ChanServ changed the topic of #kisslinux to: Unnofficial KISS Linux community channel | https://kisscommunity.org | post logs or else | song of the day: http://yewtu.be/7sMmulAuupc
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<midfavila-laptop> so
<midfavila-laptop> update on glazier
<midfavila-laptop> i can certainly appreciate its small size and the author's mentality, and some of the decisions make glazier feel very similar to rio - not necessarily a bad thing
<midfavila-laptop> however, for a laptop, it's a horrible choice of interface
<midfavila-laptop> also it seems to assume you have a five-button mouse..?
<phinxy> What is glazier and rio.
<phinxy> I love to read devsonacid, lots of things to agree with there
<midfavila-laptop> glazier's a window manager that was suggested to me earlier by sad_plan iirc
<midfavila-laptop> it's a floating window manager that's primarily mouse-oriented
<midfavila-laptop> rio is the window manager used on plan 9
<midfavila-laptop> it, too, is a mouse-oriented floating design
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<testuser[m]> Hi
<acheam> hi testuser[m]!
<acheam> how is your year going? new semester?
<acheam> oh shoot, song of the day
<testuser[m]> dilyn: just linking the pipewire config in /usr/share/alsa.conf.d/99-pipewire.default to /etc/asoundrc worked for me
<testuser[m]> acheam: good
<testuser[m]> And yea
ChanServ changed the topic of #kisslinux to: Unnofficial KISS Linux community channel | https://kisscommunity.org | post logs or else | song of the day: http://yewtu.be/SihvRE8Hm6g
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<dilyn> hm wtf bud
<dilyn> yeah that's it. /etc/asoundrc
<hyrc_> i dive into alsa for like two days and then forget everything
<hyrc_> at least i have loopback recording working
<hyrc_> schwarzenegger
<dilyn> unbased
<hyrc_> https://media.patriots.win/post/DTuyjl5i.jpeg Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Saeed Hussain Khalil el-Sisi receiving his
<testuser[m]> Bruh
<testuser[m]> dilyn: asound.conf is for putting in ur home
<testuser[m]> Idk why the difference
<testuser[m]> No it wws .asoundrc
<dilyn> what a ballsy thing to do lmfao
<testuser[m]> Idk i forgor 💀
<hyrc_> right
<dilyn> yeah asoundrc also goes in ~ which is what I previously had defining the default pcm/card
<hyrc_> you can do /etc/asound.conf too though i mean.. there's no reason to make it per-user
<dilyn> real question: do I still need that or is pipewire super genius...
<dilyn> there was a moment where inexplicably /etc/asound.conf would never work for me but ~/.asoundrc DID
<dilyn> alsa sparks joy :v
<hyrc_> it's gotten a bit better
<hyrc_> havent played with pipewire. i figure it's new so there has to be something bad about it
<dilyn> it's better than pulse!
<dilyn> and pretty comprehensive
<dilyn> and 8mb
<hyrc_> good to hear
<hyrc_> This study shows that after three months the vaccine effectiveness of Pfizer & Moderna against Omicron is actually negative. Pfizer customers are 76.5% more likely and Moderna customers are 39.3% more likely to be infected than unvaxxed people.
<dilyn> lmfao why are so many websites that link to this study climate change denial websites
<noocsharp> sir, this is a channel for a linux distribution
<dilyn> here, in the middle of this wendy's
<hyrc_> sorry thought i was in a diff channel there
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<testuser[m]> noocsharp: maybe the microchips in the vaccines run KISS so they keep talking about it here
<Acid-Bong> Question on GKiss.
<Acid-Bong> One of the differences in GKiss installation is that one should clone the community repo to build and use `glibc`. Does it mean that i still have to use kisslinux/repo with it or should i rather use gkisslinux/grepo for base system?
<testuser[m]> acid-bong: its just for building not using
<testuser[m]> cuz glibc needs some stuff for building thats in community repo
<testuser[m]> it needs GNU awk for some stuff
<testuser[m]> compile-time
<testuser[m]> and u have to use gkisslinux/grepo
<Acid-Bong> so, grepo+community+gcommunity it is, right?
<testuser[m]> no
<testuser[m]> grepo+community
<testuser[m]> gcommunity is not required
<testuser[m]> it doesnt have anything except pulseaudio and dbus
<Acid-Bong> maybe for dbus i'll use it, i'm a pipewire person
<testuser[m]> pipewire is patched in community to not use dbus
<testuser[m]> dbus is only needed for screen sharing and thats another mess since u need to package 20 extra things for it to work
<testuser[m]> u can use v4l2 as a virtual camera and record ur screen to that with wf-recorder and use that as device in ur browser
<Acid-Bong> what about display managers? i was tryna use runit on Kiss and looked for info in Void Linux docs. And there like half of services depend on dbus running
<testuser[m]> do u really need a display manager
<testuser[m]> u can just start from tty
<Acid-Bong> well yeah
<testuser[m]> u can do it but u will have to do some work, build everything with support for dbus and elogind and whatever
<testuser[m]> kiss default is busybox init which is a stripped down version of runit btw
<testuser[m]> but u can switch to the real runit
<Acid-Bong> i tried using runit instead of baseinit, system didn't load 🤷
<Acid-Bong> ok, i see xinit in the xorg repo, that's already great
<Acid-Bong> does it work for the first installation, within chroot?
<testuser[m]> wdym
<konimex> I mean, sure, since the "installation" is literally extracting the chroot into a directory/mountpoint
<Acid-Bong> i mean, the guide that testuser shared is on changing init, not installing it in the first place
<testuser[m]> installing is just kiss b runit
<Acid-Bong> or is the difference is that i can skip the part on killing the active init, since there's no such?
<Acid-Bong> ah, i understood now
<Acid-Bong> it showed me poweroff and reboot conflicts, and i didn't resolve them
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<hyrc_> it's nice you're avoiding dbus
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<bibliocar_> point about suckless having failed. I know it's bad to police language, but I do think they went about things the wrong way. It's really bad to be derisive to other people's work, especially when done for free(ish).
<bibliocar_> should emphasize learning opportunities created by easy to understand software, and other benefits, instead of leading with how other people are doing it wrong.
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<bibliocar_> I wonder how many of there "elite hackers" were just people wanting learn from simple software, and who wouldn't be able to make complex programs. What a terrible environment for people like that to begin getting involved.
<cem> I disagree with your stance
<bibliocar_> On what points?
<cem> Sure they are really rude to people creating free software
<cem> But some of those software are really harmful to the general environment of UNIX
<cem> People like Poettering are envisioned to make Linux Windows-like
<cem> Caring nothing about portability, compatibility, or hell, even security
<bibliocar_> I mean, you can choose not to use the software, the rest is politics... except that's not true and I know it. Hmm.
<cem> Not really
<cem> You can't compile lots of software without gcc or clang
<bibliocar_> My personal opinion is that systemd is vender lock-in in that people learn how to use it, instead of learning how the system works underneath.
<cem> lots of stuff depends on udev
<bibliocar_> But what about more grey areas like gnu?
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<cem> Well, I'm more okay with gnu than lots of people here, but I still don't like most of their decisions
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<cem> But I also get it, GNU was created as a competitor to a commercial system that was UNIX
<bibliocar_> I guess by the same token I started with, judging suckless, ignoring standards and breaking compatability is bad on their part as well.
<bibliocar_> Yeah, and gpl was on much less sure footing, so you have to make your software different.
<bibliocar_> It seems like there was a time period where everyone was focussed on performance and features, and nowadays we just want something that'l work reliably.
<cem> Yeah, I don't like that they are breaking lots of standards, but as I said, it was the correct move at that point of time
<cem> Now that free software is easily and widely available, compatibility and standard compliance is much more important
<bibliocar_> I'm not sure, though. I honestly don't like posix. I recognize it's by far the best we have, much better than stuff put out by redhat, but there needs to be a way for standards to compete in the way that software does.
<bibliocar_> If that makes sense. I get very nervous about instutions to which there are no competitors.
<cem> it has its flaws, but I think posix is pretty much alright
<cem> also the flaws are usually due to conflicting historic implementations, so it's not really their fault
<bibliocar_> Posix is about as good as it gets. And those who ignore it tend to do so sporatically, with surprise gotchas that are about as bad as you can get.
<bibliocar_> But i think portability can also come from being well documented and simple code that could be easily adopted anywhere.
<bibliocar_> It's funny, though, because people complain about ifdefs making complicated code, but what's the difference between that, and having different versions of the same software for different platforms? That's not a rhetorical question, by the way.
<bibliocar_> I'm a newb
<testuser[m]> Give an example where many ifdefs are required
<testuser[m]> It will have different solution
<bibliocar_> busybox >:
<testuser[m]> Depending on what its for
<cem> I don't think ifdefs are bad
<bibliocar_> I guess not, I just read someone complain about a "maze of ifdefs" once.
<testuser[m]> If ur just guarding a whole function with an ifdef then its fine
<cem> Sure, if it's a maze of ifdefs, the code is harder to debug
<testuser[m]> If u got 10 ifdefs in 1 function then not
<testuser[m]> Busybox ifdefs seem fine, mostly for constants or debugging
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<bibliocar_> Okay. Thank you.
<bibliocar_> sometimes i wonder if I shouldn't like, somehow just put out a fork of something that's really just all the ifdefs configured to my specific purposes, and hack on that code only, porting changes upstream.
<bibliocar_> scrolling is a pain.
<testuser[m]> Lol u will have a bad time merging upstream fixes
<bibliocar_> i have to go though, thanks.
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<midfavila-laptop> morning everyone
<testuser[m]> hi
<midfavila-laptop> re: ifdefs fwiw plan 9's source tree didn't (doesn't?) have a single one for decades across like a dozen different architectures
<testuser[m]> they used completely different sources then?
<midfavila-laptop> no
<midfavila-laptop> they just wrote portable code
<midfavila-laptop> :v
<testuser[m]> bruh
<midfavila-laptop> don't optimize for a specific architecture and you won't need to rewrite shit for other architectures
<midfavila-laptop> love me plan, love me nine. simple as.
<midfavila-laptop> " Conditional compilation, even with #ifdef, is used sparingly in Plan 9. The only architecture-dependent #ifdefs in the system are in low-level routines in the graphics library. Instead, we avoid such dependencies or, when necessary, isolate them in separate source files or libraries. Besides making code hard to read, #ifdefs make it impossible to know what source is compiled into the binary or whether source protected by them will c
<midfavila-laptop> ompile or work properly. They make it harder to maintain software."
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<op_4> midfavila-laptop: i eventually sorted out {tinyramfs+LVM+LUKS,eiwd,FDE,grub} and now kiss boots to a functional system :D
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<foamingatmouth> Hi has anyone had trouble building webkit2gtk? It manages to get all the way to 100% but fails saying that it can't find WebCore/CoordinatedGraphicsLayer.h
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<phoebos> oh dip links supports finger://
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<midfavila-laptop> grats op_4
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<Acid-Bong> does glibc repo have no GnuPG signatures? or should i still set up the verification?
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<testuser[m]> No
<testuser[m]> It uses the kiss repo as a submodule for most packages so u could probably set up verification for the submodule
<testuser[m]> But it's not required
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<bibliocar> So heres a question: If there's a static only linux distribution, what's the point of file formats like elf?
<bibliocar> I may be misunderstanding a lot.
<testuser[m]> Static bin is still ELF
<bibliocar> I'm wondering if there are fields and tables in there that are no longer used in that type of system.
<bibliocar> or do static binaries use them, too?
<bibliocar> I'll research this, and write about it later.
<noocsharp> there are sections that aren't used, but these are just excluded in static binaries
<bibliocar> Okay, I see it. I need to learn a bit more to know which is which though.
<phoebos> eh, time to clear my 4.67GB ccache
<phoebos> now i can breathe
<phoebos> i wonder if i'll notice a difference now
<testuser[m]> Soon
<phoebos> compiling the kernel took maybe 25% longer /shrug
<phoebos> and that was it making new cache as well
<phoebos> ok what the fuck i needed to do this ages ago
<phoebos> building with fresh cache took 3 minutes
<phoebos> instead of 18
<phoebos> what joy
<phoebos> only 115M of ccache
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<phinxy> 200GB of cache - just a kisslinux thing
<phoebos> phinxy: of ccache? owch
<phinxy> the .cache from compiling countless of firefox's with KISS_DEBUG=1
<phoebos> oh
<phoebos> why do you do that
<phinxy> Wanted to get LTO / PGO working
<cem> don't you limit your cache size at all?
<cem> 200G is a lot
<phoebos> why not test in the same tree rather than starting from scratch each time
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<phinxy> cem, I removed /root/.cache/kiss, is there something automated for that?
<phoebos> not sure what you want but there's kiss-cacheman
<phinxy> phoebos, I felt at the time I wouldn't be able to reproduce KISS's buildscript, its not trivial
<phoebos> you could always put a `sh > /dev/tty` at some point in the buildscript, and make sure to export all the required variables, and then test in there
<phinxy> What would the `sh > /dev/tty` accomplish?
<phinxy> launching a shell in the same state as the kiss buildscript is?
<phoebos> yes
<phoebos> so if you go in in the right place then you've got all the patches applied and can run ./mach build with your own options or whatever
<phoebos> like for firefox, i'd put it on line 105 and then i've got all the variables ready
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<acheam> thats a nifty idea
<acheam> much more convinient than $KISS_DEBUG imo
<acheam> I wonder if there is an easy way of duplicating the environment...
<acheam> "sh -c $(env | awk '{print "export " $0}') > /dev/tty" or something
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<sad_plan> hi
<acheam> hi
<sad_plan> how do you do? C:
<acheam> I'm okay
<acheam> finishing up my last college application!
<acheam> but the most labor-intensive one
<acheam> and my farthest shot
<sad_plan> what are you applying for? I mean, which study or whatever its called :p
<sad_plan> shoot for the stars
<acheam> and if I don't make it, I'll land in a bunch of wasted time and an application fee!
<acheam> I'm applying for a bunch of stuff.... classics in some places, computer science in others, engineering in others
<sad_plan> oh, that would certainbly be a massive bummer..
<sad_plan> cool
<acheam> well I'm expecting it for most schools, so isn't a huge bummer
<sad_plan> nice
<sad_plan> ive built mpv statically earlier today, albeit no sound. which is somewhat curious
<acheam> interesting
<sad_plan> yeh
<sad_plan> boyah, I fixed it
<sad_plan> appearantly, I forgot to set default soundcard.. I knew it was some bs solution
<acheam> nice
<sad_plan> yeah :D
<phinxy> sad_plan: did you encounter any hickups compiling a static mpv, was there anything to it?