jackdaniel changed the topic of #commonlisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | Wiki: <https://www.cliki.net> | IRC Logs: <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/libera/%23commonlisp> | Cookbook: <https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook> | Pastebin: <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/>
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<NotThatRPG_away> Spawns_Carpeting: It's not an alias, but it does invoke ASDF:LOAD-SYSTEM (under at least some circumstances).
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<jasom> 6~/buffer 16
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<beach> Can I please ask people who have Common Lisp implementations other than SBCL installed to fill in this issue and send me a pull request: https://github.com/s-expressionists/wscl/blob/main/wscl-issues/proposed/package-used-by-list-type-error ?
<ixelp> wscl/package-used-by-list-type-error at main · s-expressionists/wscl · GitHub
<beach> Thanks in advance!
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<beach> I guess the additional information is small enough that you can just tell me here what your Common Lisp implementations return, and I'll fill it in.
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<hayley> I get a list of packages on ECL 16.1.3, Clozure 1.12 and ABCL 1.7.0.
<beach> Thanks, I'll add those.
<beach> Done.
<phoe> beach: done.
<beach> Thank you. Can you supply versions for CLISP, LispWorks, Allegro, and Clasp, please?
<beach> Oh, found them.
<beach> Sorry.
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<hayley> stylewarning: I modified cl-algebraic-data-type to use newlines while pretty-printing, and the indentation has already shown me the critical path in this circuit I'm designing.
<stylewarning> hayley: plz submit patches that improve printing in any way; i don't think it respects a bunch of ansi variables
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<hayley> I think there need to be strategically-placed quotes, since #.(primop or (#.foo #.bar)) is not going to work.
<stylewarning> i hope pipeline is a reference to what i think it is
<hayley> I'm writing a program to generate pipelines, since seemingly the manufacturer of the FPGAs I'm experimenting with couldn't.
<stylewarning> i thought it had to be an HB reference
<stylewarning> why doesn't there exist a common lisp iceberg (meta-)meme
<hayley> Reminds me that somehow the pipeline.com mail server still exists, and I want to send an email.
* hayley continues to find uses for CLIM:FORMAT-GRAPH-FROM-ROOTS
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<mariari> is there a good way to call the internals of CLIM:FORMAT-GRAPH-FROM-ROOTS, I find that for what I'm doing I'm wanting its logic, but I need to custom name the arrows, put some in boxes etc
<mariari> Was looking at the source before to see what I can split up, but got side tracked with other work
<hayley> One can put nodes in boxes by surrounding-output-with-border, which I just had to remember, but I don't know about labelling edges.
<mariari> yeah I've done that, by cutting off the graph before and restarting it within the box, but doens't make for a very seamless experience when you are wanting to say put parts of the overall graphs within a box
<mariari> so you can pass in an arrow function, but it is not called on the objects to and from, I'm going to make a better layout for my CLIM structure later, but I'll likely be copying most of the logic from CLIM:FORMAT-GRAPH-FROM-ROOTS
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<john-a-carroll> mariari: if you pass an arc-drawer function, it should be called with the from-object and to-object as its 2nd and 3rd arguments. If this isn't working for you, you might like to follow up on #clim
<mariari> john-a-carroll: I did not know that, thank you I can try looking at that
<jackdaniel> that's quite dated ecl version
<beach> jackdaniel: If you tell me a later version and you confirm that it still returns a list of packages, I'll update the issue.
<jackdaniel> sure, I need to do some paperwork first
<beach> No rush.
<jackdaniel> I'll post under the issue when I catch up with a backlog
<beach> OK.
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<jackdaniel> beach: the result is the same for the most recent release (and the development head); the most recent release is 21.2.1
<beach> I'll use the release. Thank you!
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<jackdaniel> mariari: john-a-carroll: hayley: you may see how alternative layouts may be created in the cl-dot extension written by etimmons
<jackdaniel> s/cl-dot/mcclim-dot/
<jackdaniel> there is some documentation in Extensions/dot/README.md
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<hayley> After fixing my FMAP function unsharing IR nodes, I now have data-flow spaghetti and couldn't be happier.
<jackdaniel> hayley: mcclim-dot uses graphviz to do the layout, so you may try that instead
<mariari> thank you jackdaniel I'll read through it
<jackdaniel> sure
<jackdaniel> from other McCLIM news, the sdl2 backend and a guide for writing interactive backends is converging nicely
<mariari> sdl2 is a new backend? does it have similar issues with previous draws sticking around (is that due to double buffering?)
<jackdaniel> it is not yet relesed, no; as of issues - is this reproducible? I don't see glitches sticking around
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<mariari> jackdaniel: I believe so, when I used the tutorial code for moving around nodes in the graph, it sometimes leaves some of the drawings behind https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/6871201/72970749-8efe3780-3dc8-11ea-8a30-0c523f5d2514.gif the gif here shows the same effect but for what this user was creating in https://github.com/McCLIM/McCLIM/issues/948
<hayley> jackdaniel: Thanks. That is nicer on the eyes.
<jackdaniel> mariari: I see, thanks; this issue seems to be pre-double buffering
<jackdaniel> re sdl2 backend - I don't know it - the fact that it is converging nicely does not mean that it 100% works yet :)
<jackdaniel> hayley: sure
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<Spawns_Carpeting> NotThatRPG_away: I forgot that alias has a specific meaning here in lisp land, well I think it does anyways
<Spawns_Carpeting> Although I should have known that since elisp has aliases as well
<Spawns_Carpeting> By the way, I tried the sly emacs package and was incredibly impressed with how cool it was
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<prokhor> I would like to read statements written in another implementation/dialect: is it possible to turn of any sanity-checks for (read)? (so it wont complain about syntax errors...)
<beach> prokhor: You may want to use Eclector for such cases.
<Bike> depends on what kind of syntax error you're concerned with. some are not recoverable.
<prokhor> beach: thx, found it!
<prokhor> Bike: basically everything: I merely want to find out where stuff like macros are declared and where they are callec in bigger systems
<beach> prokhor: Well, if your dialect uses simple S-expressions, then there should be no problem, but I guess there must be some syntax of tokens and such that violate Common Lisp syntax, yes?
<prokhor> beach: not sure yet: my first tests were with the Mezzano sources (I hacked a python script together for that)...
<prokhor> but analyzing lisp code in python is somewhat weird...
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<scymtym> Eclector should be able recover from all errors (with somewhat arbitrary results, of course) if the input is common lisp code. for extensions and customized behaviors, the ability to recover from errors will be limited (to calls back into eclector code)
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<Bike> yeah, i'm thinking of stuff like unknown reader macros
<beach> I am betting it is mostly a matter of unknown packages.
<_death> note that even the vanilla CL reader has *read-suppress*
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<prokhor> using my python script, the biggest challenge is to figure out, what belongs to an s-expression and what doesnt...
<beach> prokhor: You mean excluding comments and such?
<prokhor> beach: yes: open genera for instance has a lot of LOCs not beginning with ; or parentheses
<beach> Oh, but Lisp is not line oriented, so a compound expression can span several lines.
<prokhor> beach: thats the point: i simply would read in all toplevel functions in a file and treat them as quoted lists...
<prokhor> like:
<beach> Uh oh! Don't paste more than one line in the channel, please.
<prokhor> (if (equal (car list) "defun" ....
<beach> Whew! :)
<prokhor> Beach: noted :)
<beach> Yes, but I mean, it is normal for lines to start with things other than semicolon or parenthesis.
<beach> Your analysis should not be line based.
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<prokhor> it is not: but the python solution is unrewarding, as i have to decide, which line belongs to an sexpr in order to parse it into nested lists...
<beach> I take your word for it.
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<pjb> prokhor: if you insist, you'd have to use (let ((list '(defun foo (x) (- x 2)))) (if (string-equal (car list) "defun") 'a-defun 'nope)) #| --> a-defun |#
<pjb> prokhor: but the real advice would be to forget python, and start learning lisp…
<prokhor> pjb: :D
<prokhor> lisp reader functions with suppressed reading are not that trivial :)
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<pjb> prokhor: the point is that reader macros can still have side effects, and you would still have to manage packages.
<pjb> prokhor: if you are reading sources with READ or similar, you need the packages, and you need to track in-package forms (evaluate them).
<_death> prokhor: I used eclector for this kind of stuff and put up some examples at https://github.com/death/formgrep
<ixelp> GitHub - death/formgrep: Try to find top-level Lisp forms matching an operator regex
<pjb> prokhor: hence the use of libraries such as eclector or com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.reader to read lisp sources without having to intern symbols.
<pjb> prokhor: but if you want to identify macros, you would have to evaluate in at least some way, some compilation-time toplevel forms, since macros can be defined in other macros… Basically, like in python, to know if (moo 42) is a macro form, you need to evaluate every preceding toplevel form.
<pjb> Trying to evaluate partially to only note that moo could be a macro generated by some other macros or functions would be equivalent to the termination problem. This could be done with some ad-hoc heuristics for the usual cases, but it wouldn't be safe to assume they would always work.
<prokhor> pjb: in case of open genera, every macro is defined somewhere using defmacro, the thing is the files are a complete mess if you want to figure the sequence in which tey are loaded...
<pjb> prokhor: in short, just load your sources, and use introspection operators. (let ((form '(defun foo (x) (+ 2 x0)))) (and (fboundp (car form)) (macro-function (car form)) t)) #| --> t |#
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<pjb> prokhor: I wouldn't bet on your assertion! Most probably, in any big system such as general, there are macros that are generated from other macros or functions.
<pjb> s/general/genera/
<pjb> the problem is with this "somewhere". You cannot expect finding those places by reading the sources.
<pjb> prokhor: now, there may be another problem: genera AFAIK is not programmed in Common Lisp. There may be some CL in there, but there's probably some other lisp used for the system. So if you try to load the genera sources, you will have to do that in the genera system itself, or you would have to implement a compatibility layer to be able to load this genera lisp in a CL implementation.
<Fare> or port the software to modern lisp.
<pjb> That said, using ad-hoc heuristics can lead you far enough for your purpose. You may have 1% or 2% of cases where some manual handling will be required, ant his may be acceptable.
<prokhor> that would be a long-term goal: it is written in old implementations of commonlisp (from the era before standardization) like symbolics common lisp
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<beach> prokhor: What is your goal with this exercise?
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<prokhor> beach: to read / grasp code beyond the level of toy programs
<prokhor> also:
<prokhor> to get a tool for "software archaeology"
<pjb> Then using the mentionned libraries would be useful, I'd say.
<beach> prokhor: I see.
<prokhor> beach: the final tool should give me a list of which component calls which other, optionally a list of the exact order in which to load all the files
<pjb> again, yet another undecidable problem. Once upon a time, I solved it by adding declarations in files to indicate dependencies. But if you count on the code it self to determine it, I can show you code with circular dependencies and other horrors such that it's impossible to do it automatically!
<ixelp> tools/make-depends.lisp · master · com-informatimago / com.informatimago · GitLab
<pjb> the real solution is to write yourself (with your intelligence and understanding of the system) an asd file describing those dependencies.
<pjb> In real system, what you will observe, (besides the circular dependencies), is that some files must be loaded twice, some definitions are temporary and duplicated with more complete definitions in other files, and you need to determine what file to load first, what files to load in between, and what file to load last to redefine the operator, and other such horros.
<pjb> +r
<pjb> prokhor: see for example, how sbcl defines car as: (defun car (x) (car x))
<pjb> and here the dependency is not even between files, but between programs: the call to car inside the defun car is processed by the compiler!
<pjb> (if you just used LOAD you would get a circular definition, but when you use COMPILE-FILE, you get the right code. Arguably, this is not Common Lisp, but that's the kind of real actual sources you find in those big systems).
<pjb> and note that "AIs" such as chatgpt are far to understand such subtleties…
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<beach> prokhor: I would think that reading code after it has passed through READ would be very hard, no? Things like comments are no longer there. And the code layout may give some hints to the person reading that code, and that layout is also gone.
<prokhor> beach: it only should serve as a cursory first gist: for detailed analysis i would consult the original file...
<beach> OK, I see.
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<NotThatRPG_away> prokhor: I wonder if you could do something to disable some of what the reader normally does (e.g., reader conditionals) so that you see more of the file?
<pjb> sure, using those libraries mentionned above, you can read comments and alternative forms (#+/#-), etc.
<pjb> Read in a way; you get objects representing those syntaxes. You then have to "interpret" them.
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<johnjaye> is chatgpt that super ai text bot everyone is using now
<jackdaniel> yes, we've replaced all live participants for the upgraded version (chad gpt)
<jackdaniel> ,(print "it's true")
<ixelp> (print "it's true") ↩ "it's true" => "it's true"
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<pjb> ,(write-line "It's true!")
<ixelp> (write-line "It's true!") It's true! ↩ => "It's true!"
<pjb> Nice newline…
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<peterhil_> Is there a cool web framework nowadays that is comparable to Uncommon Web?
<peterhil_> Have you done web sites lately with Common Lisp, and what have you used?
<mfiano> I think most people either use clack or roll their own.
<mfiano> THere is also Radiance, which seems to be popular
<peterhil_> mfiano: Thanks, will check that out.
<holycow> and clog
<mfiano> Oh yes, CLOG for interfaces too!
<Fade> weblocks has similar semantics and has been revised by 40ants as reblocks
<peterhil_> Fade: Oh, cool!
<Fade> although I think the code walker in uncommon web is a bit better.
<Fade> UCW was markedly ahead of its time.
<peterhil_> Can you build a binary with those, like you could with Uncommon Web?
<holycow> clog can yes
<Fade> I haven't tried, but I don't see any specific barrier from what I know about the system.
<peterhil_> I am planning to start a new project that is a social event calendar, especially for musical events. I thouth of using Rails + ArangoDB, but the driver situatation seems bad. That's why I am looking for other options.
<peterhil_> Have you used graph databases with Common Lisp?
<Fade> it would be ironic if you found the ecosystem support for a lisp framework more exhaustive than rails
<peterhil_> I know there are some Lisp specific ones also.
<Fade> :)
<peterhil_> Fade: I know it's a long shot, but there are other things that might compansate... :-D
<Fade> I've used some document dbs
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<Fade> the only free graph db I know about is Vivace Graph
<Fade> which I haven't used.
<Fade> alegrograph is obviously well supported in that environment.
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<Fade> now that I look, there appears to have been some recent work in using postgres as a graph db.
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<Fade> I don't see any specific support for arango, but I'll leave that google-ing to you.
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<Fade> Radiance is also a super interesting system.
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<peterhil_> Fade: I just realised using PostGres as a storage backend could be useful because of PostGIS geospatial features.
<Fade> in my experience, postgresql is only very rarely the wrong choice.
<peterhil_> Fade: I agree. Did I understand correctly that you meant that some graph databases offer it as a storage backend, or did you mean something else?
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<Fade> I _think_ there has been some work integrating graph support in postgres. I don't know how it is arranged.
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<peterhil_> I found this, but the write speed is NOT convincing at 5 per second for both nodes and relations: https://tech.ingrid.com/sql-as-graph-database/
<ixelp> Using PostgreSQL as a graph database | Ingrid Tech
<Fade> try prototyping it with vivace graph.
<Fade> if you outrun your prototype, you can buy alegro. :)
<Fade> or, just use a relational database.
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<peterhil_> Vivace Graph documentation is not so great.
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<peterhil_> I found Apache AGE, which seems more promising: https://age.apache.org/
<peterhil_> It is a graph DB extension for PostGreSQL.
<peterhil_> I think I will really need some graph traversal algorithms available. So using a relational database to model a graph is out of question.
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<Fade> how big is this data? seems to me that it's trivial to model a graph in CLOS.
<Fade> or maybe you're the hero needed to fix the vivace documentation. :D
<peterhil_> I have made a simple prototype for handling browser bookmarks some years ago with Rails and Neo4j. That is so simple use case that using a relational DB would have worked, but it was a learning excercise about using graph databases generally.
<peterhil_> Fade: I expect the data to be all artists in a few cities, all the gigs they have or will do and all the venues related to those. And other things...
<Fade> so, not that big.
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<peterhil_> No initially, but it could grow in the best case if the service will gain popularity.
<Fade> try vivace. if you already understand graph databases, it's probably not too big a stretch.
<peterhil_> And I really do not want to workaround arounbd SQL limitations as there are much more pleasant graph query languages to use.
<peterhil_> Fade: I might try a prototype with Vivace and some web framework. And another one with Rails and then decide about the stack.
<Fade> that sounds like a really arduous path to getting something you like.
<peterhil_> Years ago the situation was almost similar with graph DB drivers on Rails, but still I managed. :-)
<Fade> I encourage you to get involved with the resources already available in lisp and help them meet your needs.
<peterhil_> Fade: I agree, but I get to know the new Lisp web frameworks in the process. :-D
<peterhil_> Fade: I recently started to use Mastodon, and realised that the ActivityPub used for content federation is a W3C standard, and that gave me some ideas. That's why I think having a binary release would be VERY advantageous.
<Fade> generate an activitypub installation for common lisp and you'd have some fans. :)
<peterhil_> I plan to make the project open source, so people in different cities and different musical genres could sertup, maintain and moderate their community.
<Fade> s/installation/implementation
<peterhil_> Fade: I'd guess so!
* Fade notes that UCW still exists.
<Fade> it even quickloads.
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<peterhil_> The UCW repo seems to be gone though
<Fade> it's in quicklisp
<Fade> I'm not sure where xach is getting it.
<Fade> there's some info at ucw.common-lisp.dev
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<ixelp> ucw / ucw-core · GitLab
<Fade> kk. I'm off. good luck!
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<peterhil_> Fade: Oh, thanks for the repo and conversation!
<peterhil_> Last commit 11 years ago. :-)
<peterhil_> Back then I was so excited about UCW that I had some discussions with drewc, who took up the maintenance.
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<ixelp> GNU Common Lisp - News: GCL 2.6.13 is released [Savannah]
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<Josh_2> How many people use GCL? 0?
<Josh_2> Crazy getting an update after 8 years
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<jackdaniel> clisp was not released for longer time
<jackdaniel> I didn't know you make statistics - care-to-share?
<Josh_2> "GCL's usefulness can be fairly limited outside Maxima or ACL2 "
<Josh_2> oof
<Josh_2> jackdaniel: its from the link you said
<Josh_2> On the right
<Josh_2> 2.6.12 released in 2014
<yitzi> A lot of maxima builds use SBCL or ECL now.
<jackdaniel> that's understandable, the person who forked gcl created maxima
<jackdaniel> I'm personally impressed that Camm Maguire sticks to the project for so long and slowly moves forward towards ansi compliance
<Josh_2> Agreed
<Josh_2> its very impressive
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<Fare> Camm was uninterested in replying to the patches and bug reports I sent to make ASDF happy on GCL.
<yitzi> That is not the only issue with GCL. We abandoned it for maxima-jupyter.
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<Fare> how much of maxima still doesn't work on sbcl?
<Fare> (or ACL2)
<yitzi> I don't know of anything, but I am not using it extensively right now. You'd probably have to ask one of the maintainers.
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<Alfr> jackdaniel, oh, that's what it is called (or at least how you call it). :)
<jackdaniel> Alfr: it is late and I do not understand complex sentences at this hour :) what and how do I call?
<Alfr> jackdaniel, conformal array displacement; though my wrapper isn't adjustable etc.
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<jackdaniel> (for people wondering - it is a continuation from a brief exchange on #lispcafe) -- the name conformal displacement comes from symbolics lisp (it may be seen used on the video I've linked on the other channel)
<jackdaniel> Fare: how is your scheme journey?
<Alfr> Ah, wrong channel.
<mfiano> Spent the last couple weeks trying to make "conformal displacement 'in user-space' (and more) wrapper", and finally gave up today.
<jackdaniel> mfiano: I've written a blog post about it and even implemented it "in user space"
<mfiano> Damn I should have checked. I had an interesting idea on how to try doing it, but it didn't pan out.
<ixelp> TurtleWare
<jackdaniel> maybe not as efficient as one could count, but it works like a charm
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<Fare> jackdaniel, interrupted by divorce and looking for money, but I'm back at it.
<jackdaniel> ouch, sorry to hear that
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<Fare> I'm generally happier in the much smaller but much friendly community there.
<Fare> friendlier
<Fare> (The "Scheme community" mostly doesn't exist and is utterly dysfunctional. The community I'm discussing is the Gerbil Scheme community. I'm sure other implementations also have good communities too, just disjoint.)
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