jackdaniel changed the topic of #commonlisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | Wiki: <https://www.cliki.net> | IRC Logs: <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/libera/%23commonlisp> | Cookbook: <https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook> | Pastebin: <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/>
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<RavenJoad> Hey all! I have a question real quick. I want to define something that subtypes the string type/class. But metaclasses get in the way. ,(defclass a-symbol (string) ())
<ixelp> (defclass a-symbol (string) ()) ERROR: The class #<BUILT-IN-CLASS STRING> was specified as a ↩ super-class of the class #<STANDARD-CLASS A-SYMBOL>; ↩ but the meta-classes #<STANDARD-CLASS BUILT-IN-CLASS> and ↩ #<STANDARD-CLASS STANDARD-CLASS> are incompatible.
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<semz> RavenJoad: Subclassing built-in classes is explicitly not allowed by the standard so that the implementation is free to choose more efficient representations that would conflict with such a thing
<RavenJoad> Ah. Ok. I missed that part then. I am defining a symbol class which is implemented just as a string for now. But I want to inherit the string functions/methods. Is there a way to accomplish that, since the standard says we cannot subclass built-ins?
<semz> for the sequence functions, you could check if your impl supports extensible sequences, but for the string functions I'm not so sure
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<RavenJoad> The symbol is for another language, not Lisp, so it should remain a string.
<RavenJoad> semz: I'm primarily using SBCL for now.
<semz> SBCL definitely supports extensible sequences at least
<RavenJoad> I also _technically_ test against ECL, but I haven't checked it for a long time.
<RavenJoad> I'm barely using any string functions/methods for symbols right now. The key thing I want is the initialization method for the symbol sanitizes and converts characters in the input string that are incompatible with the chosen compilation backend.
<RavenJoad> For example, Verilog disallows hyphens in symbols, but I am allowing them in my language, so when I switch from my language to Verilog, I want the Verilog symbol constructor to make the necessary replacements.
<semz> Would a simple string-to-string sanitization function suffice or is it important that they have a distinct type?
<semz> defining a print-object method that lets you use your symbols in format and friends could possibly also be a workaround depending on what you need
<RavenJoad> It is not terribly important that they have distinct types. I'm just an idiot and want things to tell me that I made a mistake about strings. I already have a string->string sanitizer defined. I just want it to be "automatic" by constructing an instance of a symbol.
<RavenJoad> In the long-run, the symbol might be backed by an interning structure to prevent redundant allocations for the same symbol.
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<beach> RavenJoad: What does it mean for your symbols class to be "implemented just as a string"?
<beach> If it is "implemented just as a string", then I would think it *is* a string, no?
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<RavenJoad> What I mean is that I want the freedom to change exactly how the symbol is backed. Right now the symbol foo-thing would be implemented as the string "foo-thing". In the future, I might change it to be a table index so foo-thing -> index 3, and index 3 -> "foo-thing".
<beach> That doesn't answer my question, but it's unimportant. The standard string functions work on the standard string class, so you can't reuse them for anything else.
<beach> And I don't know what it means for an object to be "backed".
<mange> If you want the freedom to replace the string with something else later then you can't write code against it as a string now. Even if you could subclass string, that would be a mistake because you don't *want* to call string functions on it. That would lock you into using a string.
<beach> And that, yes.
<RavenJoad> mange: You're right. But I'm lazy and don't know what methods I will use right now. So I was thinking sub-class string for now, see what I use, then if I change the backing implementation I will handle that later.
<RavenJoad> Backed is probably the wrong term too.
<mange> Right, but having to go through your code and change all the places where you assumed it was a string isn't much "freedom", to my mind. :)
<beach> RavenJoad: mange is right. You would want to define your own protocol (i.e., interface) to your symbol class.
<RavenJoad> It isn't, you're right. On the bright side, all uses of this class will occur inside the same package.
<beach> RavenJoad: And since you can't subclass STRING, it seems you have no choice.
<RavenJoad> beach: Right. I just don't know how much of an interface I need yet. Which is why I am falling back to using strings. I can treat things as if they were strings and handle the problem later.
<RavenJoad> But given that I cannot subclass, its sounding like you're both right.
<RavenJoad> Now to go off and define a whole new class again. I wish I could teach already-existing functions (uiop:strcat) about these objects, but that's a different problem.
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<beach> If the implementation of your SYMBOL class *contains* a string, you can just trampoline to the string functions. That's a much more sane way of doing it anyway.
<beach> As in (defun my-package:concatenate (symbol1 symbol2) (make-symbol (uiop:strcat (underlying-string symbol1) (underlying-string symbol2))))
<beach> RavenJoad: Then if you change the implementation of your SYMBOL class later, only two functions need to change, namely UNDERLYING-STRING and MAKE-SYMBOL.
<RavenJoad> That is what I was planning on doing for the things that did not accept strings. This subclass-ing business was just a way to skip having to implement functions/methods that I could not predict ahead-of-time.
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<RavenJoad> The subclass-ing business was just because I am lazy.
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<RavenJoad> I'm not even using any functions on these symbols right now, other than (format "~a" a-symbol), which I guess I will have to figure out how to define.
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<mange> That should be easy to do with print-object. ,(defclass a () ()) ,(defmethod print-object ((obj a) stream) (format stream "I'm an A!")) ,(format nil "~a" (make-instance 'a))
<ixelp> (defclass a () ()) => #<STANDARD-CLASS A> and (defmethod print-object ((obj a) stream) (format stream "I'm an A!")) => #<STANDARD-METHOD PRINT-OBJECT (A T)> finally (format nil "~a" (make-instance 'a)) => "I'm an A!"
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<RavenJoad> I didn't realize print-object was the method called for ~a, since I usually see that for REPL print-out. That's easier than I thought.
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<beach> RavenJoad: We need to work on your terminology. PRINT-OBJECT is a "generic function" that has methods on it. Methods are not called directly; generic functions are. The discriminating function of the generic function is what calls the method(s).
<RavenJoad> Right. I'm using my C++/Java OOP terminology bleed through.
<RavenJoad> s#using#letting#
<mange> I've been doing so much Ruby lately that I accidentally say "method" instead of "function" all the time.
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<aeth> Terminology is annoyingly slightly (or significantly) different in every programming language, even similar ones (like Scheme to CL)
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<Pixel_Outlaw> aeth, especially when people say that a "method belongs to an object" but in CL a method is more of a dispatch mechanism.
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<aeth> try to communicate about a 'vector' to someone using another programming language, too
<aeth> in some languages it implies adjustable, while in CL it just implies 1D
<aeth> (adjustable is a bit... unusual since mathematical/physics vectors aren't)
<aeth> I'm sure I've implied it's adjustable 100 times without realizing it
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<Pixel_Outlaw> hash maps, dictionaries, hash tables etc
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<aeth> Python's "list" is a particularly bad misuse (since that name, everywhere else, implies linked list)
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<beach> That's what I thought before I talked to my theoretician colleagues, who think "list" is an abstract data type that I would call a "sequence".
<beach> So not "everywhere".
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<Alfr> So, your "sequences" are finite?
<beach> Yes, the abstract data type I was thinking of then would be finite.
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<beach> The operations would take an index, like finding an element at an index, inserting an element before an element at an index, deleting an element at an index.
<beach> s/finding/returning/
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<beach> Actually, I have usually called it "editable sequence" to distinguish it from the Common Lisp SEQUENCE class.
<Alfr> Makes sense. (Though, can't play Hilbert's hotel with them.)
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<aeth> Alfr: well, in mathematics, sequences are often defined to be infinite. Or at least, the infinite ones are the object of interest (and you look to see if e.g. they converge or not... unordered sets and ordered n-tuples (e.g. ordered pairs) tend to be the finite things you encounter)
<aeth> so it makes sense that to avoid any kind of confusion, another term could be used, such as, I guess "list"
<aeth> There is a lot of confusion in terminology here, though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequence
<aeth> Wikipedia says that "finite sequences are usually called strings, words or lists" in CS
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<varjag> ugh were there changes in old api condition variables handling of bordeux-thread lately
<varjag> +s
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<beach> varjag: Did you read about the migration to version 2?
<varjag> i am not migrating to version 2, that's the thing
<beach> I see.
<ixelp> Fix condition-variables for Lispworks · sionescu/bordeaux-threads@042e3b0
<fe[nl]ix> varjag: that change was requested by the Lispworks developers
<fe[nl]ix> newer LW simply wraps the POSIX condition variables in libc
<fe[nl]ix> and you should migrate to apiv2
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<varjag> i had a shot at apiv2 before, there were some cross compatibility issues between lw 8 and ccl 11 iirc
<varjag> fe[nl]ix: and fair enough just that it introduced new issues now
<varjag> oh well had to fix them at some point anyway i guess
<fe[nl]ix> please open an issue on Github, and a reduced test case would be very useful
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<fe[nl]ix> the problem is likely in the custom condition variables we use for CCL
<varjag> will do
<varjag> would need to reproduce that one first, it was at least a year ago
<varjag> it could also be it works better on ccl v12+ but those just crash on my arm32 target
<varjag> ttyl
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<screwlisp> Lispy gopher climate soon/in one hour, notes on my first language parser implementation (chinese chess hosted by common lisp) since it's not the direct topic of my ELS submission. ACM LaTeX templates relatedly, inequality essay by KMP, I'm holding out hope that one of you self-selects into being a guest now or in the future. https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio
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<screwlisp> https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio 15 minutes. I spent the last hour reading Didier's binary methods in CLOS using thet MOP 2008 article so that's now the unofficial topic ;p