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<midfavila-laptop>
so
<midfavila-laptop>
update on glazier
<midfavila-laptop>
i can certainly appreciate its small size and the author's mentality, and some of the decisions make glazier feel very similar to rio - not necessarily a bad thing
<midfavila-laptop>
however, for a laptop, it's a horrible choice of interface
<midfavila-laptop>
also it seems to assume you have a five-button mouse..?
<phinxy>
What is glazier and rio.
<phinxy>
I love to read devsonacid, lots of things to agree with there
<midfavila-laptop>
glazier's a window manager that was suggested to me earlier by sad_plan iirc
<midfavila-laptop>
it's a floating window manager that's primarily mouse-oriented
<midfavila-laptop>
rio is the window manager used on plan 9
<midfavila-laptop>
it, too, is a mouse-oriented floating design
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<testuser[m]>
Hi
<acheam>
hi testuser[m]!
<acheam>
how is your year going? new semester?
<acheam>
oh shoot, song of the day
<testuser[m]>
dilyn: just linking the pipewire config in /usr/share/alsa.conf.d/99-pipewire.default to /etc/asoundrc worked for me
<testuser[m]>
dilyn: asound.conf is for putting in ur home
<testuser[m]>
Idk why the difference
<testuser[m]>
No it wws .asoundrc
<dilyn>
what a ballsy thing to do lmfao
<testuser[m]>
Idk i forgor 💀
<hyrc_>
right
<dilyn>
yeah asoundrc also goes in ~ which is what I previously had defining the default pcm/card
<hyrc_>
you can do /etc/asound.conf too though i mean.. there's no reason to make it per-user
<dilyn>
real question: do I still need that or is pipewire super genius...
<dilyn>
there was a moment where inexplicably /etc/asound.conf would never work for me but ~/.asoundrc DID
<dilyn>
alsa sparks joy :v
<hyrc_>
it's gotten a bit better
<hyrc_>
havent played with pipewire. i figure it's new so there has to be something bad about it
<dilyn>
it's better than pulse!
<dilyn>
and pretty comprehensive
<dilyn>
and 8mb
<hyrc_>
good to hear
<hyrc_>
This study shows that after three months the vaccine effectiveness of Pfizer & Moderna against Omicron is actually negative. Pfizer customers are 76.5% more likely and Moderna customers are 39.3% more likely to be infected than unvaxxed people.
<dilyn>
lmfao why are so many websites that link to this study climate change denial websites
<noocsharp>
sir, this is a channel for a linux distribution
<dilyn>
here, in the middle of this wendy's
<hyrc_>
sorry thought i was in a diff channel there
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<testuser[m]>
noocsharp: maybe the microchips in the vaccines run KISS so they keep talking about it here
<Acid-Bong>
Question on GKiss.
<Acid-Bong>
One of the differences in GKiss installation is that one should clone the community repo to build and use `glibc`. Does it mean that i still have to use kisslinux/repo with it or should i rather use gkisslinux/grepo for base system?
<testuser[m]>
acid-bong: its just for building not using
<testuser[m]>
cuz glibc needs some stuff for building thats in community repo
<testuser[m]>
it needs GNU awk for some stuff
<testuser[m]>
compile-time
<testuser[m]>
and u have to use gkisslinux/grepo
<Acid-Bong>
so, grepo+community+gcommunity it is, right?
<testuser[m]>
no
<testuser[m]>
grepo+community
<testuser[m]>
gcommunity is not required
<testuser[m]>
it doesnt have anything except pulseaudio and dbus
<Acid-Bong>
maybe for dbus i'll use it, i'm a pipewire person
<testuser[m]>
pipewire is patched in community to not use dbus
<testuser[m]>
dbus is only needed for screen sharing and thats another mess since u need to package 20 extra things for it to work
<testuser[m]>
u can use v4l2 as a virtual camera and record ur screen to that with wf-recorder and use that as device in ur browser
<Acid-Bong>
what about display managers? i was tryna use runit on Kiss and looked for info in Void Linux docs. And there like half of services depend on dbus running
<testuser[m]>
do u really need a display manager
<testuser[m]>
u can just start from tty
<Acid-Bong>
well yeah
<testuser[m]>
u can do it but u will have to do some work, build everything with support for dbus and elogind and whatever
<testuser[m]>
kiss default is busybox init which is a stripped down version of runit btw
<testuser[m]>
but u can switch to the real runit
<Acid-Bong>
i tried using runit instead of baseinit, system didn't load 🤷
<Acid-Bong>
ok, i see xinit in the xorg repo, that's already great
<Acid-Bong>
does it work for the first installation, within chroot?
<testuser[m]>
wdym
<konimex>
I mean, sure, since the "installation" is literally extracting the chroot into a directory/mountpoint
<Acid-Bong>
i mean, the guide that testuser shared is on changing init, not installing it in the first place
<testuser[m]>
installing is just kiss b runit
<Acid-Bong>
or is the difference is that i can skip the part on killing the active init, since there's no such?
<Acid-Bong>
ah, i understood now
<Acid-Bong>
it showed me poweroff and reboot conflicts, and i didn't resolve them
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<hyrc_>
it's nice you're avoiding dbus
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<bibliocar_>
point about suckless having failed. I know it's bad to police language, but I do think they went about things the wrong way. It's really bad to be derisive to other people's work, especially when done for free(ish).
<bibliocar_>
should emphasize learning opportunities created by easy to understand software, and other benefits, instead of leading with how other people are doing it wrong.
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<bibliocar_>
I wonder how many of there "elite hackers" were just people wanting learn from simple software, and who wouldn't be able to make complex programs. What a terrible environment for people like that to begin getting involved.
<cem>
I disagree with your stance
<bibliocar_>
On what points?
<cem>
Sure they are really rude to people creating free software
<cem>
But some of those software are really harmful to the general environment of UNIX
<cem>
People like Poettering are envisioned to make Linux Windows-like
<cem>
Caring nothing about portability, compatibility, or hell, even security
<bibliocar_>
I mean, you can choose not to use the software, the rest is politics... except that's not true and I know it. Hmm.
<cem>
Not really
<cem>
You can't compile lots of software without gcc or clang
<bibliocar_>
My personal opinion is that systemd is vender lock-in in that people learn how to use it, instead of learning how the system works underneath.
<cem>
lots of stuff depends on udev
<bibliocar_>
But what about more grey areas like gnu?
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<cem>
Well, I'm more okay with gnu than lots of people here, but I still don't like most of their decisions
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<cem>
But I also get it, GNU was created as a competitor to a commercial system that was UNIX
<bibliocar_>
I guess by the same token I started with, judging suckless, ignoring standards and breaking compatability is bad on their part as well.
<bibliocar_>
Yeah, and gpl was on much less sure footing, so you have to make your software different.
<bibliocar_>
It seems like there was a time period where everyone was focussed on performance and features, and nowadays we just want something that'l work reliably.
<cem>
Yeah, I don't like that they are breaking lots of standards, but as I said, it was the correct move at that point of time
<cem>
Now that free software is easily and widely available, compatibility and standard compliance is much more important
<bibliocar_>
I'm not sure, though. I honestly don't like posix. I recognize it's by far the best we have, much better than stuff put out by redhat, but there needs to be a way for standards to compete in the way that software does.
<bibliocar_>
If that makes sense. I get very nervous about instutions to which there are no competitors.
<cem>
it has its flaws, but I think posix is pretty much alright
<cem>
also the flaws are usually due to conflicting historic implementations, so it's not really their fault
<bibliocar_>
Posix is about as good as it gets. And those who ignore it tend to do so sporatically, with surprise gotchas that are about as bad as you can get.
<bibliocar_>
But i think portability can also come from being well documented and simple code that could be easily adopted anywhere.
<bibliocar_>
It's funny, though, because people complain about ifdefs making complicated code, but what's the difference between that, and having different versions of the same software for different platforms? That's not a rhetorical question, by the way.
<bibliocar_>
I'm a newb
<testuser[m]>
Give an example where many ifdefs are required
<testuser[m]>
It will have different solution
<bibliocar_>
busybox >:
<testuser[m]>
Depending on what its for
<cem>
I don't think ifdefs are bad
<bibliocar_>
I guess not, I just read someone complain about a "maze of ifdefs" once.
<testuser[m]>
If ur just guarding a whole function with an ifdef then its fine
<cem>
Sure, if it's a maze of ifdefs, the code is harder to debug
<testuser[m]>
If u got 10 ifdefs in 1 function then not
<testuser[m]>
Busybox ifdefs seem fine, mostly for constants or debugging
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<bibliocar_>
Okay. Thank you.
<bibliocar_>
sometimes i wonder if I shouldn't like, somehow just put out a fork of something that's really just all the ifdefs configured to my specific purposes, and hack on that code only, porting changes upstream.
<bibliocar_>
scrolling is a pain.
<testuser[m]>
Lol u will have a bad time merging upstream fixes
<bibliocar_>
i have to go though, thanks.
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<midfavila-laptop>
morning everyone
<testuser[m]>
hi
<midfavila-laptop>
re: ifdefs fwiw plan 9's source tree didn't (doesn't?) have a single one for decades across like a dozen different architectures
<testuser[m]>
they used completely different sources then?
<midfavila-laptop>
no
<midfavila-laptop>
they just wrote portable code
<midfavila-laptop>
:v
<testuser[m]>
bruh
<midfavila-laptop>
don't optimize for a specific architecture and you won't need to rewrite shit for other architectures
<midfavila-laptop>
love me plan, love me nine. simple as.
<midfavila-laptop>
" Conditional compilation, even with #ifdef, is used sparingly in Plan 9. The only architecture-dependent #ifdefs in the system are in low-level routines in the graphics library. Instead, we avoid such dependencies or, when necessary, isolate them in separate source files or libraries. Besides making code hard to read, #ifdefs make it impossible to know what source is compiled into the binary or whether source protected by them will c
<midfavila-laptop>
ompile or work properly. They make it harder to maintain software."
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<op_4>
midfavila-laptop: i eventually sorted out {tinyramfs+LVM+LUKS,eiwd,FDE,grub} and now kiss boots to a functional system :D
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<foamingatmouth>
Hi has anyone had trouble building webkit2gtk? It manages to get all the way to 100% but fails saying that it can't find WebCore/CoordinatedGraphicsLayer.h
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<phoebos>
oh dip links supports finger://
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<midfavila-laptop>
grats op_4
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<Acid-Bong>
does glibc repo have no GnuPG signatures? or should i still set up the verification?
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<testuser[m]>
No
<testuser[m]>
It uses the kiss repo as a submodule for most packages so u could probably set up verification for the submodule
<testuser[m]>
But it's not required
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<bibliocar>
So heres a question: If there's a static only linux distribution, what's the point of file formats like elf?
<bibliocar>
I may be misunderstanding a lot.
<testuser[m]>
Static bin is still ELF
<bibliocar>
I'm wondering if there are fields and tables in there that are no longer used in that type of system.
<bibliocar>
or do static binaries use them, too?
<bibliocar>
I'll research this, and write about it later.
<noocsharp>
there are sections that aren't used, but these are just excluded in static binaries
<bibliocar>
Okay, I see it. I need to learn a bit more to know which is which though.
<phoebos>
eh, time to clear my 4.67GB ccache
<phoebos>
now i can breathe
<phoebos>
i wonder if i'll notice a difference now
<testuser[m]>
Soon
<phoebos>
compiling the kernel took maybe 25% longer /shrug
<phoebos>
and that was it making new cache as well
<phoebos>
ok what the fuck i needed to do this ages ago
<phoebos>
building with fresh cache took 3 minutes
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<phinxy>
200GB of cache - just a kisslinux thing
<phoebos>
phinxy: of ccache? owch
<phinxy>
the .cache from compiling countless of firefox's with KISS_DEBUG=1
<phoebos>
oh
<phoebos>
why do you do that
<phinxy>
Wanted to get LTO / PGO working
<cem>
don't you limit your cache size at all?
<cem>
200G is a lot
<phoebos>
why not test in the same tree rather than starting from scratch each time
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<phinxy>
cem, I removed /root/.cache/kiss, is there something automated for that?
<phoebos>
not sure what you want but there's kiss-cacheman
<phinxy>
phoebos, I felt at the time I wouldn't be able to reproduce KISS's buildscript, its not trivial
<phoebos>
you could always put a `sh > /dev/tty` at some point in the buildscript, and make sure to export all the required variables, and then test in there
<phinxy>
What would the `sh > /dev/tty` accomplish?
<phinxy>
launching a shell in the same state as the kiss buildscript is?
<phoebos>
yes
<phoebos>
so if you go in in the right place then you've got all the patches applied and can run ./mach build with your own options or whatever
<phoebos>
like for firefox, i'd put it on line 105 and then i've got all the variables ready
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<acheam>
thats a nifty idea
<acheam>
much more convinient than $KISS_DEBUG imo
<acheam>
I wonder if there is an easy way of duplicating the environment...