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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<mason>
beach: o/
<beach>
mason: How is learning Common Lisp going?
<mason>
beach: At thirty years in, I feel like I'm finally hitting my stride and will be there any day now.
<beach>
Excellent!
<mason>
If I can make myself swear off Perl and C I'll go faster I think.
<beach>
Maybe so.
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<mason>
beach: How about with you?
<mason>
Which is to say, we're always learning. What's crept up on you that now seems new and useful?
<beach>
That's a very good question. I would have to think about that one. And you are right of course; we are all still learning.
<masinter>
don't forget that we're also all still forgetting
<mason>
masinter: That makes re-reading books quite a bit more enjoyable than it would be otherwise.
<beach>
masinter: Absolutely, and it is getting a lot worse with age, I find. :(
<masinter>
forgetting is uneven
<mason>
Evidently even mild COVID infections have a measurable cognitive impact, excitingly. Been lucky so far but I won't guess how long that luck will hold.
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<masinter>
i keep on finding lisp code that says i wrote it but i have no memory of
<beach>
Welcome to the club.
<mason>
Armstrong talks about that in his "The Mess We're In" talk, which I love.
<beach>
Oh, I think I watched that talk.
<beach>
I don't like him as a speaker, but he is experienced that's for sure.
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<mason>
masinter: What's your history that connects you? beach's comment that you'd know better than anyone here makes me curious, along with the photos.
<masinter>
i was involed in Interlisp development from 73 until about 86
<mason>
Oh, neat.
<masinter>
i was on the common lisp committee x3j13
<masinter>
and chaired the "cleanup" subcommittee which did all the issues you find in the hyperspec
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<mason>
masinter: So, what do you like for production nowadays, if you see Lisp as primarily useful for prototypes?
<masinter>
the closest i got to production code was at Adobe
<mason>
Theoretically, even if you're not doing it yourself.
<masinter>
most of Adobe was using C++
<masinter>
java for servers
<masinter>
these days... i don't know
<masinter>
Javascript is interesting
<masinter>
node.js
<masinter>
the problem is devops
<mason>
Those are still reasonable. Honestly I tend to think that programmers envision relationships between data and operations on the data and the language is largely irrelevant, but that's maybe countered by the benefit of having libraries available and some inherent space and time efficiency some languages might have that others don't.
<Guest74>
mason: I code looked like a foreign language for almost 18 months after the first time I got covid. I don't recommend it.
<mason>
Guest74: My hope is that we'll understand the mechanisms well enough to counter them before long.
<mason>
masinter: What do you think of Graham's Blub argument?
<masinter>
i don't know it.... i was not thinking about Lisp for 20 years until i started on the medley revival
<mason>
(I used to give it more weight than I do now as I've settled on the notion that the ideas exist independent of the details of implementation.)
<masinter>
i used to give a talk called "A program is not its listing"
<mason>
It's fairly well-known so you've probably encountered it.
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<masinter>
i think you shouldn't trust people who implemented a lisp to be good judges of what it takes to learn it
<mason>
I don't think that's so much an argument for how to learn it as it is about why you'd want to, based on the notion that your vocabulary defines what you can think, which is the question I was asking. I'm not sure that it does.
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<mason>
Or rather, I think at a certain point all the essential concepts are there regardless of what conveniences a language gives you. You're looking at the work that needs to be done rather than the form it has to take in a particular language.
<masinter>
well, what surprised me was how much of interlisp i remembered
<masinter>
there's a level of fluency
<masinter>
you're fluent in french when you know the vocabulary so well, you have the vocabulary of a fluent native speaker
<mason>
Play Scrabble with my older two girls tonight. Family rules, you can challenge based on meaning. If you don't know the word, you can't use it.
<mason>
s/Play/&ed/
<Nilby>
Hmmm. When I wrote in blub C++, I over-used macros, functors/lambdas, wacky keyword arguments, and even GC sometimes. Switching to Lisp all those things were much easier.
<masinter>
you have to stock up learning the meaning of all two letter words
<mason>
masinter: I hate when people do that. They mostly don't know what they mean.
<mfiano>
mason: A few weeks ago I asked where I recognized your nick from in #freebsd. It all clicks into place now.
<mason>
mfiano: You recognize my nick from a bunch of different channels. :P
<mfiano>
Maybe, but I only remember #freebsd and #zfs :)
<masinter>
i think devops needs something better than /bin/sh and docker yaml
<mason>
The Scrabble thing, though - I love that they're learning to quickly iterate through combinations and apply those to the board, which is a grid where you fight out resource control. I'm teaching them to play densely and defensively.
<mason>
The same two kids are going through Barski with me.
<beach>
Oh, "Land of Lisp"? Sorry to hear that.
<mfiano>
I smell a link to horrible book mistakes coming
<mason>
beach: What would you rather see? I used to idolize PAIP but then I realize he expects you to use techniques before he presents them.
<mason>
beach: So, PAIP, it seems like you're intended to give up when you don't have the technique coming in the next chapter. I've seen PCL trashed for being Javalike, probably in here. No one seems to recommend Graham.
<beach>
But then, I was told that all those errors are part of the "fun". Maybe it's just me.
<mason>
*Is* there a book worth using?
<beach>
mason: PCL is good. So is PAIP.
<mason>
beach: Am I misunderstanding PAIP with the exercises being ~impossible without what comes in the next chapter?
<beach>
mason: I don't know. I never do the exercises in books I read.
<mason>
That'd be the way to use PAIP then. Heh.
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<beach>
Different subject: So since lisp123 flaked out on me, who is going to write a calendar program (similar to Google calendar) using McCLIM for us?
<masinter>
what would you use as the shared data store?
<beach>
I was thinking of a program for local use mostly. Maybe share using a text file on GitHub or similar.
<beach>
Oh, missed that one. I should check it out. Thanks!
<mason>
I approve of not wanting a web browser for the purpose.
<masinter>
github has given us lots of problems making it work with interllisp file manager
<mason>
Honestly my calendar emits a report via email daily, and I enter and change things directly in psql.
<beach>
It looks unfinished, but it might be a reasonable start.
<masinter>
does anyone have a git diff that works for lisp?
<beach>
masinter: Like I said, I haven't given sharing much thought.
<beach>
mason: Maybe my request came out as my needing a calendar program. That's not the case, at least not urgently. It is more that I try to encourage people to contribute to a set of applications that I would ultimately like to see on a Lisp-only system.
<mason>
A'ight, snagging a second copy of PCL so the older kids can each have one, in case I go that way. I do like the idea of PAIP but I want them doing the exercises.
<mason>
Ah!
<mason>
I missed that.
<masinter>
Medley was designed for lisp-only systems
<beach>
mason: Contact the author and the publisher and volunteer.
<masinter>
the hard parts were the file system, scheduler, garbage collector and page-fault handler
<mason>
beach: Oh, I figured it was yours. I don't think I'd have a sufficient understanding to extend the critique.
<mason>
Perpetual noob, decades in.
<beach>
"yours"?
<mason>
Someone owns metamodular. I don't know who.
<mfiano>
There is a bit of miscommunication here. mason was asking you to finish your WIP link
<mfiano>
and you replied to contact the publisher of LoL
<beach>
mason: Yes, Metamodular is mine. But I have no relation to Land of Lisp.
<mason>
beach: The critique, I mean. I'd love to see that finished so I can use the book with a list of caveats and corrections. :P
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<mason>
But yeah, what mfiano said/.
<beach>
mason: Land of Lisp was not published by Metamodular. Luckily! I would die of embarrassment.
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<mason>
Understood.
<beach>
mason: Oh, I see. Sorry.
<mason>
No worries. I could have included more nouns and less ambiguity in what I said.
<beach>
mason: It's a lot of work though. And it is very irritating for me to read, so it is slow.
<mfiano>
I know a lot of good Lisp programmers that started with LoL, but I can't recommend it. It is not a very good book on Common Lisp, and not a very good book on game development. It is a decent book on introducing people to what Lisp can do, if you ignore the errors and have fun.
<mason>
It's not critical. I've also got them all (even the little ones) copies of Armchair Universe, and my plan is to have them implement that stuff in Common Lisp as they're able.
<mfiano>
I would strongly recommend PCL as a first Lisp book, instead.
<mason>
mfiano: We'll have a second hardcopy soon.
<mason>
I just think some the examples won't be exciting for them.
<mfiano>
Less, fun, but more bang for the buck, without the confusion entering the real world after LoL
<mason>
For the ten and under crowd, too dry will be a killer.
<mfiano>
Common Lisp is exciting after you learn it proper. A first impression with LoL will leave a scar for a while trying to unlearn some of its misinformation.
<Nilby>
LoL increased the supply of lisp related cartoons 1000%
<masinter>
a problem with using CL or any lisp as an OS base is thread safety
<mason>
I think I can change the coursework a bit I guess. We'll use PCL for the syntax and structure, and I can pull from other sources for activities and exercises.
<masinter>
i had a "lispusers" hack that turned on preemptive interrupts
<mason>
Alright, I need to hit the sack. G'night all. o/
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<masinter>
mason: good night
<beach>
masinter: What is the issue with thread safety?
<masinter>
two threads modifying the same data structure
<masinter>
javascript is getting read-only data
<beach>
Oh, so not related to Lisp. Just ordinary programming problems.
<Nilby>
masinter: Did Medley have some way of protecting redefintion of critical system functions?
<masinter>
nothing formal.... if you're editing system code you can turn off all "redefinitins" except during reload
<masinter>
set IL:DEFNFLG to IL:PROP
<Nilby>
ahh, thanks, that useful
<masinter>
there's a file SYSEDIT if you're working on low level code that has all the exported definitions of datatypes and macros
<masinter>
the definitions are in a file EXPORTS.ALL
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<Nilby>
There are many other mysteries in there, but i guess that removes one. The SYSEDIT I have was generated 1990 so I guess it's won't be regenerated by accient.
<masinter>
SYSEDIT loads exports.all
<masinter>
exports.all is generated now as part of the loadup
<masinter>
loading up lisp used to take hours
<Nilby>
I see. That has a 2021 time stamp :)
<masinter>
now we're doing new releases through github actions
<jackdaniel>
mfiano: fwiw clim /default/ interface is the command line
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<jackdaniel>
masinter: wouldn't it be possible to implement a separate kernel and userland in /any/ Lisp? that would work for thread safety (at the cost of writing Unix in Lisp ;) and similar issues that result from lack of process separation in a single image
<jackdaniel>
(not that I'm argumenting that it should be implemented that way, just wondering whether issues are lisp-specific, or lisp-programming-style-specific ,)
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<Nilby>
Has there has ever been a Lisp OS with a fully separated kernel and user space? I don't know if Lisp function call and object semantics could be preserved over a unix-like user/kernel separation. Like you'd have to trace through a list and copy everything referenced?
<beach>
It would be a very strange thing.
<Nilby>
I guess one could treat it something like RPC serialization.
<beach>
Objects would lose their identity, which would be very strange.
<Nilby>
I guess CLX is like a example, if you imaging the server in Lisp, it's always passing id numbers, some and has some idea of "atoms" in the server.
<Nilby>
But of course rather painful and inefficient
<beach>
That would be a similar situation, yes.
<beach>
I suspect Genera would be very vulnerable to attacks from the Internet, and separation is probably out of the question in a real system. That's what I had in mind when I imagined CLOSOS.
<jackdaniel>
the fact that x11 has a wire protocol makes it available for all sorts of languages (not only languages with FFI), in this sense wire protocols enable also portability (i.e you may call the system functions without a special ffi to lisp;)
<Nilby>
jackdaniel: That's a good point.
<jackdaniel>
not to mention that for good or bad reasons, kernels that are separated from the userspace, succeeded; so it is not that surprising that someone could come up with an idea to have such design (and there are "ordinary programming problems" that are actually addressed by such separation, so it is not all for naught)
<Nilby>
beach: Does CLOSOS present some protection mechanism that would enough to say run a browser or a multi tenant server?
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<beach>
I hope so. It is meant to use first-class global environments to isolate "users" or "roles", and it is meant to use a combination of ACLs and capabilities in a way similar to what Multics did, except that it wouldn't have a hierarchical object tree.
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<Duuqnd>
What about "untrusted" programs? Would it be possible to create a temporary first-class global environment to run particular programs in?
<beach>
I guess so.
<Duuqnd>
I guess there probably wouldn't be many untrusted programs running on CLOSOS anyway but it could be a nice thing to have
<beach>
Sure.
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<Josh_2>
CLOSOS when?
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<beach>
Don't hold your breath.
<contrapunctus>
beach: not "contribute to make it happen faster"?
<Josh_2>
I dont think I have much to contribute in this domain :shrug:
<beach>
Several people have already helped a lot, and there might still be a few things they can do, but I am currently the only person who understands the bootstrapping technique in detail, and I don't understand it fully myself.
<Josh_2>
If I have a restart called on a condition and that restart signals the same condition is the restart going to be executed again?
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<jackdaniel>
from handler-case?
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<jackdaniel>
if it is (with-restart (handler-case … (… (invoke-restart …))) then yes
<jackdaniel>
because you know, you restart the execution
<Josh_2>
Okay thanks :thumbsup:
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<beach>
contrapunctus: Such a thing would need applications, and anybody can start writing those, but I can't even seem to get anyone to take on a calendar program. :(
<contrapunctus>
I want have many CLIM applications to write (and I hope I can port them to CLOSOS someday), but not getting the time right now :\
<beach>
Yeah, I know what you mean about lacking time.
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<contrapunctus>
I'm not even some kind of CL veteran whose work people would crowdfund.
<beach>
For applications, I don't know about crowdfunding, but I have considered such a thing for SICL. I concluded that money is not the problem, but people who are both available and qualified.
<jackdaniel>
I don't see why you would need to port these to closos if you write them in CLIM - I assume that the target goal is a compliant common lisp implementation (among other things)
<jackdaniel>
so CLIM apps should work from get go on SICL (hence - it is not a blocker)
<jackdaniel>
s/SICL/CLOSOS/
<beach>
jackdaniel: I think that's right. Perhaps applications that use files would have to be modified, but the GUI should work.
<jackdaniel>
if applications use interfaces available in the standard, then they should work too
<contrapunctus>
That's what I mean - making use of the object store and capabilities.
<beach>
Gnuxie: Interesting. Starting with people who are both available and qualified seems to be the right thing.
<contrapunctus>
Gnuxie: daaamn. :'(
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<Gnuxie>
contrapunctus: oops, i misread as "I'm not even sure some kind of CL veteran (would get crowd funded)"
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<beach>
I think SICL could easily attract more money than that. That's pretty low, especially for the number of supporters.
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<contrapunctus>
Gnuxie: is that for the entire SBCL project, or just one developer?
<Gnuxie>
just one developer
<Nilby>
usually as qualification grows, availability shrinks, and if you factor in interest, and low pay, it gets close to the zero we see
<beach>
Gnuxie: Do you know more about this? Like, is stassats doing something different from the rest of the maintenance team? Is there even a "rest of the maintenance team"?
<beach>
Nilby: Sounds right.
<jackdaniel>
I think that the problem with donations sbcl have is that it is not obvious to whom they should be distributed; I'm sure Krystof will know more about that
<jackdaniel>
re other developers - more people maintain sbcl looking at the repository history
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<beach>
I see.
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<beach>
It looks to me like stassats is trying to do something more radical than maintenance.
<Nilby>
from reading the sbcl mailing lists it seems like stas is great at fixing bugs everyone else creates
<beach>
Heh.
<beach>
Nilby: I have also considered becoming the mentor of a relative newbie, in return from contributions later on. That too has largely failed.
<beach>
s/from/for/
<Nilby>
but it seems like some rare truly motivated people will do a lot of work for little reward, perhaps aside from having the thing themselves
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<contrapunctus>
If I were to get even $400 a month I'd be happy to work full time on FOSS Lisp projects.
<beach>
If you mean that, you have a deal.
<beach>
I am sure I can gather up that much for work on SICL and/or on something related.
<beach>
contrapunctus: Where do you live that will let you survive on that little?
<contrapunctus>
The fine print being that I'm anything but 'qualified'. I'm passionate about Common Lisp, malleable systems, and CLOSOS, but I don't even have a CS degree.
<contrapunctus>
beach: Delhi, India.
<beach>
I see. And I see.
<beach>
I don't see a CS degree as something absolutely necessary. Not much in such a degree would necessarily help here, and one doesn't need formal training to learn.
<rotateq>
contrapunctus: You can build up much serious knowledge, practice and understanding by yourself, a degree just by itself doesn't say so much in the general case.
<beach>
contrapunctus: Do you currently have a job doing software development?
<rotateq>
"If you find that you're spending almost all your time on theory, start turning some attention to practical things; it will improve your theories. If you find that you're spending almost all your time on practice, start turning some attention to theoretical things; it will improve your practice."
<contrapunctus>
beach: no, I haven't worked on software professionally yet.
<beach>
I see.
<beach>
contrapunctus: So what are your qualifications currently?
<beach>
I'll have a look. Seriously, if you were to create something like stassats' Patreon thing, and with some serious suggestions on what to work on, I could make sure you have at least $400 per month.
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<trev>
sounds like quite the opportunity for someone who has no degree or experience
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<contrapunctus>
beach: sounds good. I'm already on Liberapay https://liberapay.com/contrapunctus and I'll put something together about the CLIM applications I want to work on.
<beach>
Great!
<jackdaniel>
since you are part of the openstreetmap community, perhaps you could write a simple client for clim? ,)
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<contrapunctus>
jackdaniel: renderer, or editor? :o
<contrapunctus>
s/in the works/in the prototype stage/
<jackdaniel>
contrapunctus: renderer
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<Krystof>
I think patreon / crowdfunding works for Stas because he is otherwise a freelance worker, so it's just another income stream from his freelance work. By contrast, donations to Doug would be superfluous, as he is already paid to work on SBCL by his employer. Combining crowdfunding with other funded freelance work is a good model for donations.
<Krystof>
SBCL also has an "account" at the Common Lisp Foundation; we have a low-4-figure balance I think, and haven't worked out how to spend it meaningfully in ~10 years (apart from helping some people get to SBCL20, I think)
<jackdaniel>
thanks
<Krystof>
(once the stable flow of donations to a *project* matches a full-time salary expectation of an established developer, I think things change somewhat in terms of how to manage it. We haven't had to confront that "problem")
<beach>
Krystof: Is what stassats is doing something different from ordinary SBCL maintenance? It looks to me like he is planning a rewrite. No?
<beach>
Krystof: Is the low-4-figure balance in Bitcoin or Turkish Lira, or something else?
<Krystof>
beach: I don't think it is different from ordinary SBCL maintenance
<beach>
Ah, OK. His Patreon page suggested something else. Thanks.
<Krystof>
low-4-figure $/€/£
<Krystof>
(or CHF)
<beach>
OK.
<beach>
"Stas Boukarev is creating a better SBCL"
<Krystof>
... with each commit
<beach>
Got it.
<Krystof>
I think "is creating" is patreon-generic text
<beach>
I see. Makes sense.
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<mason>
And then, one sleep later...
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<Guest74>
We should have a lisp bounty board. ...with something besides mcclim stuff on it. it'd be nice to not have coding interrupted by computer breakdowns or homelessness.
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<mason>
Guest74: What, now you want to solve capitalism too? Let's stick with problems we have a hope of resolving.
<Guest74>
I'd like to think my homelessness has a hope of being resolved.
<mason>
But the general concept doesn't without systemic change.
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<jackdaniel>
testing fast gf dispatch on ecl makes my computer go wrrr when it recompiles it on each new invocation ,)
<edgar-rft>
maybe it has something to do with your girlfriends...
<White_Flame>
the remake of ff8 can speed up your guardian forces
<White_Flame>
*remaster
<ck_>
how can there even be a second "final" fantasy
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<Guest74>
MULTIPOINT or MULTI-POINT?
<Guest74>
nevermind, I see it's camelcase
<rotateq>
or with multiple- ?
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