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<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Trs-80 trying to figure out what the smallest vehicle a 6V92 might fit in. 🤔
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<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Need to educate people on what a real diesel looks like 🤣
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<stipa> it's heavy
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Yeah, I'll be taking my dump truck to town I guess
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> At 6:00. Waking up half the continent
<stipa> just do it
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Lol
<stipa> remorse later
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Just because I'll be dead and have a neurological condition from having the piss shaken out of me and shifting through a billion gears...
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Um, deaf*
<stipa> sounds like a risk worth taking
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> I grew up hearing those holy terrors echoing through the mountains hauling gravel and coal
<stipa> give some pics
<stipa> of the truck model
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32>
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> GMC Brigadier lol
<stipa> that's a proper truck
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Haha
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<TRS-80> Is that the normal/proper operating RPM for that truck? Modern big diesels are much lower...
<stipa> i think that's a speedometer
<TRS-80> I mean I can hear it
<TRS-80> thing sounds over rev to me
<TRS-80> but maybe that's just how they were
<stipa> that's the power i guess
<stipa> look at that thing
<TRS-80> power band nowadays is like 1k rpm
<TRS-80> -1500
<stipa> todays stuff is shit
<TRS-80> you'll get no argument from me
<stipa> filters everywhere clogging the machine
<stipa> machines can't breath properly nowadays, at least the new ones
<TRS-80> yep
<TRS-80> Cheers
<stipa> Cheers
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<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Trs-80 it has a supercharger and a turbo
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> 2-stroke diesel
<stipa> he left
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Ah ok
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Changing gears for a facepalm of a board.
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Trying to drain 3-gorges dam through a drinking straw
<stipa> yeah, has no sense
<stipa> or it does, idk
<stipa> there's some additional chip under the blue heatsink
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> It's a PCIe controller
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> So you send the sad lane to it from the Pi and that talks to all the other stuff like a USB hub
<stipa> but yeah, that speed won't break a record, what is it like 5Gbs ?
<stipa> divided by 4
<stipa> 5 *
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Divided by a lot more than that lol
<stipa> maybe not
<stipa> i think that pcie lane is where usb3 goes on an SBC
<stipa> and the rest is as it is
<stipa> on an SBC
<stipa> at least the hack was like that to get pcie on rpi4
<stipa> is*
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> There are 4 more connectors behind the mPCIe you can see
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Then the x16 (lol) plug, and the NVMe
<stipa> let's wait for a review
<stipa> Jeff will do a speed test for us
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Right
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<Armbian-Discord> <l​anefu> tony nooo i cant get hooked on detroit diesel videos again
<Armbian-Discord> <l​anefu> yeah i've seen this design before
<Armbian-Discord> <l​anefu> used to call it an ISA backplane
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<tinyweasel> mmm... fancy DNS hostname
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<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> 🤔
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> I could run X on my Palm Touchpad 10 years ago, I guess iOS finally incorporated enough of Palms expired patents to succeed 😉
<TRS-80> and yet the muppets keep snapping them up like no tomorrow
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Palm ran a Linux kernel and you could recompile it yourself
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> The world that could have been. 🤔😁. I had a custom kernel on my Palm Pre phone, actually.
<TRS-80> I was away from my natural tech interests for many years (decades even) but I keep hearing these sort of stories from fellow old timers about Palm and N900 etc.; a lot of these people hanging around PinePhone scene nowadays.
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> I think both Android and iOS have finally integrated all the UI elements they want from the 2009 palm. (Cards based task switching, icon dots to show notifications, I could go on for a while)
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Still isn't as polished or intuitive, the gesture based navigation on the palm was almost flawless
<TRS-80> I have long been reading the paraises of Palm devices, not only recently in PinePhone scene but many other places like ThinkPads Forums, PIM communities, XDA, and elsewhere since years.
<TRS-80> I know Igor (maybe others?) are not biggest fans of PINE64, but there is a lot of excitement over there, mainly around PinePhone which might finally actually succeed in making a viable GNU/Linux phone. Once that gets going, a world of possibilities is opened IMO, which is why I am following that scene with such keen interest.
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> It is in the pile of things that should have made it, but so it goes. There is still an open source project, but of course this is harder because of hardware support effort and loss of momentum.
<TRS-80> As just one example, are you aware they are coming out with a keyboard for the PinePhone? Who is making physical keyboards any more for phones?!
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Yes, and it's the only reason I might get one, to use it as an HPC
<TRS-80> Your regret is palpable, even through the terminal and distance. :)
<TRS-80> HPC? something Personal Computer?
<TRS-80> Handy?
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> My Jornada 720 and NEC mobilePro 900C are just too old to be meaningfully useful
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Handheld
<TRS-80> aha
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Another type of device I mourned the death of 😆
<TRS-80> once they get Bluetooth HFP working, you will be able to use it as a phone, too. :)
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Haha
<TRS-80> but the keyboard, as designed, sort of prevents that which is sort of dumb but whatever
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> I want a small smart phone.
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Small
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Not 5.5" and up BS
<TRS-80> The problem with "phones" is that everyone is going to VoLTE. You can't even get a "dumb" phone any more, that is not running some stripped down version of Android. Hence my decision that PP is curently the way forward in that dept.
<TRS-80> it just so happens that it can also be a HPC
<TRS-80> of vice versa, if you will
<TRS-80> or
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Haha right.
<nekomancer[m]> TRS-80: first world problem.
<nekomancer[m]> no VoLTE at all in Latvia, Europe
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Let's see, last time I used the actual voice part of my phone...
<TRS-80> nekomancer[m]: Maybe so, but this is what's available here. You guys can still get regular phones over there I suppose?
<TRS-80> relevant issue (on Mobian anyway) for HFP:
<TRS-80> @Tonymac32 I don't use it much either, but some times...
<nekomancer[m]> TRS-80: sure we can. and gsm phones works.
<TRS-80> nekomancer[m]: Well in general I do not think that much of modernity is actual progress, FWIW
<TRS-80> rather the opposite
<TRS-80> But I do enjoy my tech, and my privacy at the same time, so I try and do whatever I can which means contributing to F/LOSS as much as possible as I strongly believe that is the only way forward out of our current Orwellian nightmare. :)
<nekomancer[m]> forward in
<nekomancer[m]> deeper
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<keesj> Lo
<keesj> I have a fresh install for my Neo plus 2. it is/was running ubuntu focal.
<keesj> After startup I got some message what updates where availalbe but apt-get update ; apt-get upgrade or even apt-get dist-upgrade did not remove the login banner with that message
<keesj> only after I launched armbian-config the update "happened" is there an explanation for this? and seconly I would like to upgrade to something more modern (like 21.04) will this break armbian if I do so?
<TRS-80> there were some issues with apt mirrors which should sort themself out after some time if you try again later (assuming you are not in some failed / partial pckg update state, if so can be fixed with regular Debian tools)
<TRS-80> keesj: ^
<TRS-80> but most helpful advice I can probably give is to reverse your notion of "modern" as very often in Linux world (and especially SBC part of it) newer is not often better but rather the opposite
<TRS-80> and if you have to ask such questions, you are very likely better off sticking to Supported versions
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> My NanoPi K2 is finally stable.
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> After end of production of it and it's SoC
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> #LinuxLife
<Armbian-Discord> <Z​aza> As Dwight says:
<TRS-80> yeah, I started being excited about RK3399 like years ago, finally now they are usable
<Armbian-Discord> <Z​aza> Question, what makes a image stable?
<TRS-80> @Zaza hundreds of man-hours of high level wizard / low level kernel and hardware development
<TRS-80> But I am starting to realize that some level of (what we would call) "hype" I think is necessary for any given product to succeed.
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Zaza I consider it stable when features work as intended, and the codebase upstream has begun to "cool off" commit wise
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> For the Meson GX in particular upstream changes kernel to kernel kept breaking/fixing/introducing things
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> That was due to the epic amount of work needed to get it right with the hardware. The clocks, for example, and the HDMI. I had green fuzz on my screen until kernel 5.4 if memory serves
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> So stable at this point is RK3288, RK3399, S905(X)/variants (S805X for example)
<keesj> I don't really know why but this is like the 4th time I am kinda disapointed by the reaction of people on the armbian channel assuming I don't know enough. I feel full grown and been probably been creating debian packages before anybody else here. Been doing embedded stuff for year and also security, reviews/ hacking stuff. I do not understand why one can not answer me without saying "this is not
<keesj> for you"
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> The Allwinner parts I have to temper my opinion because the number of patches in our build system is unreal
<keesj> last time it was do no used "dd" is doe not know how to write block devices and before what I don't remember.
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> You are the victim of desensitization. We get 100000000 questions where people break things because we assumed they knew more than they did
<TRS-80> ^
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> It causes the unfortunate situation of offending those who do know
<TRS-80> but you are 1 in ???????? (rare)
<TRS-80> sorry mate
<keesj> I did indeed notice problem with the mirror and the integiry / signing of package but that indeed dissapeared
<TRS-80> after some time hanging around we start to recognize certain names
<TRS-80> there is even eventually friendly banter :)
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> For the login banner I'm afraid I can't speak to it. Does anyone online know if the U-boot package can trigger that banner, since we don't automatically update U-boot anymore
<keesj> TRS-80: I feel better already
<TRS-80> keesj: Cheers! :)
<Armbian-Discord> <Z​aza> Understood
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Before anyone despairs, the RK3288/RK3399/S905 were more or less the "first" honest attempts at mainline support for those processor families
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> So they took longer than newer ones should
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> For Allwinner, well again, they might introduce something with no shares IP because they have issues >.<
<IgorPec> good frida<y
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Some PowerVR crap
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Hi IgorPec
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<Armbian-Discord> <I​gorPec> keesj: where you had seen troubles with signing=
<Armbian-Discord> <I​gorPec> ?
<Armbian-Discord> <Z​aza> Hey igor
<Armbian-Discord> <I​gorPec> heya
<Armbian-Discord> <Z​aza> Got a question
<keesj> after initial installation and apt-get update. on the http// repository
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<Armbian-Discord> <Z​aza> Netbox is going to be used for what in armbian?
<TRS-80> IgorPec: o/
<Armbian-Discord> <I​gorPec> keesy: we did have some issues with repository this week. i had pushed update with a wrong switch. Should be ok by now. Another possible problem is - failed to sync clock
<Armbian-Discord> <Z​aza> Its automation I know, but more specific
<Armbian-Discord> <I​gorPec> netbox is a central database for our hw inventory
<Armbian-Discord> <I​gorPec> from build servers, network gear, mirrors to devices under tests
<Armbian-Discord> <I​gorPec> whole test center
<Armbian-Discord> <Z​aza> Ok
<Armbian-Discord> <Z​aza> From what I'm seeing, its very modular
<Armbian-Discord> <Z​aza> Pretty cool tool
<Armbian-Discord> <I​gorPec> currently we have 85 physical and 59 virtual machines which are hooked somewhere, have ips, power switch , etc
<Armbian-Discord> <I​gorPec> but the software is designed to handle much bigger setups
<Armbian-Discord> <Z​aza> Nice
<Armbian-Discord> <Z​aza> It's you the admin of the tool?
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<Armbian-Discord> <I​gorPec> yes
<nekomancer[m]> <Armbian-Discord> "<I​gorPec> currently we have..." <- "SkyNet: the beginning"
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<TRS-80> Who did you think was calling when Jon Connor answer the phone?!
<Armbian-Discord> <N​icoD> Armbian for the Raspberry Pi4 seems to be received very well. Overall a lot of positive comments and many who tried it. Very few negative comments, less than normal actually. A few people who asked why, after explaining they understood. 97% like rate on the video. (45vs2) I did hope for a bit more viewers, but you can't want it all.
* TRS-80 has a negative comment, not on your efforts only on RPi :) <3
<c0rnelius> Whats the differences between Armbian on a Pi4 vs anything else?
<c0rnelius> The foundation does most of the leg work for you.
<TRS-80> Broadcom have been famously hostile toeards F/LOSS since basically forever, and still are
<Armbian-Discord> <N​icoD> I'm also not always possitive about RPi. I hated that I had to try 4 PSU's before I had one that was at 5.3V and working well.
<TRS-80> also they are already well supported, unlike basically every other SBC out there
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<mrueg> speaking of PSU, anyone got a recommendations for a stable multi usb power supply with 60W+ total power?
<Armbian-Discord> <N​icoD> I do see it as an advantage to also have RPi images. There are many that have RPi and other boards. I also rather run Armbian on it than anything else. And I had best experience with it. Both RaspberryPiOS-ARM64 and Ubuntu-arm64 were unstable at 2Ghz. Armbian never crached.
<c0rnelius> Plus Mesa on bullseye now supports the pi4 out of the box, so if ur pulling from the foundation github to build the kernel and using the proper userland and udev rules there isn't much more to it, other than saying. It's Armbian now :)
<Armbian-Discord> <N​icoD> The GPU driver is a bit buggy at the moment tho. I tried a few games and there were a lot of missing textures.
<c0rnelius> Arm64 or Armhf?
<Armbian-Discord> <N​icoD> arm64
<c0rnelius> Arm64 userland is... garbage. If you want full support from the userland you need to make armhf images
<Armbian-Discord> <N​icoD> For chromium and firefox it worked well.
<TRS-80> c0rnelius: NicoD answered your question already, but generally the answer is "stability" somehow Armbian ends up more stable than others even though they are "all the same" from user point of view.
<c0rnelius> TRS-80: Bit touchy hey?
<TRS-80> My other ansers were more from our point of view why we do not support. The final one being typical RPi user coming asking dumb questions which we already get too much of.
<TRS-80> c0rnelius: Not sure where you get that from.
<TRS-80> RPi have been discussed in hundreds of posts for years already, maybe you are not aware of that.
<c0rnelius> And no he didn't answer it up until now and no Armbian isn't more stable because its Armbian. Thats a ridiculous self serving answer.
<c0rnelius> I'm aware
<c0rnelius> Not saying Armbian is bad or anything like that and that its not a good thing to support the Pi4. Just saying I don't suspect it will produce anything more magically than say anything else.
<TRS-80> This has been my experience in general, I do not know any specifics as I don't use RPi. And of course it's not "just because Armbian" as if some sort of magic but rather many little details and knowledge go into that which is not readily apparent from casual user.
<Armbian-Discord> <N​icoD> As I said yesterday to somebody linking the RPi post. "If you can't change your mind, why have one." Edward de Bono
<c0rnelius> I play with Pis:
<c0rnelius> been making my own imgs for a long time now.
<c0rnelius> But as for full support. You'll need Armhf.
<TRS-80> well you probably know more about details than me at this point, I was talking in generalities; also things advanced a lot over the years to present state
<TRS-80> some of earlier (non technical) points I raised however have not changed
<c0rnelius> Yeah broadcom still sucks :)
<c0rnelius> and I would avoid uboot on a pi unless you have a good reason to use it.
<TRS-80> the fact that they ride the current wave of OpenSource popularity, whilst in actuality being in fact hostile to it, burns in me with the force of a thousand suns
<TRS-80> remember they had to be sued to release sources for wrt54 series, this is where all aftermarket routers got their start
<c0rnelius> I think all the diff companies suck in their own ways. But thats just me, I guess. I try not to let it get to me.
<TRS-80> which they built atop GPL2 Linux kernel and busybox
<c0rnelius> The foundation is in it for the money, just like broadcom and all the rest.
<TRS-80> one of earliest and most historic GPL enforcement cases which in fact set some precedents if I am not mistaken
<TRS-80> Linux Foundation does seem to be these days, but they are not the ones doing enforcement anyway, SF Conservancy are
<TRS-80> but behavior of companies like Broadcom goes above and beyond, absolutely sociopathic IMO
<TRS-80> they want to take but give nothing
<c0rnelius> Yeah we could debate this forever. Won't change anything :)
<TRS-80> I do not always make my replies for one individual (you in this case) but rather for lurkers and posterity
<c0rnelius> ok
<TRS-80> cheers :)
<c0rnelius> ;)
<TRS-80> now it's Friday we can have a beer :)
<c0rnelius> Already there
<TRS-80> ahaa
<TRS-80> little early here yet
<TRS-80> @NicoD I just want to re-state that 100% of my ire is toward Broadcom, I appreciate all of your video making efforts and I often refer people to them
<c0rnelius> I've watched a few myself. They are entertaining.
<TRS-80> got me up to speed on a lot of things, esp where I knew nothing like on desktops
<TRS-80> they are a valuable resource
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> :-| not just Broadcom, the allegedly open source champions that use them
<TRS-80> huzzah! :)
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> SHAME ON THEM
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> lol
<TRS-80> Conservancy have not sued someone in some time, but they recently started getting into Vizio ass btw:
* TRS-80 gets his pitchfork out
<TRS-80> c0rnelius: I am not sure what your opinion is about GPL, etc. but you are a smart guy and I invite you to ponder where we would be without it. No Linux, no nothing...
* [TheBug] grabs his torch
<TRS-80> huzzah! :)
<c0rnelius> Been using Linux "also BSD" for over 20 years exclusively. I don't believe there is much to ponder for me? I've already put my stake in that ground a long time ago.
<c0rnelius> Doesn't change how the world works though. Not one a "how can I make more money level?"
<c0rnelius> one/on*
<c0rnelius> Personally I find people in the open source community to be kind of dicks sometimes and oddly keep there knowledge closer to them selves then one would think when dealing in with GPL and open source in general.
<TRS-80> Yeah everybody has to eat. I don't work in the field (even though I have interest), I worry more about broader societal concerns, especially as devices of all kinds becoming practically required in modern life.
<c0rnelius> I guess they have to eat? Maybe just selfish?
<TRS-80> c0rnelius: Well they are already publishing code, docs usually, etc. I guess the mentality is that if those things are available they shouldn't have to tutor people? But maybe I am missing your point.
<TRS-80> There is a strong emphasis on self reliance and self study in the culture. But again not sure if this is what you refer to or not.
<c0rnelius> It's not about to tutoring people. I expect people to try... But when someone asks I don't act like a dick about it. I explain and try to help which I always thought was the whole point?
<TRS-80> My: eat comment was re: make money level not your "dicks" comment to be clear
<TRS-80> c0rnelius: I do as well. But I don't judge others who may have less time and more stress.
<c0rnelius> Linux users are... rough around the edges I find and suffer from ideologies which in most cases aren't real. Its like politics.
<c0rnelius> BSD, Windows and Mac users are the same.
<TRS-80> It is quite obnoxious IMO when people show up asking questions that reveal they clearly did not spend 5 minutes reading docs or whatever. In fact this is sociopathic behavior, they value their own time but not yours. And so it is a defense mechanism to put such people on notice.
<c0rnelius> Yes. I agree more people should read.
<TRS-80> now some people are more or less nice about this, but the basic point remanis
<c0rnelius> Everything I know is by reading and studying other peoples work.
<c0rnelius> I have no education in this field. proper.
<TRS-80> such is the path to true wizardry, I think many of us are in this boat
<TRS-80> again I submit to you this is a strong cultural value in F/LOSS
<TRS-80> and some people need to be taught it
<TRS-80> some times harshly, which is usually from a lack of patience
<TRS-80> of reaching end of rope rathere
<c0rnelius> When that happens I stop responding :)
<c0rnelius> or just point and say read this and let me know if you have any questions?.
<TRS-80> which is why I try and hang around forums and IRC, as a sort of mediating force, I try and answer the people in a nicer way before Igor get a hold of them for example :D
<c0rnelius> Well Igor is a interesting character and is one of the "wizards" you speak of. I review his work from time to time when I can't resolve something myself or want a better understanding of it.
<c0rnelius> To me Armbian is a resource.
<TRS-80> Yes and to be such high level wizard is to be ... different .. in many ways, I think dealing with normies is a byproduct of this, hence also my acceptance of it
<TRS-80> I mean rms eat his own toe cheese for crying out loud
<TRS-80> So I try to support, run interference on forums, etc. so Igor and those guys can do their thing
<TRS-80> I am only a low to medium (at best!) wizard in my own right
<c0rnelius> In all truthfulness I don't run Armbian though. Just like I don't run foundation imgs. When I hit a snag somewhere I would rather it be on me and fix it myself.
<TRS-80> why don't you just build custom using tools?
<c0rnelius> I do
<TRS-80> I mean that is in fact the point of Amrbian
<TRS-80> OK
<TRS-80> I guess I finally realized (although it took long time) that Armbian is actually a build tool. Although many consider it a distro, because we publish images.
<c0rnelius> All my arm boxes are custom.
<c0rnelius> Yeah Armbian is a tool.
<TRS-80> So I guess in that light I consider you are still "running Armbian" although not a pre made image (which I now think of as just "a product of the tool")
<TRS-80> but this is something I think we need to communicate better anyway since a long time to broader public
<c0rnelius> No I don't use armbians tool box.
<c0rnelius> Just some of the knowledge there within.
<TRS-80> so you don't use armbian-build directly, you just study it
<c0rnelius> yes, sir
<TRS-80> OK, so at this point I would say that the whole point of publishing armbian-build is to make some unified framework that makes it easy to build upon
<TRS-80> it would be easy for someone like Igor to keep all that knowledge to himself, but he doesn't do that, he publish a tool to share what he knows in a big way with everyone
<TRS-80> it is much easier to do what you are doing privately
<c0rnelius> Well and people all over make a contribution.
<TRS-80> yes but Igor start the whole thing, he did not have to do that. But you are right though. Together we all achieve more.
<TRS-80> many hands make light work, etc...
<c0rnelius> I believe I found a blog of his in the early days of Armbian where he said something along the lines of this has become bigger than I thought it was.
<c0rnelius> I didn't bookmark and I could be wrong. But I'm pretty sure a google search would find it.
<TRS-80> yes I gave seen it happen before many times in F/LOSS, also why I am so sympathetic
<TRS-80> imagine for a moment you publish some little project and it blows up
<c0rnelius> Linux
<TRS-80> now you are leading some big project very publicly, you never ask for this
<TRS-80> ya
<TRS-80> I am sure you read the email Linus initially sent to GNU mailing list?
<c0rnelius> Yeah
<TRS-80> > it's not big fancy project like GNU
<TRS-80> imagine that
<TRS-80> all these people are just people, even Igor, even Linux, and rms himself too
<TRS-80> and us
<TRS-80> you and me
<c0rnelius> Well look at Core/LibreELEC they also do great work and some of them actually contrib to Armbian.
<c0rnelius> So I feel like its all very connected.
<TRS-80> there are a lot of people contributing a lot of things all across the spectrum
<TRS-80> absolutely it is
<TRS-80> someone in #pinephone asked innocent enough question the other day: who to donate to
<c0rnelius> not pine! :)
<TRS-80> we discuss it a little in IRC, I start writing forum post but I gave up because it mushroom out of hand so quickly when I start listing out all the pieces involved
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* TRS-80 feels like the lone PINE64 advocate in Armbian :(
<c0rnelius> Like politics people choose their heroes. I just go on with my life and tend to ignore most things.
<TRS-80> you are free to do as you choose of course; for my part I feel very thankful we have some options to regain control of our own computing, and I do whatever I can to try and support that
<TRS-80> I also don't think you are as cynical as you let on some times :)
<c0rnelius> I do what I can aswell. I just don't advertise.
<TRS-80> or my favorite quote: "a cynic is just a disappointed idealist" ;)
<TRS-80> I am a cynic in this sense
<TRS-80> some times
<TRS-80> most times in fact
<c0rnelius> I'm more just disappointed.
<TRS-80> I waste my time on you because I see through your BS :)
<TRS-80> I know
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<c0rnelius> What BS is that?
<c0rnelius> You don't know me from Adam.
<TRS-80> OK maybe BS is not the right word, it is sincere. Your disappointment let's say.
<TRS-80> I was only half joking with you anyway
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<c0rnelius> I can side on that front.
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> TRS-80 I had to deal with RockPro64 V1 and Rock64 (all)
<yann-kaelig82> Hello
<TRS-80> yann-kaelig82: o/
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> So I usually wait until the devices are around for extended periods before biting
<TRS-80> @Tonymac32 I think I can manage ROCKPro64 and PBP in current state (with help)
<TRS-80> but that was not really what I refer to
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> The pine phone Pro should be hard to mess up, and with the keyboard I'm interested
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> The price hurts a little, no lie
<TRS-80> dude you should have signed up for a dev unit
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* TRS-80 just signed up for DevZone last night, is not actually a dev
<TRS-80> but you are
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Until that keyboard existed I had 0 interest
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> A drowning one at the moment :-D
<TRS-80> I assume you mean "existed" as in production? Because they been talking about it for some time.
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Now that Meson64 (older gen) seems to just work as long as no one hurriedly merges breaking patches ahem ;), my workload is lessening for my "supported" parts
<TRS-80> c0rnelius: Also I should have put "waste" in quotes. As in it's not really at all. ;)
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> I do want to get Armbian onto the Tinker Edge R, pico-ITX and pluggable wifi/LTE
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> RK3399 Pro with NPU
<TRS-80> > NPU meme
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Yeah I'm trying to think of a tual uses for such a thing
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Actual*
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Camera stuff is so last century Terminator
<yann-kaelig82> I have an Allwinner  Cubietruck and I'm interested to know if xorg-server has been updated on armbian to the last version which fix an important issue. I want to be honest and I'm trying Archlinuxarm right now, with the last xorg-server release but something is wrong and my HDMI output only a black screen while xorg-server, xfce processes are
<TRS-80> I don't get where all this shit comes from, everyone have some version of it
<yann-kaelig82> runnign as expected and there is no issue from the Xorg log.
<TRS-80> yann-kaelig82: I think there is a thread about it. But currently we are seeking Maintainer for that board.
* TRS-80 owns one as well but only yses it for server tho
<yann-kaelig82> So, maybe I could get more chance with armbian because I'm tired all the day to trying to fix this weird issue
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> It's possible, give it a shot
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> I don't have one unfortunately
* stipa Armbian on rpi, right, let's see that
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> :-[
<yann-kaelig82> TRS-80 maybe you are talking about thus thread ?
<TRS-80> yann-kaelig82: I was talking about some forum thread but let me look
<TRS-80> also
<TRS-80> yann-kaelig82: There is a good community here, and you will get help, but honestly the few devs are spread quite thin and have been for some time, hence
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> I'm more interested in watching paint dry outside in March during a rainstorm than I am the RPi.
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> ^_^
<yann-kaelig82> TRS-80, Yea I see that there is a lot of more activity here than on archlinuxarm :) That really pleasant
<TRS-80> yann-kaelig82: It looks like that is the GitHub issue related to the forum thread I was thinking about:
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Ahhh, you'll summon our resident arch troll. ;-)
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> I think he's sleeping
<TRS-80> yann-kaelig82: I do not deserve any of the credit but Armbian is years ahead of most other projects on SBC, even mainline/upstream Debian
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> (I used arch on my XU4 for a long time, there is nothing wrong with it, it's just a different approach)
<yann-kaelig82> TRS-80 Yes look like this is the thread related to the issue, but the patch hass been applied since on master branch and I'm running on the last version of Xorg-server with this patch. I hope that there is no other issue, but I'm not sure about that, it could be a wrong configuration on my side too
<TRS-80> yann-kaelig82: Please do give feedback on forum thread, unless adding to the PR ;)
<TRS-80> if you get it going, or not...
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Time to snag a freshie. Almost done at work
* TRS-80 just finished breakfast not too long ago, before that coffee "for 6 hours" as the Missus puts it
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Coffee is eternal
<TRS-80> only in AM for me, but the stuff I drink is so strong it makes you need toilet within 15 minutes
<yann-kaelig82> Armbian use the Debian Ubuntu repositories for packages software or it's own ?
<Werner> Both. Kernel packages and BSP comes from ARmbian, everything else is userspace
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<yann-kaelig82> well, I have nothing to lose so I'm download the last armbian unstable image for my cubietruck
<yann-kaelig82> downloading
<TRS-80> that's the spirit
<stipa> N​icoD check out 'tmux'
<yann-kaelig82> TRS-80, At least this channel is alive and maybe I will find some other people running on cubietruck and cubieboard2 to share knowledge and issues ^^
<yann-kaelig82> Also there is a nice documentation , that a good thing
<TRS-80> Cubietruck was first board to ever run Armbian, and the beginning of the project, therefore hold a special place at least in my heart but maybe I am the only sentimental one :)
<TRS-80> I don't think it was even known as Armbian back then
<yann-kaelig82> TRS-80 The Allwinner Cubieboard2 and Cubietruck was and still are my first and favorite ARM board because of the SATA port
<TRS-80> you are in good company, me and Igor too :) but that was long time ago, I don't think even Igor running his any more, only me now
<TRS-80> although for NAS use case I am using ROCKPro64 which is RK3399 based but have a standard PCIe where I put standars SATA adapter
<TRS-80> benefit here is 64-but, opening the door for things like ZFS ;)
<TRS-80> bit
<yann-kaelig82> TRS-80 Good :) opensource lima driver was a good thing for these card and now I would like to test duckstation ( PSX emulator ) on my cubietruck :)
<TRS-80> ohy man you are brave, let us know how it goes
<TRS-80> I would not consider Cubietruck of all things for desktop / game usage but what do I know
<TRS-80> mine is only running XMPP server and similar lightweight loads at this point
<stipa> T​onymac32 rpi works fine with lubuntu DE and Armbian
<TRS-80> disgust.jpg
<yann-kaelig82> I see, well that the last thing I will do, a server machine if duckstation is not working as I hope, I will see
<stipa> excitement.png
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<yann-kaelig82> ok, thank you very much, pretty late here so I will install armbian tomorrow and I will come back after that.
<yann-kaelig82> CU later
<stipa> cu
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<TRS-80> lol @ stipa
<stipa> :)
<stipa> TRS-80: that was a smurk
<stipa> smirk *
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<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> What board is that for? I don't speak foggy boards or whatever. >.<
<nekomancer[m]> helios4
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> I'm afraid I don't have that one. I picked up the RK3399 one
<TRS-80> I liked Kobol guys, and I think they were trying to make good stuff, etc. but they did not make it. :( Say what you want about PINE64 but they are still in business. So I think you need the right combination of hype, engeneering acumen, etc...
<TRS-80> I would go one further and suggest that "the right combination" is likely even outside what most of us may be comfortable with, in particular the real engineers amongst us, so I try and pull in that direction maybe a little :)
* nekomancer[m] lost hope to any small gang of enthusiasts, 3-5-7 humans, can to build realy good contemporal gadget like NAS, smartphone, router, or "normal" vehicle.
* nekomancer[m] world turns too complex.
* nekomancer[m] bar raised too high.
* nekomancer[m] impossible to enter to market without a years of tries.
<stipa> yeah, globalisation
<stipa> if some product sux or is in the second place no one wants it and everyone in the world is looking at the same list
<stipa> products are also available everywhere
<stipa> so, in a way it's million times worse than capitalism
<stipa> t's impossible to compete
<TRS-80> > Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
<stipa> that's just a story
<stipa> if it weren't that story of hope no one would ever waste money on a busniess
<stipa> especially now
<stipa> business by itself is a market
<TRS-80> Do you remember the time when you had to be a kernel hacker to get your ARM SBC to do anything? That is no longer that case, due to the work of few people who are to busy presently to be compaining in IRC about everything and nothing at the same time.
<TRS-80> even mortals like me can self host our own services thanks to them
<TRS-80> on small low power devices
<stipa> i guess we're not on the same note
<stipa> modems and stuff are running linux for a long tome on arm
<stipa> ar least 15 years
<stipa> it's just it was closed source
<nekomancer[m]> stipa: but they still can't be created as completely free. all of them based on tons NDA info.
<nekomancer[m]> you just can't create cell modem or wifi adapter without sign a tons of NDA and other contracts.
<stipa> yeah, NDA is mostly what doesn't work
<stipa> NDA chips
<stipa> but their blob drivers also suck
<stipa> i'm not sure why the sell all those bogus chips
<nekomancer[m]> all baseband of our communications — tons of hidden inside blobs code (possible with linix and other free license sw), and, in case it work with linux — stub free code to pull ropes binded to closed soft.
<nekomancer[m]> stipa: 1. because they can
<nekomancer[m]> 3. because they have no reason to do it open way
<nekomancer[m]> 2. because they have no way to do it open way
<nekomancer[m]> and, you know, linux reject kernel GPL3 migration.
<nekomancer[m]> he knows: _they_ will just drop out (or kinda fork) linux if they can't use it in "TiVo" style
<nekomancer[m]> s/linux/Linus/
<ArmbianHelper> nekomancer[m] meant to say: he knows: _they_ will just drop out (or kinda fork) Linus if they can't use it in "TiVo" style
<stipa> yeah, i'm aware that majority of blobs is stolen open source code
<stipa> it's logical if it's arm that it runs linux...
<stipa> ant arm is everywhere
<stipa> and*
<stipa> and no one is fixing that shit
<TRS-80> yes radios are a landmine of patents, GPU also and traditional x86 arch, and yet there are several projects as we speak working on alternatives for the future
<TRS-80> which was even announced on our forums
<stipa> yeah, it's expensive
<stipa> fpgas are also closed hardware
<stipa> on wich open hardware is designed
<stipa> :)
<TRS-80> an Attempt to Open Source WiFi and BLE module
<TRS-80> yes we know, all hope is lost
<stipa> ?
<TRS-80> even though I post several counter examples, actual active projects, many of them receiving large institutional funding
<stipa> yeah, i guess clones could never go as cheap as commercial wifi chips
<TRS-80> not yet
<TRS-80> but Blackberry was also relevant at one point in time, and Nokia too
<TRS-80> things change
<stipa> yeah, bad decisions
<stipa> TRS-80: that pine wifi thing, can it be plugged into usb and used as a usb wifi adapter?
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<TRS-80> stipa: I only know if its existence, and pretty sure it's still in develompent, but maybe have a look there
<TRS-80> of
<stipa> there's hope
<TRS-80> looks like 8 pin interface like NRF radios, so you would brobably need to make simple adapter board but I am sure someone probably will in time
<TRS-80> stipa: See, that's the spirit! If it truly were hopeless, their propaganda would not be necessary. ;)
<stipa> it could work
<TRS-80> but that thing is in development, mind you
<TRS-80> gonna be a while
<TRS-80> therefore I have not been following closely
<TRS-80> too busy with more immediate concerns
* TRS-80 really should be getting his PinePhone working again
<stipa> yeah man
<stipa> those lob wifi chips are pita
<stipa> blob*
<c0rnelius> Yeah because it takes effort
<stipa> lifelong passion
<TRS-80> > radios in general are a minefield of patents
<TRS-80> and NDAs
<TRS-80> etc.
<TRS-80> stipa: but if you want a F/LOSS wifi, these exist today
<TRS-80> look into atheros
<TRS-80> all of those are F/LOSS drivers
<stipa> it's pricey
<stipa> seems like it hasn't been updated for some time
<TRS-80> Well this is ThinkPenguin business (specializing in F/LOSS devices only). You can support them or not.
<stipa> maybe not
<TRS-80> freedom isn't free
<TRS-80> :)
<stipa> i can buy 5 bloobed wifi chips for the price of one there
<TRS-80> so go do that then
<stipa> i have few chips
<stipa> they kinda work
<TRS-80> they are small volume seller I guess, need to charge more
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<nekomancer[m]> I buy helios4 and helios64, I own it. But was they perfect? No, they don't. Just "acceptable". And where are "helios" creators? they burned out. theatre is closed, go home.
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<TRS-80> I know man it's sad, I feel for you, and them.
<TRS-80> But my point was (and always has been) I seen a lot of projects come and go over many years and I don't want to see that happen to Armbian because it is too important IMO.
<TRS-80> We need OS for SBC which are not RPi.
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<nekomancer[m]> <TRS-80> "all of those are F/LOSS drivers" <- floss drivers does matter. but what about blobs? dn't they required?
<nekomancer[m]> <TRS-80> "freedom isn't free" <- payed with pain
<TRS-80> nekomancer[m]: You know I am not sure (re: firmware), maybe this is what PINE64 is trying to do with PineNut.
<TRS-80> OTOH, There is fully F/LOSS firmware in Debian.
<TRS-80> hang on let me find it
<c0rnelius> yeah its all the non-free firmware
<c0rnelius> People are funny. Even ur x86_64 box is running a proprietary BIOS all vendor specific and what have you.
<nekomancer[m]> I dig into blobs-free wifi about a month ago. I found 2 looks alike chip series, and bunch of usb wifi adapters on this chips. released about 2009-2012.
<nekomancer[m]> that's all.
<TRS-80> these are them
<TRS-80> c0rnelius: Also, shut up with your facts! :p
<c0rnelius> Personally I like Ralink. Works out of the box on Linux.
<TRS-80> c0rnelius: Oh wait except mine is not. ;)
<TRS-80> KGPE-D16 running Libreboot
<c0rnelius> Not sure what that is.
<TRS-80> but I thought you were saying something about HDDs which would have been true
<c0rnelius> All my x86 stuff is what people put in the garbage.
<TRS-80> and then I have some ThinkPads also running Libreboot
<TRS-80> no IME shit here :)
<c0rnelius> ah okay Asus
* nekomancer[m] got x260 from ebay today. but seller forgot to make a ssd upgrade I pay for. evil.
<TRS-80> nekomancer[m]: If seller does not work with you, dispute through eBay who are very buyer friendly
<c0rnelius> I was looking at those thinkpads because I read bsd runs well on most of them.
<c0rnelius> And Ebay has them all over the place for cheap.
<TRS-80> c0rnelius: Many ThinkPads (esp older ones) were available from factory with GNU/Linux as an option (so BSD should work, too).
<TRS-80> When were you looking? They are not cheap any more! lol
<TRS-80> used to be
<c0rnelius> Before VIRUS
<TRS-80> yepo
<c0rnelius> Someone gave me a throw away Acer anyway, so I stopped looking, which was around the time of "Look over there! Whats that virus killing everyone in China?" Nevermind, lets just have Thanksgiving dinner and not care.
<nekomancer[m]> TRS-80: I send a letter. Seller have a good big rate. I hope he will do right things. But time and costs (send back item itself or wrong hdd) will be lost :(
<c0rnelius> Most sellers will make it up to you some how. They don't want bad ratings.
<c0rnelius> Maybe he could send you one and you just put it in ur self?
<c0rnelius> Or get a discount
<TRS-80> nekomancer[m]: just mind that they don't string you along until your deadline expires ;)
<TRS-80> discount easiest and fastest, that is what I would want, so you can buy yourself
<nekomancer[m]> c0rnelius: sweet hopes :)
<nekomancer[m]> maybe. will see.
<TRS-80> they made mistake and so should accomodate, if not just file dispute with eBay
<c0rnelius> nekomancer[m]: Just make a real stink about it. :)
<TRS-80> I used to be nice and got ripped off, now I do not hesitate to file dispute if I smell fish!
<nekomancer[m]> TRS-80: my local prices higher, and availability seems bad for such tricks.
<TRS-80> well, you get the idea; negotiate whatever is best for you
<TRS-80> and good luck
<nekomancer[m]> yes, I not mind to ask for discount
<c0rnelius> One bad part about Armbian doing Pi stuff is ur gonna have Pi kids asking you all kinds questions.
<TRS-80> yes this is one of main 2-3 reasons from our side not to support, since long time now
<c0rnelius> First one... Why doesn't the cam work? Answer: Cams aren't supported on Arm64. Why not? Because the Foundation sucks?
<TRS-80> c0rnelius: yes please hang around forums and answer such questions, before Igor get to them :)
<TRS-80> this is my main contribution to project in fact lol
<c0rnelius> Funny part about that is, cams actually use to half way work on arm64 and for some reason they pulled it out?
<c0rnelius> Not sure what the logic was there. I guess they have some grand plan? Who knows.
<TRS-80> here illustrate another problem, when you have the blob in charge of everything, you are totally dependent on what they are willing to allow you to have
<c0rnelius> Its why Ubuntu uses an old version of the Userland on the Pi images they make.
<TRS-80> too much control which is the whole problem with blobs
<TRS-80> they are an unjust tool of control over the user, as rms himself would say
<TRS-80> on more open platform this is not a limitation
<TRS-80> actually why PINE64 change choice of camera module in PP Pro to one that is already well supported in Linux
<TRS-80> but there are many examples
<TRS-80> probably that one is reverse engineered anyway, I think it is Sony one and they are one of worst offenders too
<TRS-80> anyway I probably should go fix my phone already
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