<ixelp>
LISP: Lex Fridman's favorite programming language - YouTube
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<younder>
On the whole a lot of video's no podcasts.
<JohanP>
thanks. looking for some series which talks about programming and the state of the eco system. for Clojure both Function Design in Clojure and defn are very good
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<bjorkintosh>
JohanP: likelier to find a blog or paper for that.
<craigbro>
have you gone thru the R Hickey and Clojure/Conj talks? or Strange Loop talks?
<craigbro>
also the London Clojure meetups has frequent talks
<JohanP>
yes for Clojure there is a lot of things. looing specifically for Common Lisp
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<JohanP>
i agree LondonClojurians is a fantastic resource
<aeth>
craigbro: Rich Hickey and Clojure stuff don't really seem in line with the Common Lisp way. Not surprisingly, since Clojure is its own thing with a far more opinionated way to do things, which CL doesn't do well natively without libraries.
<aeth>
"The Clojure way" sort of thing is probably the most alien part about Clojure to a Common Lisper
<aeth>
Iirc, "data-driven" (not to be confused with "data-oriented'), etc.
<craigbro>
aeth: are you referring to things like uniform, immutable collections vs. CLOS and lisp1 vs. lisp2?
<aeth>
well, no, lisp1 vs lisp2 is quite tame and well-understood
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<craigbro>
feel like the embedding in jvm is more of a jump
<craigbro>
no restarts was an adjustement too
<aeth>
But e.g. Common Lisp is what is now called "gradually typed" (even if it was first, probably by over a decade), i.e. a dynamically (runtime) typed language with optional type annotations for bindings (for the compilation time).
<craigbro>
that Jan Sulmont presentation is a good history tour BTW, and presents CL and Clojure in contrast, quite well
<aeth>
And Common Lisp, of course, doesn't really have much immutability at all, and is more a language for writing functional programming languages rather than one itself.
<craigbro>
aeth: are you familiar with Ambrose Bonnaire-Sergeant's work at typedclojure.org?
<aeth>
Well, just checking, it's still about structural typing on maps (in its elevator pitch on the homepage), because that's the Clojure way.
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<craigbro>
yah, but covers other types, a type algebra etc..
<aeth>
This is a significant difference from CL where if you wanted to lean fully into types you'd use, well, structs.
<aeth>
Even if some on the more OOP side of things would like to see structs deprecated entirely.
<craigbro>
yah, with an explicit type tag etc... clojure can do that too
<craigbro>
I missed CLOS generics when I moved to clojure
<aeth>
And people have implemented Clojure's data structures and macros, etc., into Common Lisp. But the common paths are significantly different.
<craigbro>
method combinations especially
<craigbro>
yah, FSET
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<aeth>
I wouldn't really say that CL has one idiomatic way, though. There are definitely people who lean heavily into CLOS generics. And people who lean heavily into lower-level numeric/array code (probably the only crowd that bothers with compiler macros). And people who lean heavily into functional programming. And people who write CL in a more traditional Lisp procedural way. Etc.
<aeth>
If anything, the thing about CL is that even though the syntax and basic conventions (e.g. on indentation and bracket placement and naming) are quite uniform, the actual implementations and logic can vary wildly.
<aeth>
This is probably precisely why the syntax and conventions are so uniform.
<aeth>
But all of these groups, even the FP ones, do it differently than how Clojure does it.
<craigbro>
Agreed on the multi-paradigm/idiom nature of CL, I think it's an artifact of it being a full systems development langauge, not not just a situated or enterprise data processing language
<aeth>
When I see FP in CL, it's very ML/Haskell and may even have its own adhoc typeclass implementation.
<aeth>
Whether it basically becomes its own language (Coalton) or not
<aeth>
It does not generally lean into dynamicness, possibly because Clojure or Scheme has already taken such people, and possibly because dynamic-oriented Common Lispers tend to prefer CLOS instead of FP.
<aeth>
At least, in my limited experience.
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<craigbro>
I find myself back here with CL and Scheme because of clojure dep on the JVM, actually
<bjorkintosh>
what's wrong with the jvm dependency, craigbro?
<bjorkintosh>
at this point it's established.
<bjorkintosh>
java and the jvm are boring tech.
<bjorkintosh>
(this is a good thing)
<craigbro>
performance, complexity, and mem mgmt complexity
<jackdaniel>
java is better common lisp, it wouldn't eat its cake if it weren't ,)
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* jackdaniel
runs from before he gets stoned
<craigbro>
also, we don't need that JVM abstraction from the host anymore, and we have containers,or nix, which are superior to jars
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<bjorkintosh>
containers are hideous!
<craigbro>
and I am honestly not sure how rational my aversion is, years of CL and Clojure and straight Java
<jackdaniel>
it is not that common lisp comes without a runtime
<bjorkintosh>
I've recently confronted my computing purity prejudices by deliberately learning C. It's still in progress.
<jackdaniel>
the fact that it is not not standardized is not a benefit
<craigbro>
CL is a full system dev langauge, java will never be, either
<jackdaniel>
so you trade JVM with "whatever cl has", i.e JVM in case of ABCL ,p
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<aeth>
jackdaniel: more than that, Java is the best game development platform, as evidenced by the overwhelming success of Minecraft and the inability of Microsoft to fully replace Java Minecraft even today.
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<dnhester26>
dmho: thanks for your answer! I just read it. Wait, so how did you integrate arrow functions into parenscript? did you fork the project? have you done a pull request?
<dnhester26>
dmho: this is my first time hearing about stylexjs, thanks for the information. This is fascinating, how come you decided to use vanilla js instead of leveraging the large existing ecosystems? are you building something very unique and not a traditional web app?
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<screwlisp>
Lispy gopher climate live in an hour! https://anonradio:8443/anonradio since sacha (emacsnews) and Shizamura (Sarilho) both talked about building unexpected communities, I have visited medium.com/@screwlisp to find the lisp community over there. People-who-did-lisp-in-the-80s, a Japanese accountant who was captivated by a lisp1.5 prolog implementation as a young man, and when on to implement ISLISP and n-prolog them
<screwlisp>
selves..! And these weird apocryphal ghost stories other people tell about the lisp community. I'll keep one quarter of an eye over here.
<screwlisp>
*went on
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