recommending other distros. :(
<TRS-80>
Makes me wonder if these people even deserve Nice Things in the first place. :/
<TRS-80>
I guess I would just need some sort of M.2 to PCIE (or whatever the standard PHY is actually called) adapter... Which was what I was originally trying to avoid, but...
<c0rnelius>
I'm not a fan of Pine and haven't been for years.
<Werner>
pbp is pretty nice
<yangmobi1e>
I bought Pine64, when they were kickstarting the project. it was their first device and look everything they offer nowdays...
<yangmobi1e>
i dont own any other of their products
<Werner>
i owned pbp for a few month but wasn't satified and decided to give it away to somebody who'd appreciate it
<TRS-80>
c0rnelius: I don't think Igor is either, he sort of gave me what for some weeks ago when I said I was becoming more and more a fan of their products, I guess I am starting to understand why now.
<TRS-80>
Werner: I was getting ready to buy one in fact (PBP) and I already own PinePhone, ROCKPro64, and was thinking about PineTab and PineTime even. :/
<c0rnelius>
TRS-80: Yeap
geonicz has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<Werner>
If you have questions about pbp I suggest to ask NicoD since he own one and has in active use (?)
<c0rnelius>
As a company I think they suck and support is shit.
<yangmobi1e>
i will try to buy pinebook pro, we now have an official maintainer for it in armbian ;)
<TRS-80>
in fact it was lanefu raving about it some months ago which got me looking at PINE64 at all in the first place, so I blame him. :p
<TRS-80>
yangmobi1e: Well I was considering becoming maintainer for ROCKPro64 but the debate I am having with myself is: do they deserve that?
<TRS-80>
c0rnelius: But I mean, that is sort of their stated business model? Getting devices out there into people's hands for cheap?
<yangmobi1e>
i dont know the details regarding their company....whats the problem, i didnt read baclog
<TRS-80>
They were talking about making a more retail oriented store, with a little better support, for selling devices a little more money. But as it is now, they are very clear it's for hackers / enthusiasts only.
<c0rnelius>
TRS-80: I guess so. But the overall product is subpar a lot and flawed.
<stipa>
c0rnelius: do it for the users!
<TRS-80>
c0rnelius: Right, then there is that. Which I am slowly learning.
<stipa>
TRS-80: ***
<c0rnelius>
Friendlyarm seem to at least make pretty solid products.
<TRS-80>
Although, OTOH, they do seem to be making some quite innovative devices, including PinePhone, I know it's early days but I do want them to succeed if only to push GNU/Linux forward on phone, tablet, and SBC... (I mean bigger picture here)
<TRS-80>
c0rnelius: Yeah that's what I hear.
<TRS-80>
I think you have to me a little crazy to make a Linux phone, so same reason I do not really fault Purism guy even though he certainly get a lot of criticism (some of it surely deserved)
<stipa>
the thing with all that stuff which hackers should make functional is that it's the only way to put linux on that crap
<c0rnelius>
I think its a pipe dream, which is why Ubuntu just kind of gave up on all that.
<stipa>
for some reason profit is standing in the way
<c0rnelius>
Its very niche
geonicz has joined #armbian
<TRS-80>
My thought process is more like, if none of these succeed, we will be doomed to the duopoly forever...
<TRS-80>
c0rnelius: PINE64 have shipped like 30k phones, which certainly is "niche" in terms of Android/iOS numbers, but that is still quite a lot of phones
geonicz has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Redentor has joined #armbian
<c0rnelius>
I think to geek out on a Linux phone or Tablet would be awesome. But I don't believe its gonna take off anytime soon in a real way.
<buZz>
c0rnelius: Motorola Droid 4
<buZz>
has qwerty, is shitcheap on ebay , and run 5.11.x
<buZz>
plus accelerated 3D
<buZz>
hth
<buZz>
:)
<lanefu>
TRS-80: i'm always accountable for pain
<buZz>
about 4x cheaper than cheapest pinephone model
<c0rnelius>
Motorola use to be awesome. Then google bought them, took all the patents and sold them to Lenovo.
<TRS-80>
c0rnelius: I have been daily driving my PinePhone for few months already. Yes there are niggles, but it does (mostly) work.
<yangmobi1e>
how many apps exist for pinephone?
archetech has joined #armbian
<buZz>
c0rnelius: this device predates that deal
<buZz>
its basically a TI phone
<TRS-80>
yangmobi1e: How many exist for GNU/Linux? ;)
<IgorPec>
heya
<TRS-80>
there he is
<buZz>
that motorola now has >40000 apps existing
<buZz>
full debian repo
<c0rnelius>
I just buy Xiaomi phones now. Generally nice, unlocked and work in like every country. Plus there is always Lineage.
<buZz>
plus ppl porting maemo 5 apps to 'maemo leste' aka maemo 7
<buZz>
i dont like android one bit
<TRS-80>
c0rnelius: I have been a LineageOS / CyanogenMod user for many years, they were the only thing making Android bearable. But they will not be supporting VoLTE which means they will become obsolete unless they change stance on that. THE END.
<c0rnelius>
I have it installed on a few devices. But I don't keep track with the politics on their end.
<TRS-80>
Not only that, Android been getting more and more obnoxious over the years as they continue to lock down the platform, now that they control >80% of market (more?)
<IgorPec>
trs-80: yeah, not maintained armbian means providing the same level of support as other distros
<IgorPec>
but average joe won't get that
<c0rnelius>
Could just get an old flip burner phone :)
<buZz>
for actual phoning i use a dumb phone
<TRS-80>
c0rnelius: I did a fairly thorough research (again) somewhat recently when my old s5 got real flaky, that is when I decided to go with PP as least bad option; even flip phones are running Android now!
<buZz>
all my 'smartphones' only get wifi as i trust those radios completely zero
<TRS-80>
IgorPec: I guess my moral quandry was more like: should I learn and become maintainer for ROCKPro64 because I already own it, or do PINE64 not deserve that and maybe I just buy another device instead, one who support Armbian and software development generally?
<c0rnelius>
I honestly stopped caring about the privacy concerns around phones. If they really wanted too, they could find me regardless of my stupid phone or not.
* TRS-80
thought very seriously about pledging towards Librem 5 even now, mainly because they are actually paying developes since years now
<buZz>
'i dont care about freedom of speech because i have nothing to say'
<buZz>
thats a common opinion, c0rnelius
<c0rnelius>
At this point "its whatever".
<TRS-80>
thank you buZz :)
<buZz>
:)
<buZz>
(C) snowden
<IgorPec>
well, maintaining those older boards is usually not difficult. more critical is for new ones
<buZz>
IgorPec: for that motorola, maemo-leste even got TI to release new drivers for the GPU
<TRS-80>
c0rnelius: It's not all or nothing proposition, of course they can triangulate you on towers, but there is just an obnoxious amount of spyware in Android these days. I was just playing with some cheap Onn tablet and I could barely use it for all the ads.
<IgorPec>
manjaro is all about pine and vice versa ;)
<TRS-80>
^ yeah, it's sickening
<buZz>
maemo-leste is a faster UI on pinephone, btw
<TRS-80>
hence "maybe they do not deserve Nice Things(tm)"
<buZz>
'triangulate on tower' isnt 'remotely open your mic without user intervention'
<buZz>
:D
<stipa>
android an ios is just bloatware with government tracking as gratis
<buZz>
but i used to work in telecom for many years
<c0rnelius>
TRS-80: Yeap. It sucks. Last phone I got was the Mi Mix 2. Which does have some stupid china garbage on it, but most of it can be removed and really... I don't care what China knows :)
<buZz>
it removed any trust i ever had in wireless telephony
<c0rnelius>
I don't live there
<IgorPec>
yeah, well, we made rules for support to be relived from "will you support this"
<IgorPec>
this is constant question, over and over again. generally.
<IgorPec>
and supporting rockpro64 is not a big deal. this is matured hardware in every way
<IgorPec>
it has problems and it might (will) break on upgrades
<IgorPec>
if hw is not supported, we don't even notice or do anything about
<stipa>
c0rnelius: there's that software that governments love, it's a virus that enables tracking without you even realising it
<c0rnelius>
You wanna be free. disconnect from the web completely.
<steev>
^^
<stipa>
why simply not remove crap from the web
<stipa>
and make it free
<TRS-80>
You guys are missing the point with your "all or nothing: proposition; what buZz said above is more to my point
<TRS-80>
specifically,
<TRS-80>
> 'triangulate on tower' isnt 'remotely open your mic without user intervention'
<ikmaak>
that is like 'bad people drink water, forbid water!'
<TRS-80>
ikmaak: yes thank you
<c0rnelius>
How do you think goverments keep black ops projects on the down low? The servers that have the data saved on them are not connected to an outside source. Its all intranet and a person actually goes by hand to retrieve said information off the server and then delivers it.
<buZz>
'does airgap exist'
<buZz>
yes it does
<TRS-80>
as I tell normal people all the time, the conventional wisdom is that you need to trade privacy to use modern tech but that's not really true; but you will need to start using F/LOSS instead...
<buZz>
c0rnelius: so makes you maybe think, if gov doesnt trust wireless data, why should YOU ?
<c0rnelius>
Any information people are hacking is obviously info governments don't consider important enough.
<buZz>
'hacking' isnt computercriminalbehaviour
<c0rnelius>
I don't trust it. But I don't trust anyone :)
<buZz>
it -can- be , sure, just like how breathing air could be illegal
<TRS-80>
I am not trying to resist a nation state level adversary (yet, lol) just elimiate some of lower hanging fruit from Google building a profile on me easily
<TRS-80>
What is threat surface for 400, Alex?
geonicz has joined #armbian
BeachyHead has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<ikmaak>
strange how someone can do all kinds of crimes, but if they happen with the help of a computer, you are always a hacker. not even a hacking burglar or hacker extrotionist....
<stipa>
if you're not a criminal then you could call yourself a computer scientist
<stipa>
instead of a hacker
<TRS-80>
ikmaak: It's all part of the FUD narrative, plus Boomers who make the laws don't know anything about tech actually, so it's just "lock em up"!
BeachyHead has joined #armbian
<ikmaak>
it would be cool if we could do this with woodworking tools. if i would rob someone with a saw, i would just be called a carpenter.
<TRS-80>
lol
<stipa>
TRS-80: you could block them out but their ideas are the law
<stipa>
and yours are threat to the society
<TRS-80>
not to society, only their power structure ;)
<stipa>
don't you worry, you would be very soon one to blame for their idoticy
<TRS-80>
COME AND TAKE THEM
<TRS-80>
we are, in fact, renting an RV in a couple weeks to go scout out hilly parts of TN, looking for a place to buy land
<TRS-80>
I know I been talking about for years, but it is becoming reality :)
<stipa>
seems like a lot of land to choose from
<TRS-80>
yes, USA is big country, hence the need to go reconnoiter
<stipa>
what would be a perfect location for you?
<TRS-80>
far from population centers and major roads, in hills/mountains, with own water supply, also I have kin folk up there; TN also has no state income tax and is centrally located to my usual $dayjob
<stipa>
what about a pool?
<TRS-80>
TN also seem pretty good politically and demographically, esp. in these crazy (and getting crazier) times, their governor only slightly less based than FL one :)
<TRS-80>
I don't care about stuff like that, I will build my own pole barn, house, and whatever else I need
<stipa>
cool man
<TRS-80>
Maybe a natural pool / pond, I was briefly interested in those, but it is low priority, we will see.
<stipa>
well, you build what neighbours have, it usually goes like that
<stipa>
who has a bigger pool and stuff like that
<TRS-80>
Oh I don't care about "keeping up with the Joneses" as we say here. Rather that I would not want to stand out too much. Gray man concept, the preppers call it.
<TRS-80>
But I am hoping to get enough land where my neighbors cannot see me anyway. :)
<stipa>
lol,
<stipa>
well, i'm a gray guy and neighbours are always jelous for some reason
<TRS-80>
maybe you are less "gray" than you think? :)
<TRS-80>
most people are jealous and petty I realized, don't worry too much
<stipa>
i'm more of a dark gray
<stipa>
i mean, that shit never stops
<stipa>
it's never good enough
<stipa>
the problem is when you fuck it all
<stipa>
then it's the biggest problem because no one is like you
<stipa>
then every neighbour hates you
<stipa>
if you're like friendly you just accumulate stuff you don't need
<stipa>
like pool and stuff beacause your neighbour have it you also need to have it
<stipa>
if you don't you're out of game
<TRS-80>
Oh when you asked me about criteria, I did not state it, but neighbors are important! It's hard to figure out people when you first meet them but I am OK at it, so I am looking somewhere with not too many people I don't think I would get along with.
<TRS-80>
Realizing of course that I will be the newcomer / stranger and have some work to do to ingratiate myself into the local community.
geonicz has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<TRS-80>
And I don't want to bring the city with me out to the country, anyway.
geonicz has joined #armbian
<TRS-80>
I prefer rural areas, by far.
<stipa>
if there are shops nearby with all you need you're golden
<stipa>
hospitals...
<stipa>
usual stuff you take for granted in a town
<TRS-80>
I want to be more self sufficent, keep some chickens, etc. Already I only go grocery shopping once every few weeks, so this is not a problem for me (I don't go to convenience store every hour for example).
<stipa>
yeah, even if it's on remote location you want some luxury of a town
<TRS-80>
I have not been to doctor nor had medical insurance for decades, I am not such a fan of our modern medical system anyway. I am well aware of implications of acute trauma first aid, etc. and taking steps to mitigate those needs (we have RN in family and several military veterans as well)
<TRS-80>
Most things we solve with simple, traditional home remedies.
<stipa>
yeah, i understand, but you have other stuff like breaking bones and stuff
<stipa>
cutting yourself...
<TRS-80>
well, just don't be a dumb ass
<TRS-80>
:)
<stipa>
well, you never know, especially on a remote site
<stipa>
where you have to do some physical work
<TRS-80>
I injured myself many times in work over the years, not worried about it
<TRS-80>
as I told my helper as I was getting stitched up one time, "I don't know what you are laughing about, we are going back to work after this!" :D
<TRS-80>
You just have to be smart and aware of your location, and a little more careful is all. But this is also normal situation in my $dayjob as well.
<stipa>
i love security even if i think that i'm perfect
<stipa>
it bit me many times
<TRS-80>
I imagine most people do, which is why cities are so popular. :)
<TRS-80>
I have had enough of this traffic, high costs, and lack of freedom however. To each their own.
<stipa>
TRS-80: i completely understand what you're after
<stipa>
and you'll get it for sure
<stipa>
i've given my input
<stipa>
maybe some of it is of use to you
<TRS-80>
stipa: I have thought about all these things (and many more) but I appreciate your thoughts, friend :)
<stipa>
yw mate
<stipa>
TRS-80: paste some links with pics of land you'll visit
<TRS-80>
Well, we are looking at few different areas, also location will be more or less classified. ;)
<TRS-80>
When you come to visit I will give you the address. :)
<stipa>
yeah, who knows
<TRS-80>
Or just pick you up at airport. And then you will need to be blindfolded and turn off all devices. Ha! :D
<stipa>
maybe in some other life
<stipa>
but the world is a small place
archetech has quit [Quit: Leaving]
archetech has joined #armbian
archetech has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<TRS-80>
Anyway, I guess my point about rockpro64 was more like I start to turn a bit sour about PINE64 so called "community" after seeing reaction to my post there calling for maintainers, and also just hanging around there in general. Bunch of kids on Discord it seems like to me.
archetech has joined #armbian
<stipa>
TRS-80: i guess there simply isn't enough talent or the hardware is bogus and it's not possible to make it working
<stipa>
in reality people are very stupid
<TRS-80>
Based on Igor comment I don't even think it would be hard to keep working, maybe even I could maage it (with help) but question is: should I?
<TRS-80>
manage
<TRS-80>
it works already, it is Supported device
<TRS-80>
but that will end due to recent cutbacks
<TRS-80>
soon to be, rather
<IgorPec>
well, not sure if any other community is better in this. except ours, since its many developers around
<IgorPec>
and developers care differently then customer minded free everything seeking end user
<TRS-80>
yeah their community seems like one of those, like RPi, catering to end user
<IgorPec>
yes. they can't sell us much of the bullshit
<TRS-80>
I/we debate about this anyway, when talking about managing community, what is the right balance?
<IgorPec>
right balance. we will try to make it
<IgorPec>
other option is to make a spinoff
<TRS-80>
like SteeMan post about levels in community and bringing people up the steps from noob -> user -> power user -> dev
<IgorPec>
yes
<IgorPec>
that is essential ground for changes - i think we are tuned to that direction.
<IgorPec>
i hope that it will work out as we hope it will
<TRS-80>
I think its necessary for long term sustainability
<TRS-80>
even if it means tolerating some dumb questions some times lol
<TRS-80>
hopefully we can get to those people before you do :D
<IgorPec>
we are not goint to eliminate them, lowering them is already a succes
geonicz has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<IgorPec>
people should be aware where is the line of expecatations
<IgorPec>
but its hard to achieve that.
<TRS-80>
I have no problem with this, but you know how the kids are nowadays, some take offense to that, its ridiculous IMO
alekksander has joined #armbian
<TRS-80>
OTOH these "kids" are future of project (and in larget sense, society) so what is the answer? This in not just ? for our project you know
<stipa>
the current state of things scares noobs away
<stipa>
which is normal
<TRS-80>
I would say defense mechanism, even
<TRS-80>
noobs are fine as long as they show they are at least trying
<IgorPec>
if we succesfully divide community into noobs and experts it should work
<IgorPec>
anyway we have many mechanisms to do this. just doing it right is critical
<IgorPec>
if we manage to keep tv boxes relatively problem free - for us - we should achieve this as well
<TRS-80>
maybe I need to just spend more time on forums again running interference
<TRS-80>
I was thinking to myself the other day, as much potential hassle as TV boxes is, the few there who relish a challenge are very likely to become future developers, have you ever thought about that IgorPec ? :)
geonicz has joined #armbian
<TRS-80>
ok maybe "very" is a stretch... as there is a huge learning curve
<IgorPec>
yes i know that
<TRS-80>
just an interesting contradiction was all I was musing
<IgorPec>
in the new world order ... strictly supporting a few of specific devices, things could change
<IgorPec>
since everything that is not supported is basically on the same level
<stipa>
theres just a shitload of those tv boxes screaming for linux with DE
<IgorPec>
and?
<stipa>
it's a waste
<stipa>
for landfields
<IgorPec>
waste of our time 1st
<stipa>
maybe not, it's green to put linux on those
<stipa>
they'll stay longer in homes and not in a landfield
<stipa>
with android crap on them
<IgorPec>
stipa: you are on the consumer side of armbian
<stipa>
yeah, i'm user level
<IgorPec>
didn't meant that way
<stipa>
oh
<IgorPec>
well, ok, you would like to use linux, where everything works and ofc for free
<IgorPec>
but you will have questions here and there
<IgorPec>
and you expect someone will address them
geonicz has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
<IgorPec>
also that someone will fix problems you find, right?
<IgorPec>
the more hardware we "support" the expensier it gets
<IgorPec>
and we receive nothing from you, while I (we) can't spent whole day fixing problems you find and problems you have
<TRS-80>
I personally have been promoting the idea of sticking to "Armbian Supported" list since a long time now, and as you say, maybe this really starts to mean something to people in future (i.e., when buying)
<TRS-80>
IgorPec: mind that "you" ;)
<TRS-80>
he means "users" btw :)
<stipa>
IgorPec: consumer is on the top
<IgorPec>
yes, this "you" is really probleamtic
<TRS-80>
stipa: that's where you're wrong, kiddo.jpg :D
<IgorPec>
stipa: wherever is that consumer, costs is ours
<IgorPec>
stipa: right. with telling you to fuck off, i save a lot of money ;)
<IgorPec>
open source is not amazaon
<stipa>
IgorPec: open source, my ass , whatever, if the money is involved it's busniess
<IgorPec>
sure. there is no support. case closed
<stipa>
IgorPec: you see, Mayday is the thing at 1:20
Redentor has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<stipa>
noob can get things running but if there's no driver that's no noobs territory anymore
<stipa>
or even worse, there is a driver but it's crashing
<stipa>
no "MAyday" support can help in that
<IgorPec>
there are beautifil linux groups on facebook
<TRS-80>
lol
<TRS-80>
the irony :D
<TRS-80>
I think we have perception issue, most people probably think of us as a distro, even I myself did for the longest time (maybe this should be forum post instead)
<IgorPec>
until users will think they need "talk to armbian" for support, its a mistake
<IgorPec>
support is commnunity
<IgorPec>
best effort
threenp has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
samythemany has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
samythemany has joined #armbian
threenp has joined #armbian
geonicz has joined #armbian
<stipa>
IgorPec: the only solution i see if you want everything to stay as it is is community growth
<stipa>
it's all risky
<stipa>
of course many will just take the image and not donate
<stipa>
it's the sam rn
<stipa>
same*
<stipa>
i guess with the better support of hardware people would come
<stipa>
and learn on the way
<stipa>
from noob to dev
<IgorPec>
stipa: donation never reached 0.5% of the costs.
<stipa>
well, yeah, that changes things
<IgorPec>
armbian is not some kids making images based on someone else work
<TRS-80>
I think our biggest challenge is perhaps getting that word out there
<TRS-80>
I realize it, but I do not think the average muppet does
<TRS-80>
this is a failure in marketing on our part, IMHO
<TRS-80>
some (enlightened) people do realize it, but not the majority I think
<IgorPec>
well, marketing to sell this different or not do this at all
<IgorPec>
expecting from amateur user to pay for essential developmenta and support is IMO illusion.
<stipa>
maybe the financial data should be public
<stipa>
for every board
<stipa>
with problems
<TRS-80>
I am not even talking about expecting pay, I am just saying they do not understand the difference between us and many other distros in their mind; let me fetch a quote
<TRS-80>
> It never stuck out to me in the long list of supported distributions on Rockpro64.
<TRS-80>
I think I made a good reply, but maybe I am bias. :)
<IgorPec>
stipa: and i will hire few people to prepare you that ? :)
<stipa>
IgorPec: like donate to make a driver if you don't have the money you can become a dev and code it
<TRS-80>
I don't think the issue is transparency of funds, rather we are "just another distro on a long list" in eyes of average muppet
<IgorPec>
stipa: yes, we have some sort of ideas. but you know what ...
<IgorPec>
next finding the person who will do the job proves to be equally difficult
<stipa>
IgorPec: yeah, it's a huge complex
<stipa>
something like management but with code involved
<TRS-80>
stipa: Do you post on forums (different name)? I don't think I saw you there?
<IgorPec>
we have troubles with far less complicated roles to fill.
<stipa>
yeah, different name, i'm not active much
<stipa>
IgorPec: it would be very hard to synchronise everything if financials would be involved in every step
geonicz has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
<IgorPec>
financials are here to prevent you into next step
<stipa>
right
<stipa>
so, the generic teypes of financial systems wouldn't work in this case
<IgorPec>
you lost me. don't understand what you mean
geonicz has joined #armbian
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> He wants bitcoin
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> :-D
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> J/K
<IgorPec>
the gansta money
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> Haha
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> Dogecoin
<stipa>
IgorPec: since the money flow is not constant there's no point to build a financial system from the books
* TRS-80
is starting to agree with D. DeVault that it's a resource wasting ponzi scheme
<stipa>
it has to be something else on a non constant basis
<IgorPec>
money flows, just not in right direction
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> IgorPec yes
<IgorPec>
if i create software for you and you pay nothing and then also complains about ... something is not right
* TRS-80
still stands by the assertion that if we are successful in marketing our "brand" (God I hate saying that) everything else will follow
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> If o ky it was even that goid
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> Good*
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> "I make lowest price point hardware worth nothing and expect you to make it work"
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> Probably 50% of the market is in this bucket
<IgorPec>
and actually i am fine with the fact you don't pay. pay if you like. just don't complain and expect wonders ... is tl/dr of support contract of such projects
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> Haha yeah
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> I don't like my day job, so if they pay me enough to quit I will be very happy. 😆
<stipa>
IgorPec: why would i complain if the software is working?
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> Stretch goals
<IgorPec>
stipa: ooooops. Who said its working?
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> Haha no warrant yexpressed or implied
<IgorPec>
working for you is something completly different
<IgorPec>
that's why we have this contract
<TRS-80>
So now we are sort of getting back to my earlier point, I mean when you say:
<TRS-80>
> Probably 50% of the market is in this bucket
<TRS-80>
PINE64 is very good example of this, but there are others.
<TRS-80>
So, what are we going to do about? What if someone steps up to maintain? Do we help them? Or?
<Werner>
TRS-80, no, it was somewhere lost in bug tracker. somebody else must have move it
<TRS-80>
one thing that PINE64 do well (for better or worse) is get people excited about new hardware
<Werner>
indeed
<stipa>
IgorPec: that should be on every boards page so that people can read it before they buy a board
<TRS-80>
now we all know this is hype and bullshit (especially this early on) but I don't think it's productive to shut down excitement/discussion in such a fashion
<IgorPec>
what do we have with boards?
<Werner>
people usually dont know about armbian before buying crap ^^
* TRS-80
did research and then bought an Armbian supported board (am I the only one?)
geonicz has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<Werner>
probably. I did not do that either...well that was a few years ago ^^
<stipa>
IgorPec: there'll be less complaints but also a smaller community
<IgorPec>
TRS-80: by creating bullship you loose some, gain others
<TRS-80>
but I want to talk about this issue with PINE64 (as just one example) as it puts me between rock (no pun intended lol) and a hard place when going out to these other forums trying to do outreach
<IgorPec>
stipa: community is small. those that register and ask support question are not community
<IgorPec>
TRS-80: they can't do much if you provide valuable information
<IgorPec>
like - look this is happening there, even it might be orhestrated from our side
jess has quit [Quit: I try to be an optimist / but my glass is always bone dry]
<TRS-80>
I just feel like I want to invite the guy to IRC / our forums for help, but hjow that looks like in light of other thread I linked above?
<TRS-80>
he actually linked that thread in a reply to be before, btw! :/
<IgorPec>
stipa: writing support things down is one thing, educating people is something else. this takes time and we are not in a position to fight that large battle
<TRS-80>
s/to be/to me/
<ArmbianHelper>
TRS-80 meant to say: he actually linked that thread in a reply to me before, btw! :/
<IgorPec>
you can tell him, that there is some interest on armbian forums
<IgorPec>
for official support we developed some stratega which we will follow
<IgorPec>
so they don't need to waste our time with questions "will you support this and that"
<TRS-80>
I think we need to do something about that Bring Up thread, it seems like it's totally shut down the idea, and I can tell you (from hanging in PINE64 IRC, Reddit, etc.) that there is a lot of excitement around that device we are perhapos missing out on
<IgorPec>
we can easily wait that its mainlined, then add support
<TRS-80>
I mean, isn't that the purpose of Board Bring up thread, to discuss these things?
<IgorPec>
well, they can discuss and they can even start doing something.
<TRS-80>
I think he is trying, no idea his skill level though
<TRS-80>
anyway OK I reach out to him
<TRS-80>
please be nice if he show up :)
<IgorPec>
well, he can start poking around build framework
<stipa>
IgorPec: understanding kernel dev stuff, drivers and low level is not something that can be learned over night, that's like one in a million
<stipa>
it's always like that, one guys write a driver and the whole world uses it
<IgorPec>
really?
<IgorPec>
so write it
<IgorPec>
you don't know? not a problem
<IgorPec>
find someone that will write it for you and send a patch to us
<IgorPec>
or to linus torwarlds
<stipa>
i think it would be cheaper to just buy an rpi
<IgorPec>
then buy a rpi
<TRS-80>
stipa: you make rms sad
<stipa>
i'm an user, i don't care
<IgorPec>
i also don't care if you are the one to abuse my time
<stipa>
yeah, but there are your competitors
<IgorPec>
and i have to work for your interest because i supposaly know how to work on that?
<IgorPec>
yes, exactly that's why i won't do this for you
<TRS-80>
Broadcom are not our "competitor" lol
<stipa>
yeah, but i have an alternative
<IgorPec>
use it
<stipa>
it won't be just me
<stipa>
but all the costumers
<IgorPec>
you are not my customer
<TRS-80>
although I know you are just being devil's advocate, so in that sense you are not wrong
<TRS-80>
and in fact sort of what I was hinting about above re: marketing, differentiation, etc.
<stipa>
i'm just being realistic
<stipa>
truth hurts
<stipa>
idk
<IgorPec>
yes, it hurts
<stipa>
i surely don't know where to ge the money
<IgorPec>
its not about money
<IgorPec>
its about relatinship, tretament, etc.
<IgorPec>
you (anyone) can fix this by contributing. not by (daring) to take more
<stipa>
i'm a greedy motherfucker, i can't help it
<IgorPec>
so you now understand my mirrored pow?
<IgorPec>
you are greedy, while you expect eternal gratitude and kindness
<IgorPec>
which free support can be translated into
<stipa>
:(
<IgorPec>
yeah, its sad
<stipa>
at least you know who users are
<IgorPec>
most of them are just alright
<stipa>
right, right
<IgorPec>
while we are all affraid of "rpi user", where this ratio is preasumable much worse
<TRS-80>
yeah, could be even worse XD
<TRS-80>
just remember that, count your blessings :D
<stipa>
worse, all i see about rpi problems are patches that no one even use
<stipa>
not much trouble is there on the forums, just bad scripting mistakes
<IgorPec>
if those users demand we fix them, we are talking about that "rpi users" issue. not having reality of community software
<stipa>
yeah, it's hidden
<stipa>
but i guess devs are happier there due to constant flow of $$$
<TRS-80>
remember you are not comparing apples, RPi is a closed device, they care nothing about mainline Linux
<TRS-80>
I realize average muppet even refers to all SBC as "RPi" but let's remember facts here
<stipa>
idk, trading mainline with just working crap is a tough choice
<IgorPec>
stipa: a lot of devs in this sector has top paid jobs
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> I need a firmware for my H3 RPi
<IgorPec>
users expectations and attitude is first bummer
<TRS-80>
stipa: It is not for me
<stipa>
i've worked, i'm solo now
<stipa>
enjoying freedom as much as i can
<IgorPec>
developers also like to enjoy freedom in opensource since they usually don't have it their jobs ;)