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<TRS-80>
GOOD EVENING FELLOW WIZARDS
* TRS-80
just got multi room synchronized audio working
<TRS-80>
wanted that for some years now
<nekomancer[m]>
TRS-80: congratulations!
<TRS-80>
nekomancer[m]: Cheers! :)
<TRS-80>
How are things on your side of the world?
<nekomancer[m]>
booring. and expensive.
<TRS-80>
Aha! Expensive? It's getting really bad here!
<nekomancer[m]>
for a while bill for heating for december was about 150% of november.
<TRS-80>
Been looking for land / house here, it's out of reach for most people, insane.
<TRS-80>
Unless you want to be on hamster wheel the rest of your life, and I don't.
<nekomancer[m]>
as everywhere. the world is changed after 1980x
<nekomancer[m]>
no future.
<TRS-80>
You are a real ray of sunshine, you know that? :D
<nekomancer[m]>
no.
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<TRS-80>
that really finally put the pieces together for me, from a high level, even after I had been reading about it for like 2 years
<lanefu>
Okay so if I can figure out how to run mopidy as a headless service on my nomad cluster and use my obsidian32 as clients we're on to something
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<TRS-80>
obsidian is ESP32?
<TRS-80>
This is beyond me, even though @Tonymac32 mention it every time this subject come up.
<TRS-80>
lanefu: What are these cute little things? If Zeos doesn't recommend it, it's off my radar. :D
<TRS-80>
expensive
* TRS-80
looks closer
<TRS-80>
they look nice though\
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> hmm?
<lanefu>
Amps that I replaced all my 90s/2000s era reciecer amps with
<TRS-80>
@Tonymac32: so, I was not wrong in my general thrust?
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> nope, not wrong
<lanefu>
Plenty of power sounds better than what they replaced
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> I need to recondition my 90's Pioneer
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> it has no subwoofer channel so requires real speakers
<TRS-80>
lanefu: I am a fan of the small stuff, too. But I gave like $24 for similar looking desktop amp, $30-40 for bookshelf speakers, shipped, etc...
<lanefu>
Yeah I drive a set of minimus 7 bookshelves in my office
<lanefu>
Then ice got some some big 70s or 80s speakers in garage with a 2x50W
<TRS-80>
So, there is this guy on Reddit, he is a total weeb, but he knows his audio. Came across him many years ago. Bookmarked. Years later, came time to buy some things, and so far, his recommendations have not let me down.
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> I have polk audio R50's for the living room with a 10" subwoofer
<TRS-80>
Just last week re-visited. Bought some <$30 Monoprice cans. And they are great. :)
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> I built myself a set of 80's style big'uns for the pioneer
<lanefu>
Nice
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> wound my own crossover inductors too
<lanefu>
I have 90s bookshelves on my 90s pioneer
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> because, nerd
<lanefu>
That's pretty badass
<TRS-80>
These guys actually rented a room at some fancy audiophile show a few years ago, set up all there cheap crap, and opened it to the public. These audiphile fags could not believe how good the stuff sounded, for how cheap it was. Freaking awesome. LOL
<lanefu>
Actually that's what my obsidian32 is on
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> I have some second-hand Bose bookshelves (201 series 2)
<TRS-80>
@Tonymac32 I may need to consult on building a switch box for my growing collection of input/output around desktop and headphones, speakers, etc...
* TRS-80
read a book about building speakers back in like high school (but that's as far as it went)
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> @trs80 I also put a reasonable audio filter on the line out on the Obsidian
<TRS-80>
If you can compile snapclient, I will buy some
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> but I forgot to account for the fact it outputs up to 3.3V when line is 2
<TRS-80>
maybe that is what you were linking earlier
<TRS-80>
it occurs to me now
<TRS-80>
it all makes sense
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> needs divider
<lanefu>
Ford vs Chevy
<lanefu>
Done
<TRS-80>
no
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> Bad Lanefu
<lanefu>
ROFL
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<TRS-80>
gn frens
<TRS-80>
actually I go back to solo hacking until sleep
<TRS-80>
cannot concentrate with IRC on
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<TRS-80>
release meeting in 6 hours
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<Armbian-Discord>
<ercatli> which channel is this meeting in?
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<Heisath>
Who's already here?
<lanefu>
Me sorta
<lanefu>
All I gotta do is get out of bed
<Heisath>
Good morning.
<rpardini>
I'm here too. good morning
<IgorPec>
good morning
<adeepv>
hi. I'm having an afternoon nap, but I'm here)
<Armbian-Discord>
<Zaza> good mornign too
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<Heisath>
If I am not mistaken we should probably start now :D
<ArmbianHelper>
Meeting started Sat Jan 29 13:02:06 2022 UTC. The chair is IgorPec. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
<Heisath>
#topic Welcome and check attendance
<IgorPec>
checked
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<Heisath>
Say hi, state which board / family you represent or/which task/role youre taking on.
<Heisath>
Also if any new ppl are here, maybe add then you're new.
<lanefu>
<-- infrastructure/evangelism/lifecoach
<adeepv>
JetHome boards (JetHub D1/H1/etc) + some amlogic magic.
<Heisath>
<-- mvebu and release planner
<rpardini>
<-- somewhat-all meson64 and ODROID N2 / HC4 for these meeting purposes. I'm new to meetings.
<Zaza>
rock3a and getting into automation engineer role
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<IgorPec>
<-- no specific boards, feeling the gab, infrastructure
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<adeepv>
i'm new to meetings too)
<jock>
hello!
<Werner>
Hi. Semi-AFK due to family duties. doing forum/discord/irc moderation
<Heisath>
ok for the new ppl. we basically go over the board and feature status, check which big things will be in release and choose targets for next release cycle.
<Heisath>
Ok biggest step I think was supported/WIP/CSC changes. I think that is done?
<IgorPec>
not completly, i would say its still wip
<Heisath>
I saw support status between website and git is now synced?
<IgorPec>
relations between download - build framework and new maintainers needs to be synched and doublechedk and update when changes are needed
<IgorPec>
in the mean time some new folks showed up, so we are behind i would say
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<rpardini>
ok but download pages already show wips and generally much better. and there's new images since jan too. could you clarify?
<lanefu>
#action WIP Changes - new maintainers needs to be synched and doublechedk and update when changes are needed; reconcile recent new maintainers
<IgorPec>
yes, i would open a task on "systematical check on statuses"
<Heisath>
Also we need to add maintainer name to board config. This is something maintainers should IMHO PR by themselves for their board.
<lanefu>
yeah we've been a little soft on that, def should have that sorted before release
<IgorPec>
which is closed, to keep some internal stuff and that would be best to be there ( to get rid of googledocs)
<Heisath>
Then we should make a post in announcements, and call out maintainers to add themselves via PR.
<lanefu>
#action assure maintainer is in board config prior to release. Prefered that new maintainers perform this task themselves via PR
<IgorPec>
so this is just some base - each new maintaner should be listed there,
* rpardini
plug: armbian-next would massively facilitate this
<Heisath>
I would like to have them list themselves. To test commitment. (as lanefu #actioned).
<IgorPec>
also one meeting on the topic of board rules should be conducted. I am not sure they are clear to everyone
<IgorPec>
also perhaps some ideas for improvements can arrise
<lanefu>
#action coordinate maintainer meeting to discuss mainatinership and process. mandatory for new maintaienrs
<Heisath>
Any other overall project things to discuss?
<TRS-80>
o/
<Heisath>
hi trash
<adeepv>
IgorPec will the board maintainers have access to the internal repository?
<IgorPec>
adeepv: yes
* TRS-80
was trying to raise his hand :)
<IgorPec>
TRS-80 go
<Heisath>
its an older model, but it checks out.
<TRS-80>
I see a lot of applicants for e.g., Board Maintainer on the forums, should I approve them? Is there some process? Secret vote, discussion I am not aware of?
<TRS-80>
:D
<IgorPec>
i am slowly talking with them
<IgorPec>
i can forward you which are yet to be contacted
<IgorPec>
all that are not approved yet - go
<TRS-80>
Yes, I did not know if it was just a case of you being busy or what. I can make an effort to idle in IRC more, esp. in -onboarding channel if that helps.
<Heisath>
We dont need a maintainer vote. If they can fulfill the requirements (board avail, etc). Then they can maintain. If they horribly break something we can still kick them
<TRS-80>
That's sort of what I was thinking, we could use the help.
<TRS-80>
Just wanted to check.
<IgorPec>
yes. its just some general welcoming and helping them around
<TRS-80>
That I can do. :)
<lanefu>
yes. don't need to vote.... the guidance is losing maintainership role if they donpt participate
<TRS-80>
Yeah I figured, just wanted to make sure as I've been away a while. Did not know if there was policy.
<IgorPec>
then there is AR-246 which needs to be verified, i suspect its no more
<ArmbianHelper>
AR-246 [Bug] "SPI overlay seems to be broken" reported by Igor Pecovnik at 2020-05-16. Status: To Do
<lanefu>
if we have a solution... just make a tech debt jira story for future release to un-dirty it
<lanefu>
as a contigency
<IgorPec>
if we will wait long enough, solution will emerge upstream. this is how i understand that problem
<IgorPec>
this is all known for allwinner
<IgorPec>
except general
<IgorPec>
bumping u-boot and kernel
<IgorPec>
AR-1074
<ArmbianHelper>
AR-1074 [Story] "Switch all CURRENT to 5.15.y and EDGE to 5.16.y" reported by Igor Pecovnik at 2022-01-29. Status: To Do
<Heisath>
Yeah lets to that later.
<Heisath>
#topic Amlogic
<adeepv>
i think we need update kernels
<adeepv>
to 5.15 - stable, 5.16 - edge
<IgorPec>
i'll only add AR-1071
<ArmbianHelper>
AR-1071 [Bug] "Odroid N2 upgrade path is partially broken" reported by Igor Pecovnik at 2022-01-29. Status: To Do
<Armbian-Discord>
<fourheads> Are we keeping 5.4 kernels?
<Heisath>
Can we please move general kernel discussion after the board/family topics.
<rpardini>
ok so I've a long story, bear with me?
<Heisath>
Is it on Amlogic?
<IgorPec>
fourheads: for amlogic or in general?
<rpardini>
yes
<rpardini>
In 26/September/2021, PR #3154 was merged into master. That stabilizes meson64-current 5.10.y quite a bit and somewhat makes ODROID usable. It also clears a lot of flak other meson64's were getting due to HK's patches. Also #3155 bumped meson64 to u-boot 2021.07 to match. (I guess there were JIRA about those, but can't find them. Sorry)
<Heisath>
shoot
* TRS-80
sips his coffee
<Armbian-Discord>
<fourheads> In general
<adeepv>
rpardini beer? yes)
<rpardini>
We didn't have any release since then, I think, and until last week we had images from August/2021 on official download pages. There's now new images since last week, but I dunno which branch they were built from.
<IgorPec>
fourheads: in general we will discuss after hw specific
<rpardini>
Unfortunately, in that move, edge kernel (5.15.y?) was left behind, full of weird patches and very unstable atleast for ODROIDs, and very possibly also for the other meson64s due to those infamous reboot hacks and other shit from HK; the comments in those PRs show the principle behind the clean up, but gotta find time and cycle my N2+ out of prod again, so not in 22.02 timeframe.
<rpardini>
So for 22.02 I'd really like to get that released if it wasn't yet, but keeping 5.10.y as current. Edge is useless right on those ODROIDs.
<IgorPec>
rpardini: those images were recreated from repository
<rpardini>
For 22.05 I promise to rework meson64 edge together with other meson64 maintainers and get it in good/better order, but for now armbian-next has priority.
<Armbian-Discord>
<fourheads> I have an N2+, maybe I can help
<IgorPec>
fourheads: you can pick up that bug perhaps?
<adeepv>
rpardini I saw several patches about odroid in the kernel mailing list.don't they solve these problems?
<Heisath>
We dont need to work hard on Edge, it is not meant to be stable.
<rpardini>
IgorPec: yes, but from which branch?
<Armbian-Discord>
<fourheads> Sure, I can pick it up
<rpardini>
adeepv: probably. that's why theres a big rework needed.
<IgorPec>
rpardini: packages were not built but used those from apt repo
<IgorPec>
this way i have updated a few images last week
<rpardini>
ok, so imgs are new but old packages, so no, those PRs still havent seen light of day
<rpardini>
so 22.02 would be the first to include them, *if we keep current to 5.10.y*
<adeepv>
rpardini I also have an odroid-c4 if anything
<rpardini>
if we bump current to 5.15.y, that work will disappear unreleased
<IgorPec>
why? we are moving 5.10.y to legacy?
<rpardini>
no, I'm just making the point that 5.10.y should be kept as current.
<adeepv>
rpardini In principle, I agree. the kernel can be postponed to 22.05
<IgorPec>
aha, well. we have the flexibility to do that
<IgorPec>
its your call. other families will have its own logic
<rpardini>
there's a lot of meson64 boards that can run well with edge, a bit by luck
<rpardini>
so I don't wanna impose.
<lanefu>
IMHO legacy should always be considerd vendor/bsp kernel.... in general I hope that one day we can have stable adn old-stable LTS kernels... 5.10.y is a prime example
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> Agreed
<IgorPec>
is there any point in having amlogic legacy?
<rpardini>
exactly. for 22.05 we could remove vendor-legacy, and move 5.10.y to legacy, after reworking edge 5.16.y
<Heisath>
+
<rpardini>
I'm 99% ready to remove legacy. it's there for reference only, and the UHS fiasco
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> In my opinion no, I never used it for GX(L), other than the pre-existing C2 stuff when I picked it up
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> So if legacy went away I don't care in the least
<IgorPec>
yeah. i am asking speficic for amlogic. i agree that in some cases vendor kernel is needed
<IgorPec>
so conclusing is to keep current on 5.10.y for 22.02
<IgorPec>
?
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<Heisath>
Aaaand he had enough :D
<Armbian-Discord>
<rpardini> ok. so combo proposal is for 22.02 keep current as 5.10.y, edge as whatever; for 22.05 remove vendor legacy and move 5.10.y to legacy, and promote 5.15.y/5.16.y to current after rework
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<IgorPec>
ok, nobody is agains i guess we can file it
<rpardini>
IRC bounced me, sorry.
<rpardini>
ok. so combo proposal is for 22.02 keep current as 5.10.y, edge as whatever; for 22.05 remove vendor legacy and move 5.10.y to legacy, and promote 5.15.y/5.16.y to current after rework.
<Heisath>
#action Amlogic for 22.02 keep current as 5.10.y, edge as whatever; for 22.05 remove vendor legacy and move 5.10.y to legacy, and promote 5.15.y/5.16.y to current after rework.
<IgorPec>
ar-1061 is also to check
<IgorPec>
AR-1061
<ArmbianHelper>
AR-1061 [Bug] "udev HDMI rules are causing flickering" reported by Igor Pecovnik at 2022-01-23. Status: To Do
<IgorPec>
this is some legacy hack from i don't know when
<Armbian-Discord>
<fourheads> Which Odroid Boards?
<Armbian-Discord>
<fourheads> All of them?
<IgorPec>
yes
<rpardini>
ok, but on 5.15.y and thus for 22.05 timeframe...?
<adeepv>
rpaedini ok. not very good for our devices, but quite acceptable. i'll have to revisit the patches for JetHub 5.10 again
<adeepv>
*review )
<IgorPec>
if edge stays on 5.15.y it should be safe enough
<rpardini>
adeepv: I agree it's inconvenient, and appreciate the teamwork
<juri_>
hio. :)
<juri_>
yeah, i'm taking on all allwinner boards i can find with hardware SATA support. i'll probably take on a few without sata, but for now..
<rpardini>
finally #help if anyone would like to undertake that rework, I'd be glad to show around, since I'm mostly doing build system work.
<juri_>
my apologies for being late to the meeting. i didn't know we had meetings. :)
<Heisath>
Yeah sorry I don't know all the ppls names to ping them.
<IgorPec>
fyi uboot is upped for amlogic to latest ...
<rpardini>
IgorPec: exactly and looks great and might even solve some issues to facilitate rework.
<IgorPec>
heisath: ok, here we only have clearfogs . so you tell us ;)
<rpardini>
_kernel_ rework mostly now, uboot is zeroed in.
<Heisath>
Nothing big new or problematic here. No maintainer for espressobin. Helios4 and Clearfog are running good. I will test Lk5.15 and Lk5.16
<Armbian-Discord>
<fourheads> Somehow, I thought it was 8:30am (wishful thinking) - juri you are not alone.
<IgorPec>
upgrade current to 5.15.y would be nice if not too complicated
<adeepv>
uboot has only bug with emmc on axg/sm1 chipset - 0001-HACK-mmc-meson-gx-limit-to-24MHz.patch fixes it
<Heisath>
If we have little participants from east (china, australia etc.) we might move the meeting time to better suit usa and europe folks
<juri_>
BTW, i am more than half blocked, because of AR-1054. that's going to eat at least a week of hacker time for me.. which may take me a month to find.
<ArmbianHelper>
AR-1054 [Epic] "eliminate the need to have root access to build the images." reported by Julia Longtin at 2022-01-15. Status: To Do
<Armbian-Discord>
<fourheads> Many times I have almost bought an espressobin - if it’s important, I can buy one and help out.
<Armbian-Discord>
<fourheads> But it seems to be less popularity
<Heisath>
It is not popular and a pain in the butt.
<IgorPec>
juri_: we are getting to general section afterwardsd
<Heisath>
Maybe you could get one and try it. Pali is doing lots of mainline work for it.
<lanefu>
foruheads i have extra v5 i can send you
<IgorPec>
espressobin is not worth the trouble i think
<Heisath>
Pali has done a lot. I have been following the mainline mailing lists.
<lanefu>
yeah i think it might be usable _finally_
<IgorPec>
yeah, we could cerainly probive something better now
<IgorPec>
i have one v4 (i think) still in the CI, but currently offline
<Heisath>
Also he is somewhat responsive on the forum (unless Igor is involved)
<lanefu>
yeah but he refruses to do PR's
<lanefu>
because his hatred is that strong
<lanefu>
historically i've ignored his stuff becuase of that
<Heisath>
Yeah he's a mainline fellow, which is good somewhat.
<lanefu>
fair
<lanefu>
yeah i mean if someone wants to run with it i'm all for it
<Heisath>
He's also trying to get lots of clearfog / helios4 patches into mvebu.
<Armbian-Discord>
<fourheads> When we say “mainline”, it seems we mean mainline kernel, right?
<TRS-80>
@fourheads yes
<Heisath>
5.15 is fine for mvebu, I'll try to test 5.16 and then upgrade.
<rpardini>
`git am` / `git format-patch` folks generally hate Github PRs, except for some very patient souls
<Heisath>
#topic Rockchip
<lanefu>
mainline == mainline or derived closely mainline, and not from a vendor kernel (there's some nuances that can be explained later)
<IgorPec>
status of u-boot on rockchip?
<Armbian-Discord>
<fourheads> Sure
<Armbian-Discord>
<fourheads> My RockPro64 just departed mainland China. Won’t have it in time to help with this release, maybe next one.
<jock>
u-boot v2021.07 is fine for 32 bit (both rk322x and rockchip families), but rk3288 tinkerboard has been left behind. Would like to move to 2022.01 soon for 32 bit, but can't test because have no tinkerboard
<TRS-80>
lanefu: lol, I was 'thinking about it' and then realized I am not sure I have time. Maybe I can start in secondary role, I dunno.
<IgorPec>
for tinkerboard we would like to keep usb flashing
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> Jock this is because of the ums boot mode
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> I am ok leaving that feature behind
<Armbian-Discord>
<ercatli> Hmm, is there a maintainer for the orpi pc?
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> But Igor is not, which is fine 😉
<TRS-80>
FWIW, tilim actually PM me on forums offering to send hardware.
<TRS-80>
@fourheads thanks, cheers
<TRS-80>
on PINE64 forums I mean
<lanefu>
ercatli see spreadsheet
<Armbian-Discord>
<ercatli> let's see
<lanefu>
ercatli--- we're on rockchip right now.. so follow-up after meeting
<Armbian-Discord>
<ercatli> hmm, I see, there is a maintainer
<jock>
Tonymac32: no problems with that, I guess rk3288 tinkerboard may require some u-boot config rework because of its older version if you want to upgrade
<Armbian-Discord>
<fourheads> Just be aware. I am still waiting for the Rockpro64 to arrive. 🙂
<IgorPec>
rockchip 3399 - usb type-c ?
<IgorPec>
for newer models - how is the status? anyone familiar
<Armbian-Discord>
<fourheads> Remind me when we get to OrangePI
<Armbian-Discord>
<fourheads> I just got a 3 LTS
<Armbian-Discord>
<fourheads> Which we don’t even have listed.
<jock>
IgorPec: unfortunately I'm not, rockchip64/356x is out of my range
<lanefu>
fourheads: feel free to add
<IgorPec>
here balbes and catallini report would be needed. i also don't know much
<lanefu>
is Zaza here?
<Zaza>
for rock3 rk 3568 is still wip, desktop mainline kernel is not working, usb3 not working...just basic stuff.
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> On the boards I've worked on the type-c has full USB and DP alt mode working
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> Rk3399
<lanefu>
#info zaza: for rock3 rk 3568 is still wip, desktop mainline kernel is not working, usb3 not working...just basic stuff.
<lanefu>
man i've never gotten that to work
<IgorPec>
ok. any outstanding task needed for 3399?
<lanefu>
but i havent tried hard
<Zaza>
using with desktop was only possible with legacy 4.19
<lanefu>
the contencious talking about about some ethernet bugs on rock4b? cited in forum?
<lanefu>
s/talking/talking point/
<ArmbianHelper>
lanefu meant to say: the contencious talking point about about some ethernet bugs on rock4b? cited in forum?
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> Unfamiliar
<lanefu>
i rebubbled that to radxa, but's chinese new year
<Zaza>
and somehow manjaro and slack did the desktop work, but was laggy a lot
<IgorPec>
fyi olimex has some new RK3328 boards in case someone has a desire
* lanefu
interested if they have 2 real nics
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> +
<IgorPec>
i'll add that to forum once i got info
<IgorPec>
moving on?
<Heisath>
#topic board other
<IgorPec>
i asuume here is odroid xu4
<Zaza>
resuming for rock3a : is not so good for this february release
<rpardini>
well, all the addings of uefi-x86 and uefi-arm64 and rpi4b from my side. those are wip.
<IgorPec>
and those as well. should we go out with those in 22.02?
<IgorPec>
AR-1048
<ArmbianHelper>
AR-1048 [Bug] "Rpi kernel image is not updated on upgrade" reported by Igor Pecovnik at 2022-01-13. Status: To Do
* adeepv
searching board with 3+ nics)
<lanefu>
#action rock3a remains WIP for v20.02
<rpardini>
do we have any maintainer smoke signals? I've seen you Igor touch them, but not much else. might be I'm not up-to-date
<Armbian-Discord>
<ercatli> UEFI x86? Hmm, what about an MBR image?
<rpardini>
yep, I've not tested any upgrades at all.
<IgorPec>
rpi seems in good shape, x86 i didn't test much, arm64 don't have hw
<rpardini>
MBR is included for uefi-x86 via legacy i386 grub. system itself is 64-bit only though
<rpardini>
I can't speak for the upgradeability of any of them, since that's not a scenario I encounter.
<IgorPec>
here - for arm64 - we should probably reach out for some parners
<rpardini>
indeed. uefi-arm64 has been tested by locals here and I've reached out to SolidRun without success except for a pat in the back.
<IgorPec>
upgrading can be tested now, since kernels are available in repository
<lanefu>
Tony an I have Phytium D2000's coming our way
<lanefu>
so..... will get plenty of testing then
<IgorPec>
when is that planned?
<rpardini>
yeah, Phytium should be the super smooth, and testing upgrades will be fun
<IgorPec>
i assume not for this release?
<lanefu>
check's in hte mail
<lanefu>
not this release
<lanefu>
devices ariving feb-march
<IgorPec>
i would push rpi for this release, x86 is not that much relevant, arm64 we need hw
<rpardini>
yeah. agree
<lanefu>
i have a rpi4 now btw
<rpardini>
rpi4b should be noted as experimental
<rpardini>
like: might-not-upgrade
<IgorPec>
upgrade has to be fixed
<Armbian-Discord>
<ercatli> I have an RPI 4 right now, too...
<lanefu>
"upgrades" needs to be a whole discussion for later in meeting IMHO
<IgorPec>
its just that its not updating image on boot partition
<lanefu>
ercaatli wanna bea mainter
<rpardini>
yeah. I'd say if someone (not me and not Igor) steps up to fix upgrades then ok
<Armbian-Discord>
<ercatli> but all of my zeros have ended up in the trash, actually, so weird...
<IgorPec>
AR-1048 seeking for help
<ArmbianHelper>
AR-1048 [Bug] "Rpi kernel image is not updated on upgrade" reported by Igor Pecovnik at 2022-01-13. Status: To Do
<rpardini>
that said I can point to a few spots I know that need addressing for upgradeability
<IgorPec>
anyone has a desire to look into this? He will get support from me and rpardini
<TRS-80>
Where is Cornelius, doesn't he like maintain his own RPi repo or something?
<IgorPec>
yes, he is around from time to time
<lanefu>
he prefers to yell from the sidelines
<TRS-80>
Or am I thinking of someone else(?).
<TRS-80>
lanefu: I have been working on him, long term campaign. ;)
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<IgorPec>
ok, lets try to fill that later.
<joekhoobyar>
yay
<rpardini>
ahn also the sound thing, sorry
<rpardini>
rpi4b vs userland audio
<TRS-80>
joekhoobyar: o/
<joekhoobyar>
wow, this IRC client makes me feel like I'm in college again. It's 1995 all of a sudden
<rpardini>
not a blocker for release, but again, I don't wanna get press saying "nice but no sound" as the best thing said
<Heisath>
Any other different board things? Otherwise move to buildsystem.
<IgorPec>
#topic buildsystem enhancements
ArmbianHelper changed the topic of #armbian to: buildsystem enhancements
<joekhoobyar>
ok, I'll continue here. Would it help if I change my name to "fourheads" ?
<lanefu>
just be yourself whatever head that is
<rpardini>
joekhoobyar: not but would help if you stuck to agenda I guess
<Heisath>
Dont care. Btw. did my #topics get ignored?
<Heisath>
I did not see a confirmation by the bot.
<IgorPec>
for build system - rpardini
<lanefu>
Heisath: bot caught it
<Heisath>
ok good :D
<lanefu>
i think it's silent if i remember
<rpardini>
ok so build system is suffering massive refactor
<Heisath>
Yeah for igor it was not
<rpardini>
but it's on separate branch, and not even close to ready for 22.02
<lanefu>
Heisath: yeah see channel topic.. it changed
<joekhoobyar>
I wouldn't mind helping on the refactor, rpardini - but I don't know what I don't know
<IgorPec>
smaller changes were - patching moved under series
<lanefu>
#help
<joekhoobyar>
and it might not be worth readiing somebody else in
<IgorPec>
so its little bit better in sunxi, where we have a lot of them
<joekhoobyar>
up to you
* TRS-80
likes to follow PRs on GitHub, some times he even learns something
<IgorPec>
the plen for build system is that we merge rpardini changes then detach hardware layer into separate repo
<IgorPec>
after release
<rpardini>
ok, so armbian-next branch will be PR'ed again after 22.02 release if all goes well
<lanefu>
#action armbian-next transition part of roadmap imemdiately after release
<rpardini>
oh yes, _extensions_, that's already in for 22.02
<joekhoobyar>
Need to learn the build system. I am a baby
<IgorPec>
this information should be added to this release since it was never published
<Heisath>
Yeah
<IgorPec>
and _juri wants that we get rid of su
<rpardini>
I will invite all of you to play on armbian-next after finishing some things and rebasing master, which is a big work
<IgorPec>
since we are all here - do we have some sane way?
<Heisath>
maybe add Jira with extension info, this way we get it to changelog automatically
<IgorPec>
there was no jira on extension topi AFAIK
<Heisath>
exactly. Thats why I meant, create one now.
<rpardini>
uh, it was AR-1009 I think
<ArmbianHelper>
AR-1009 [Story] "Armbian Framework extensions and UEFI support" reported by Igor Pecovnik at 2021-11-28. Status: In Progress
<IgorPec>
ok, moving this in, cool
<rpardini>
promise that _after_ armbian-next I will strictly stick to 1 thing per PR/AR
<rpardini>
:-P
<Heisath>
This is another task for really motivated people. Check through all the jira issues and make sure they are assigend to something, so they dont get lost.
* TRS-80
will believe it when he sees it :p
<IgorPec>
heisath: TRS-80 ?:)
<TRS-80>
I was joking with rpardini
<TRS-80>
oh you are volunteering me
<IgorPec>
yes ;)
<rpardini>
heheh, you're right and it's funny :-D
<Heisath>
It is about 244 items which are Todo or Backlogged.
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<TRS-80>
yes this is suitable to my autism, perfect job for me
<juri_>
Heisath: file a longer version of that as a ticket, and i'll try to run with it. Jira is something i do, all day, almost every day.
<IgorPec>
this we should do together, but someone (trs) has to push on us
<TRS-80>
however I still was never able to auth to Jira, I will give it another try later today after meeting
<Heisath>
Just need to check they are listed under some future release so we can find them and backlog them as neccessary.
<Zaza47>
internet bugs somehow, now I showed as zaza47
<juri_>
(i wear product owner / tech lead / scrum manager titles at $dayjob)
<Heisath>
#action Cycle Jira issues which are not attached to a version.
Zaza has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<TRS-80>
juri_: You are welcome to it, esp as I still have yet to be able to log in to Jira.
<TRS-80>
Bt I will still try, anyway.
<TRS-80>
But
<rpardini>
ok that's all from me I think. extensions in 22.02, armbian-next in 22.05 with previews before
<IgorPec>
for build script - this is all. i guess we can movbe to CI?
<Heisath>
yeah
<Heisath>
#topic CI / Infrastructure
<lanefu>
juri_ yeah flex as hard as you want
<Heisath>
Yeah my #topic does not work :D
<lanefu>
#cat hearding
<IgorPec>
#topic CI
ArmbianHelper changed the topic of #armbian to: CI
<rpardini>
Ahn!
<rpardini>
see, it's the slash.
<lanefu>
Heisath: ahh yeah that but has like a whitelist... for peple
<lanefu>
s/but/bot
<ArmbianHelper>
lanefu meant to say: Heisath: ahh yeah that bot has like a whitelist... for peple
<lanefu>
#action add useres to meetint bot
<lanefu>
works case we can just grep ^# from irc logs :)
<IgorPec>
this is smoke test which runs update + upgrade + reboot + optional power cycle on real hardwaree
<rpardini>
joekhoobyar: we go self-hosted runner way. nektos/act is for the "opposite" (local testing)
<joekhoobyar>
adeepv: I don't mind limitations, if it can 10x my development
<joekhoobyar>
Oh, I know what nektos/act is for, rpardini. :)
<rpardini>
great, now go fix that sudo needed there.
<IgorPec>
AR-1072
<ArmbianHelper>
AR-1072 [Story] "Visualise tests support rate" reported by Igor Pecovnik at 2022-01-29. Status: To Do
<IgorPec>
this is desired next step
<Heisath>
Ok but now release needed?
<Heisath>
*not
<IgorPec>
no, not for release
<IgorPec>
it would be nice to have, but
<Heisath>
Ok any other infra tasks? Otherwise go to "#topic general" and talk kernel upgrades.
<Zaza47>
IgorPec, yeah I can try test it. I currently using vm's to get used to ansible playbooks and control some debian mnimal img...and doing docker stuffs, lanefu is helping me with that
<IgorPec>
Zaza47: you have jira access?
<Zaza47>
with orointation
<Zaza47>
*orientation
<Zaza47>
IgorPec nop
<IgorPec>
i have setup scheleton for this testing, so it can do bash or ansible ... yeah. i'll sent it
<IgorPec>
i am done with infra
<joekhoobyar>
oh, also, feel free to send me ansible related tasks as well
<joekhoobyar>
before we switch topics, IgorPec
<joekhoobyar>
that is all. :)
<IgorPec>
ok
<Heisath>
#topic general
<Heisath>
Where possible move current to 5.15 and edge to 5.16
<lanefu>
so i have a laundry list of points on this
<Heisath>
5.15 is LTS, so it would make sense to get this to work on most boards.
<lanefu>
1. i strongly feel we should be able to accomodate a stable and old stable LTS
<lanefu>
2. we still need to overall our apt repo, and package management to minimize clobbering adn uncessasry updates
<joekhoobyar>
have to agree with lanefu's 1
<IgorPec>
is kernel switching not good for that?
<IgorPec>
good enough
<lanefu>
no
<Heisath>
to 1. : Keep old LTS as legacy, current LTS as current, and whatever is mainline/stable as edge.
<lanefu>
we need to have meta packages, so that we can have stable-5.10 stable-5.15
<Heisath>
Where to old LTS exists, use vendor kernel as legacy.
<IgorPec>
so you mean to do this on repository level?
<lanefu>
so that frankly is done just by better package config and naming on its own
<lanefu>
there's a seperate issue on a repository level
<lanefu>
which is we need to really have a repo per release for distro sepcific stuff
<lanefu>
aka stretch/bionic/etc
<lanefu>
that _can_ be retrofitted through better pathing
<lanefu>
that inself will stop so many upgrade breakages
<lanefu>
elephant in room is we need a new tool for making apt repos.. or fix the one we have
<lanefu>
still not sure what jira stories we have for that
<rpardini>
that goes into aptly / reprepro complexities crazinesses etc
<lanefu>
yeah, need to turn that into a real project
<lanefu>
fortunately doesnt require armbina-specific expertise, just debian/apt expertise
<lanefu>
should be managable to find some help for that
<IgorPec>
#action improve repository management
<IgorPec>
but we also have a problem here that our main tool is badly maintained
<IgorPec>
i am affraid we will run into serious troubles once we will start using more advanced principles
<rpardini>
I've been moving/gathering together the repo code in armbian/build for armbian-next, but haven't really touched it.
<lanefu>
we are already running into serious troubles by not addressing it
<IgorPec>
no, i mean repository can crash
<rpardini>
and from non-Armbian experience, aptly has been slow-moving and erratic, while reprepro has 1-version per-arch limitation
<IgorPec>
it has crashed a few times and i had to manually recrate it
<lanefu>
answer sounds liek find a new tool?
<IgorPec>
well, a research has to be done on the topic
<lanefu>
I can co-own that issue, if someone else will participate
<IgorPec>
i don't know cons and pros of the other one
<lanefu>
we need someoen external i think
<lanefu>
there's clearly not time or passion here (not critizing, just stating)
<IgorPec>
that would certainly help. sum a story
<IgorPec>
that's all we can do now
<Armbian-Discord>
<ercatli> making apt repos? I think... hmm
<adeepv>
lanefu y can try to research repo with you. i have some troubles :)
<rpardini>
yeah. and be aware -- it's some of the more complex repos ever seen, Debian or Launchpad level stuff
<lanefu>
any existing jira stories.... gonna look
<IgorPec>
ok,
<rpardini>
not to dissuade of course, just to mean it's super interesting challenge
<lanefu>
:)
<Armbian-Discord>
<ercatli> right, I think I used reprepro
<lanefu>
ercatli oky work with me on this
<lanefu>
ercatli has the bandwidht/aptitute no pun intended
<joekhoobyar>
omfg lanefu
<adeepv>
y = i
<IgorPec>
here i would also like to get an attention to armbian-config refactoring. i think it suits into this section
<TRS-80>
Did we decide we are using Ansible now?
<lanefu>
yeah should be at least considered related.. maybe at epic level or so
<rpardini>
sure sounds like it
<IgorPec>
we had a few meetings on this topic and we have a new project manager that might take a lead on this
<TRS-80>
Or not necessarily?
<TRS-80>
Re: Ansible, for a long time, my view was against learning 'yet another Domain Specific Language' but more recently I have been spending a little time studying it and it is a very easy / straightforward syntax with really good documentation, FWIW. So if anyone is curious about it, I encourage you to take a look, dip your toe in, come on in the water is fine. :)
<juri_>
so, i have a lot of experience with ansible.
<joekhoobyar>
I also have a lot of experience with ansible
<lanefu>
same
<juri_>
I would hesitate to use it unless you're ready to nixify a container for it. it's not really stable.
<lanefu>
i also have access to some additional epert resoruces
<Armbian-Discord>
<ercatli> Ansible? Never touched that, bash scripting and some testing worked fine for me, erh
<juri_>
at $DAYJOB, i ship a docker image with ansible in it, so i can make sure to get the version that works. ansible is fragile.
<TRS-80>
I am getting ready to re-implmenting my personal dotfiles (v3) now in Ansible, FWIW. But I have no direct experience (yet) like guys above.
<lanefu>
juri_: bundling def required... there's ansible-execture and a few other thigns to package it tightly
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* IgorPec
must go off for a few min
<joekhoobyar>
to be clear - let's say the *installation* of ansible can be fragile
<lanefu>
it woudl be an indepdent install from the rest of the OS
<joekhoobyar>
the software itself is fine
<rpardini>
I tolerate Ansible as one of the less-worse of the participants in that space. But hey, there's enough bash there for everyone already....
<TRS-80>
@ercatli I was exact same, until I got tired of maintaining increasingly complex and breaky scripts all by myself, too much effort when such tools already exist like Ansible. IMO
<joekhoobyar>
agree on the docker container - I even sometimes get issues using pyenv or similar tools
<lanefu>
lemme know when you all wanna talk about that.. i'll grab an SME for soem extra guidance ont hose core install problems to make it easy
<juri_>
joekhoobyar: I have many days wasted from "this ansible works, why is my ansible code broken?" to find out the installed ansible is just.. insane.
<joekhoobyar>
juri - totally get it
<joekhoobyar>
in fact, at my day job, I had to bite the bullet because my peers couldn't install ansible
<rpardini>
but.... what would we use ansible for? what problems we have does it address?
<juri_>
docker (built with nix) just makes this easy.
<lanefu>
SME == bff is former ansible-core team member
<joekhoobyar>
and move to scripts instead. that made me weep
<TRS-80>
well yeah I guess this is a common Python related symptom, unfortunately
<juri_>
rpardini: every thing you're using shell scripts for.
<lanefu>
rpardini: replace all teh functionality of softy... and more elaborate system configuration
<Armbian-Discord>
<ercatli> juri_: oh, god no, no docker, please
<TRS-80>
rpardini: See my points above.
<rpardini>
juri_ yeah please take a look at such scripts before saying that hehe
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xoan4 is now known as xoan
<joekhoobyar>
rpardini, look at it this way. imagine getting idempotency for free, with less code that bash scripts
<juri_>
rpardini: i have. i stand behind it. :)
<lanefu>
okay... so whole sidequest ehere
<joekhoobyar>
that's why ansible is worth it
<TRS-80>
replace bespoke breaky scripts
<TRS-80>
joekhoobyar: +1
<rpardini>
you'd implement a build system in Ansible?
<joekhoobyar>
s/that/than
<ArmbianHelper>
joekhoobyar meant to say: than's why ansible is worth it
<lanefu>
anything to wrap up meeting
<joekhoobyar>
no... helper, I didn't mean that
<Armbian-Discord>
<ercatli> no, don't use ansible for a BUILD system, there's makefiles for that
<TRS-80>
rpardini: it's more for armbian-confi
<TRS-80>
g
<lanefu>
rpardini:: goal ansible tightly coupled with armbian-config
<Armbian-Discord>
<ercatli> ansible isn't a thing for everything, you'll end up with something that reminds everyone of how JS is
<TRS-80>
software install / config management, I am using it dotfiles for instance
<rpardini>
ahn. ok -- sorry for confusion. armbian-config.
<TRS-80>
rpardini had a minor freak out there, lol
<IgorPec>
armbian-config is a project for this whole year.
<juri_>
so, it seems like this is a topic with strong opinions. :)
<lanefu>
#REASSURANCE:: we know when and when not to use ansible
<TRS-80>
BUT I JUST REWORKED THE WHOLE BUILD SYSTEM, lol
<joekhoobyar>
rpardini, I can go off topic again, so you can vent your remaining frustrations on me?
<Armbian-Discord>
<ercatli> armbian-config is a project for a year? Hmm, ncurses + golang?
<joekhoobyar>
j/k I like poking
<rpardini>
uhh slow down I just lost track of subject for 30 secs.
<TRS-80>
I keed, I keed
<lanefu>
#defering armbian-config chzt for after meeting
<Armbian-Discord>
<ercatli> I think most users would prefer to opt-out of that...
<lanefu>
adeepv: yeah that's a no-go politically for any distro.. has to be opt in
<Heisath>
we have new rules for board support, so this topic is probably not needed in the future.
<TRS-80>
If we do anything like adeepv suggest, it should be opt in only
<TRS-80>
like Debian popcon
<Heisath>
We have image download counters :D
<lanefu>
adeepv: we have decent data thanks to using our direct tool for downloads
<lanefu>
just need to parse teh data better
<adeepv>
we can ask on first run
<IgorPec>
heisath: yes, we will adjust that on separate meetings
<lanefu>
s/direct/redirect
<ArmbianHelper>
lanefu meant to say: adeepv: we have decent data thanks to using our redirect tool for downloads
<adeepv>
download is not running :)
<Heisath>
So overall no changes in board support, just if a maintainer leaves or shows up.
<lanefu>
apt.armbian.com also informative
<lanefu>
Heisath: sounds correct
<Heisath>
ok great
<IgorPec>
yes, just statuses has to match reality
<Heisath>
Yeah sure.
<IgorPec>
not all are up2date
<Heisath>
#action Verify board status
<IgorPec>
and here maintainers should have more active roles
<Heisath>
Now to further dates, any objections to release on 25. of February?
<Heisath>
Or rather 28.?
<IgorPec>
weekend is better
<joekhoobyar>
yes, please. weekend
<Heisath>
then I will release friday. Then we have saturday if something breaks hard.
<joekhoobyar>
my job is getting crazy demanind the past month
<IgorPec>
for the release process - do we need rc builds?
<joekhoobyar>
s/demanind/demanding
<ArmbianHelper>
joekhoobyar meant to say: my job is getting crazy demanding the past month
<Heisath>
Same do we need a Code freeze?
<lanefu>
IgorPec: always
<IgorPec>
but there is close to no feedback on them
<lanefu>
we need an RC branch that we work against for fixing shit and building branches from
<IgorPec>
we have nightly builds
<IgorPec>
which are identical to master
<lanefu>
doesn't matter if feedback is poor.. keep trying
<joekhoobyar>
do we have stats on how many users are willing to install nightlies vs rcs?
<lanefu>
we have to learn to have a release tied to a branch
<lanefu>
otherwise its silly to even have htem
<joekhoobyar>
it may impact how much early feedback we get
<TRS-80>
Maybe make announcement in forum to bring attention to RCs?
<lanefu>
no stats. we need to market RC tseting better
<lanefu>
and sooner
<IgorPec>
fort hat we need to rework build fremework a bit
<TRS-80>
and IRC, etc. put in MoTD
<IgorPec>
RC we said 2 weeks before?
<TRS-80>
maybe tweet it out as well
<lanefu>
TRS-80: brillaint call on motd
<joekhoobyar>
nice
<lanefu>
we can cut RC sooner
<Heisath>
Yeah RC in about middle of Feb.
<lanefu>
as soon as feature freeze is in plac,e we can make RC
<joekhoobyar>
s/nice/nice, TRS-80/
<ArmbianHelper>
joekhoobyar meant to say: nice, TRS-80
<IgorPec>
ok, then lets fix what is still open and RC
<Heisath>
11. Feb would have been my suggestion
<lanefu>
juri_: quick say some release and project managementy things
<joekhoobyar>
lmao, lanefu
<TRS-80>
or not
<juri_>
lanefu: the right things have been said. :)
<Heisath>
Ok last topic, next release person?
<lanefu>
remidner: IT'S OKAY TO CHERRY-PICK FIXES FROM RC TO MASTER, VICE VERSA
<Werner>
anything important to me within the last 2h? could not pay attention
<Heisath>
no just keep your child happy
<lanefu>
Werner: yeah we talked about how great you are
<IgorPec>
next release officier - werner ;)
<Heisath>
Nah should be one of the new ppl
<TRS-80>
yeah, surprised you even appeared, and congratz btw
<Werner>
Why am I even asking lol
<lanefu>
would love to see a enthustatsic new person volunteer
<IgorPec>
juri_ ?
<Heisath>
Its easy, and good to start.
<juri_>
oh no. i've already got enough on my plate. :)
<lanefu>
be sure to overcommit yourself and burnout ASAP
<TRS-80>
:D
<Armbian-Discord>
<ercatli> ^ that's what I do
<lanefu>
TRS-80: should do it, would be eye-opening for him
<stipa>
not me
<juri_>
(i did two security releases at $dayjob on friday.. one near midnight!)
* TRS-80
volunteers for next to nothing
* lanefu
voluntolds TRS-80
<Heisath>
Yeah TRS-80.
<TRS-80>
because fear of burnout
<Heisath>
Or TheBug?
<TRS-80>
I send Igor some beer money to assuage my guilt
<lanefu>
Bug just started anew roll where he's learnign development.. so actually will cut him slack this round :)
<Heisath>
oh
<lanefu>
[TheBug]: PS proud of you!
<Heisath>
Well think about it guys/girls.
<IgorPec>
yes, we will
<lanefu>
we should review our list of no-shows
<joekhoobyar>
wait, let's talk about armbian-config for another six hours first
<TRS-80>
When is next release? May, right? I go back to work in spring probably. I don't think I could do it then, too busy. But I can maybe do few things next month or maybe 2.
<lanefu>
TRS-80: you're always goin back to work
<IgorPec>
thank you Heisath for conducting the meeting!
<TRS-80>
yeah thanks Heisath
<Heisath>
np
* rpardini
claps for Heisath
<Heisath>
Today was good response actually.
<Werner>
then do #endmeeting and hope it does not crash :P
<Heisath>
Last meeting was a bit horrible
<lanefu>
yeah thanks Heisath! and i thnk yhou'ev done the few most recent ones? so def worthy of a break
<Heisath>
#endmeeting
<joekhoobyar>
next time I will try harder to be on time
<TRS-80>
seems to me like he is always doing it, but I come and go a lot
<Werner>
IgorPec has to do that since he is chair
<IgorPec>
#endmeeting
ArmbianHelper changed the topic of #armbian to: armbian - Linux for ARM development boards | www.armbian.com | Github: github.com/armbian | Commits: #armbian-commits | Developer talk: #armbian-devel | Forum/Twitter feed: #armbian-rss | Type 'help' for help | Logs: -> irc.armbian.com
<ArmbianHelper>
Meeting ended Sat Jan 29 15:25:31 2022 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
<TRS-80>
just a couple hours later would have been swell for me in Eastern time (GMT -4/5)
<joekhoobyar>
C64 was my first computer
<joekhoobyar>
PCjr 2nd
<lanefu>
color computer 3 for me
<adeepv>
Is there anyone with a time zone greater than UTC+3?
<Heisath>
Not anymore I think
<Heisath>
As said gprovost and aaprayoga where later, but they dropped out.
<TRS-80>
juri_: My first programming experience in BASIC in like elementary school, hence the moniker. :) It generally elicit nostalgic responses. :)
<Werner>
,unload meetbot
<ArmbianHelper>
The operation succeeded.
<lanefu>
!
<sunshavi>
retro computing time
<sunshavi>
Atari here
<joekhoobyar>
nice. always wanted an Atari
<Zaza47>
coffee refill time
<IgorPec>
zaza47 check pm
<sunshavi>
BASICA was mine
<IgorPec>
aha, sory, got it
bluntnose has joined #armbian
<lanefu>
IgorPec: do we have newer documentation on armbian-config stuff than what i had draftd in docs.lane-fu.com?
<IgorPec>
i have send you invite to some google docs.
<Zaza47>
already answerd
<TRS-80>
I did not mean to create a scene earlier talking about Ansible, I guess I was just excited to share my thoughts about it, as I think it will be better for me that a bunch of fragile, customized scripts I have been maintaining all by myself so far. But others here have much more actual experience it sounds like.
<TRS-80>
Isn't there something better than Google Docs we can use?
<IgorPec>
people use it
<TRS-80>
Like some self hosted markdown thing on lanefu.org?
<IgorPec>
we have lanes documenting system ;)
<IgorPec>
but this was done by new guy
<juri_>
cryptpad is nice.
* Heisath
needs to leave now, have a nice weekend.
Heisath has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<TRS-80>
s/for me that/for me than/
<ArmbianHelper>
TRS-80 meant to say: I did not mean to create a scene earlier talking about Ansible, I guess I was just excited to share my thoughts about it, as I think it will be better for me than a bunch of fragile, customized scripts I have been maintaining all by myself so far. But others here have much more actual experience it sounds like.
* TRS-80
looks up cryptpad
<joekhoobyar>
lanefu: hedgedocs looks interesting. going to message my boss about it. we need online help at duplocloud.com
<lanefu>
TRS-80: its all good
<rpardini>
Yeah sorry for mixing stuff up between armbian-build and armbian-config vs Ansible
<lanefu>
i love hedgedoc
<juri_>
I went from jumpstart -> FAI (shell + cfengine) -> Chef -> Ansible -> Kubernetes (helm). I've done a LOT of automated distro stuff.
<rpardini>
hedgedoc love love
<lanefu>
i kinda wanna setup a dedicatd oen for armbian
<lanefu>
just for like document drafts and planning
<bluntnose>
self-hosted? git?
<TRS-80>
Yes hedgedoc is pretty lightweight, amirite?
<[TheBug]>
#wassleepingsorry
<rpardini>
I just wish it could use git as backend
<lanefu>
but yeah... even if it synced/exported to git
<lanefu>
i'd likethat
<TRS-80>
I object to Google Docs on freedom grounds of course, but it is also JavaShit heavy which is a separate issue. CryptPad seems like F/LOSS but looks "featureful"
<TRS-80>
aka 'heavy' to me, but I never actually used it
<bluntnose>
uh, what about just localc?
califax has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
<bluntnose>
oh, right, WEBPAGES
<IgorPec>
we internally mainly use lane's doc system which is perfecly fine
<TRS-80>
bluntnose: Well this is more for WIP stuff I guess. Like whiteboard use-case.
<rpardini>
I've learned from users, they gotta have armbian-config first thing after boot/login, without network, ppl love to use it for wifi setup for example
<bluntnose>
IgorPec: no, no, this is all unnecessary, fine, let me write it all up in a few hours
<bluntnose>
oh, for armbian-config...
<TRS-80>
> everything is simple
<bluntnose>
oh, it is
<rpardini>
so we gotta ship all venv stuff ready to run on first boot...
<jock>
bluntnose: thanks for the pastie, I see, but aren't there exceptions? All errors are checked with ifs?
<juri_>
I'm telling you, docker.. :)
<rpardini>
I'd be very interested in adapting whatever solution we come up with for that for some other python stuff as well (OLED stuff etc)
<bluntnose>
jock: exceptions can be described as the error type, I guess
<IgorPec>
bluntnose: this has to be done slowly over this whole year. move exsting armbian-config useful features
* TRS-80
would not give a fig for the simplicity on the near side of complexity, but my kingdom for the simplicity on the far side
<bluntnose>
oh, if python is so good, why is matrix's synapse a joke, then? :^)
<bluntnose>
lanefu: well, you know... libvirt and virt-manager
<joekhoobyar>
But I am thinking of doing a personal open source one, for pacemaker cluster resources. :)
<joekhoobyar>
I would really like my pacemaker XML to be IaC, and idempotent
<joekhoobyar>
it's best way to do LVM => DRBD => floating IP => NFS, imho
<lanefu>
bluntnose: yeah f that noise..
<joekhoobyar>
been using it since 2007. :)
<joekhoobyar>
lol
<joekhoobyar>
I have not used libvirt
<rpardini>
IgorPec: on the POW, "... support launching containers as systemd units/services" -- I had success with podman for this, but not any daemon based like Docker or containerd. How this is related to armbian-config though? Would it be some kind of generic container launching easy-to-use thing like the linuxserver.io + LibreELEC they have?
<joekhoobyar>
But I've used kubevirt. it's nice
<lanefu>
rpardini: yes exactly... focusing more on pre-bundled shit from linuxserver.io
<IgorPec>
rpardini: reusing as much as possible + having option for custom
<bluntnose>
wait, wait
<lanefu>
rather than re-inventing the wheel for installing popular "appliance" installs
<joekhoobyar>
rpardini: I believe that flatcar linux takes this approach.
<bluntnose>
oh dear, I remember a lot of those... oh, nvm
<joekhoobyar>
launching containers from systemd units
<joekhoobyar>
and has helpful documents on the topic
<TRS-80>
that is main idea, offload as much of maintenance as possible, and not re-invent the wheel, when other tools already exist
<lanefu>
yeah point is it's just a "service' for the user
<bluntnose>
in simple terms, a lot of users would fetch crap from linuxserver.io, not sure it properly, and then wonder why they ended up on... mmm
<rpardini>
yeah RHEL-related stuff likes to mix systemd and containers and vice-versa (containers running systemd)
<lanefu>
adn no docker-compose bullshit
<bluntnose>
*secure
<IgorPec>
we still need a very roboust frame, cli and x-based.
<IgorPec>
and all functions under unit tests
<lanefu>
tui, cli, gui
<bluntnose>
no, CLI is all we need
<lanefu>
bluntnose: incorrect
<TRS-80>
lanefu: I heard you say that many times, still not sure I understand your hatred which burns like a thousand suns, but I am genuinely curious to know as this is clearly in your wheelhouse
<TRS-80>
re: docker-compose
<bluntnose>
no, well, are you trying to make a fancy distro or are you trying to make a usable distro that doesn't require wayland and crap?
<rpardini>
yeah. If I'm not mistaken, LibreELEC has docker+containerd as an extension, static binaries running as a Kodi system background addon. Then there's some Kodi UI to download and setup linuxserver.io containers
<bluntnose>
all that is needed is an ncurses-based armbian-config
<TRS-80>
bluntnose: all due respect, lurk moar
<bluntnose>
lol
<lanefu>
bluntnose: we haev visual impaired folks, adn people wanting to automate using armbian-config
<lanefu>
so CLI adn ncurses needed
<lanefu>
gui is really just using a wrapper framework similar ot ncurses
<TRS-80>
I mean, name checks out :)
<lanefu>
hence my reference gooey
<joekhoobyar>
CLI definitely needed to aid automation, +1
<bluntnose>
good lord, gonna eat up RAM like there's no tomorrow
<joekhoobyar>
if I can't automate it, I don't use the software
<bluntnose>
don't complain when people's SBCs are swapping to the SD card and dying early on
<lanefu>
bluntnose: dont undestand your point
<bluntnose>
it's like using java for everything
<[TheBug]>
we got 8GB of memory now, no need to be conservative anymore..
<[TheBug]>
lol
<lanefu>
we're not talkign abotu an installer
<rpardini>
sometimes I just wish we were on IRC and could devoice people
<rpardini>
oops.
<bluntnose>
lanefu: no, armbian-config
<bluntnose>
the need for python
<TRS-80>
personally I see no need for armbian-config whatsoever, but IgorPec, rpardini, lanefu and others say we need it, so I probably even help out in making it at some point.
<bluntnose>
this weird fantasy, we're talking about low-ram systems
<rpardini>
wait, I never said "we" needed it, I said users like it
<IgorPec>
lets say this way
<lanefu>
smallest spec SBC is 512meg.. really 1gig
<rpardini>
I personally never used it
<joekhoobyar>
TRS-80: I am with you. With raspi-config, I look at the source code, then write my own code to automate the same tasks
<joekhoobyar>
with ansible or shell
<IgorPec>
core will be still small, but you will have a fancy GUI for running it
<TRS-80>
^ yes this, sorry to mis-state your exact position, was not my intent rpardini
* [TheBug]
was being sarcastic ;)
sdoran has joined #armbian
<lanefu>
hey sdoran
<joekhoobyar>
But, if armbian-config has CLI capability, and is idempotent...
<sdoran>
Howdy.
<bluntnose>
welp, let's go and join the debian arm ports team
<TRS-80>
hallo!
<joekhoobyar>
then it also works fine for automation, and can be a simpler entry point for folks
<IgorPec>
not all people lives in CLI world like we.
<joekhoobyar>
yes, I understand the need for TUI.
<bluntnose>
no, I am trying to say that python is a bad language choice
<lanefu>
sdoran: we were talking about how to bundle ansible with armbian-config adn not make it a whole ordeal that interferences with teh system etc
<joekhoobyar>
as long as we also support non-interactive mode
<bluntnose>
jesus christ, ansible isn't fucking needed here
<IgorPec>
non-interactive is 1st goal
<joekhoobyar>
no, no, no bluntnose
<TRS-80>
I guess I was not convinced of that argument IgorPec, at least not on SBC? I mean, I guess something like PBP would be different story. But SBC?
<joekhoobyar>
not ansible *inside* armbian-config
<joekhoobyar>
ansible *running* armbian-config as a use case
<bluntnose>
oh, perhaps so
<joekhoobyar>
not as part of the software
<IgorPec>
framework will call either "apt X" or "ansible Y"
<[TheBug]>
armbian-config is useful as an entry way into handling some of the items in a understandable way for people who are coming from x86 which would originally be confused on how to do some of those things. For anyone with any extended understanding of Linux already, unless it's pointed out to them they may never even use it. It really is there to help bridge the gap from the newbies to the
<[TheBug]>
expert and offer some 'convience' as well.
<bluntnose>
[TheBug]: why not just write wrapper scripts and add in bash functions?
<bluntnose>
or actually tell them how to do X and Y
<TRS-80>
How do you use SBC if not at command line? I mean there are some desktops but how many peopls using Armbian in that way? (genuinely curious)
<[TheBug]>
bluntnose: you are thinking dev level and not support level is why
<lanefu>
bluntnose: anyway we're still talking about _requirements_ than language write now... I spec'd python original from a practical perspcetive.... we don't have to hyper optimze here.... people can install armbian-minimla images adn not have armbian-confi gat all
<IgorPec>
and armbian-config is an on target extension of framwork we could also say
<joekhoobyar>
I never use the desktop on any of my SBC
<[TheBug]>
the issue is use comes and says "HOW DO I CHANGE KERNEL, I NEW"
<sunshavi>
IgorPec: I am also a TUI guy
<[TheBug]>
you say, "armbian-config"
<bluntnose>
[TheBug]: hmm, why don't you just ban and point them to the docs again?
<[TheBug]>
someone says "HOW DO I CHANGE CPU SPEED, I NEW"
* rpardini
installs armbian-config just because it inadvertently contains neofech
<[TheBug]>
you say "armbian-config"
<joekhoobyar>
bluntnose, I share your opinion on not having python - but I will not push the point. I'll go with whatever.
<rpardini>
s/neofech/neofetch/
<ArmbianHelper>
rpardini meant to say: * rpardini installs armbian-config just because it inadvertently contains neofetch
<TRS-80>
So it is to lessen support burden on us, is what I am getting from [TheBug]
<[TheBug]>
so it's a tool to streamline support
* IgorPec
uses desktop a lot. But to run terminals ;)
<bluntnose>
you see, you take what openwrt does, for new developers, and you apply it here
<bluntnose>
don't spoonfeed, they will come back for more
<joekhoobyar>
lol, IgorPec
<[TheBug]>
TRS-80: correct, which has been a big issue in the past
<sunshavi>
When i need all the SBC power I go to framebuffer
<joekhoobyar>
I think golang has gotten quite rich, as the ecosystem goes.
<sunshavi>
But right now on openbox
<bluntnose>
>2 hours later
<joekhoobyar>
there is a nice benefit, if we choose it - that there is no library hell anymore
* TRS-80
just never been a fan of 'wizards' and stuff. Simplicity on the near side of complexity IMO.
<lanefu>
i'm fine with golang the core for armbian-config
<TRS-80>
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<[TheBug]>
thing is everyone here most likely already has experience enough that they likely wouldn't use it much or if they did, do so for convience
<joekhoobyar>
the user cannot break the installation
<lanefu>
as long as its plugalbe for hte requirements desceribeed
<lanefu>
ex: running ansible shit
<lanefu>
ex: running exisitng bash stuff that hasnt been ported
<joekhoobyar>
of course we can
* TRS-80
thought Golang was high level wizard shit but it's actually not at all now that I looked into it
<lanefu>
we're not gonan big bang to migrate all fucntionality. so plugable runtime. that lets things be driven by tui or cli arguments
<joekhoobyar>
yeah, golang is a systems programming language
<joekhoobyar>
and it's not hard
<bluntnose>
yeah, gotta write everything in NODEJS, it's webscale
<joekhoobyar>
rust is awesome, but it will make us take WAY LONGER to write our code
<lanefu>
okay.. so i thikn we can put a pin in hte language debate
<bluntnose>
oh god no, not rust
<joekhoobyar>
so I can't recommend it, even though I'm dying for an excuse
<lanefu>
and say golang is a plausable path
<IgorPec>
we have to deliver this software :)
<[TheBug]>
cRUST
<lanefu>
lets get back to addressing venv worries about ansible :)
<joekhoobyar>
ok, ok, lanefu is right. will quiet down the tech nerd ADHD from my side
<TRS-80>
in fact one of explicit design goals of Google was 'to get (their typical) new/young devs up to speed and productive as quickly as possible'
<lanefu>
there's something called "shivs" we can used to package an ansible zip app
<lanefu>
i dont know exactly what that entails
<lanefu>
but it sa thing
<rpardini>
lanefu: indeed I've not yet looked into that but looks promising
<bluntnose>
reminds me, actually, other IRC channels will ban you for talking about the "rust people"
<rpardini>
shiv seems to solve the first-run-able of python if I'm not misled/mistaken
<bluntnose>
those people join these OSS projects, destroy them, and then want to fork it (and if they fail, they go away)
<rpardini>
yeah ppl love to talk more but gotta go make dinner.... thanks for meeting and all, sorry for those I offended, hope to make friends soon. salute!
<sdoran>
Python has the ability to execute zip files that are created in a certain way. `shiv` is just some nice tooling to make those.
<TRS-80>
bluntnose: that's what I think of when Rust is mentioned, FWIW
<[TheBug]>
rpardini: have a good one
<IgorPec>
yeah, i also have to focus on my kids
<TRS-80>
rpardini: cheers~
<TRS-80>
and IgorPec
<jock>
rpardini: bye!
<[TheBug]>
rpardini: thanks for all your work
<lanefu>
sdoran: how would that work with bundling roles,playbooks, and collections
<bluntnose>
TRS-80: well, and if you check the offtopic room in the armbian discord, err
<lanefu>
just kinda shove it in thesame thing
<[TheBug]>
jock: Sup! ;)
<TRS-80>
yeah rpardini hats off to ya, mate!
<IgorPec>
will catch up later, see there is a lot of stuff to answer in forums as well
<jock>
IgorPec: see you!
<lanefu>
cya IgorPec
<IgorPec>
cya, thanks for showing up in such a great number today!
<Zaza47>
see ya
<TRS-80>
bluntnose: I don't go on Discord
<bluntnose>
good, same, I had to, but only for certain things for "reasons"
<TRS-80>
it's Reddit-tier cancer IMO
<bluntnose>
based
<[TheBug]>
TRS-80: +1
<jock>
[TheBug]: all fine, thanks! Have been here lurking the meeting
<[TheBug]>
jock: yeah I was super late :Z just wanted to say hey! see that all was going well?
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<TRS-80>
although Voron (nice community based 3d printer) community seems largely based there, what do? So I may have to at some point 'for reasons' as well.
<jock>
[TheBug]: everything nominal :D
* TRS-80
remembers to look for possible IRC channel for them
<[TheBug]>
jock: awesome!
<joekhoobyar>
I avoided Discord forever, but my son got me to join
<sdoran>
So rather than create a venv, you can put the venv in a zip file, which can contain supporting Python libraries and collections.
<joekhoobyar>
on the venv side, it can't be that hard. I mean, the aws CLI has vendored-python dependencies
<joekhoobyar>
it's a common practice
<sdoran>
And importlib is able look inside zip files.
<joekhoobyar>
nice, I didn't know that
<TRS-80>
joekhoobyar: I am very stringent Free Software user and advocate. I been hosting my own XMPP server for years for instance. But normies don't care about decentralization and things many of us care about. It took years of arm twisting to get my extended family on there.
<[TheBug]>
man, my dad picked up this jamican blend coffee for the coffee machine, its making my morning... it's delicious.
<TRS-80>
Cafe Bustello FTW ;)
<[TheBug]>
joekhoobyar: Translation: We are old farts who don't like change, BAH HUMBUG!
<TRS-80>
maybe only 1 'l'
<sdoran>
And we added functionality in Ansible to look in the site packages directory for collections (some drama there but not relevant here).
<joekhoobyar>
sounds like I fit right in, TheBug
<joekhoobyar>
my main two servers are still running Gentoo
<joekhoobyar>
and I refuse to throw away the server I had in 2002, with Gentoo still on that HD last updated in 2008
<sdoran>
The only rub with a Python zip app is it require a Python interpreter in the host.
<joekhoobyar>
hasn't been plugged in in 6 years. lol
<[TheBug]>
:D <3 TRS-80
<joekhoobyar>
I need to get rid of those Gentoo boxes. sigh
<sdoran>
As of Ansible 2.12, that must be Python >= 3.8.
<juri_>
lanefu: yeah. i see ansible replacing the build system, not so much for on-box administration. in my world, my ansible (and other tools) is all in a docker container, built by nix.
<lanefu>
juri_: ahh interesting perspcetive
<joekhoobyar>
bluntnose: tview looks very nice
<juri_>
lanefu: I deploy kubernetes clusters, database servers, and my company's app on-prem, with no internet available.
<lanefu>
juri_: but yeah i can see it for managing deps and a lot o the workflow
<joekhoobyar>
look at that list of examples (projects using it)
<joekhoobyar>
that will seriously decrease dev time
<juri_>
for distro-building, i tend toward FAI, but that's probably me showing my age nowadays. :)
<juri_>
we moved from fai-mirror (really, reprepro wrapped) to aptly lately.
<lanefu>
k any another talking points, questions about armbian-config?
<bluntnose>
so, to be clear, it just has to look like the original one? If so, I'm already working on it, erh
<TRS-80>
I am going to try (once again) to auth to Jira. I will try old invite but it would be expired by now would be my guess.
<lanefu>
bluntnose: generally yeah should be similar...some things are poorly placed
<lanefu>
TRS-80: just re-sent invite for you
<TRS-80>
Well, I followed link from old one, it said I had account already, put in password I had and today it seems to work (finally).
<TRS-80>
It is asking me about integrations (to GitHub and many others). Should I say yes? Are these convenient or just more spying?
<bluntnose>
50-50, probably both
<TRS-80>
yeah I don't trust these faggots one bit
<TRS-80>
no offence to any actual faggots
<juri_>
well, that's wow. ;)
<bluntnose>
based TRS-80 dropping out the redpills
<TRS-80>
bluntnose: I should tone it down this project starting to become respectable
<bluntnose>
true, yeah
<bluntnose>
the magical t word really causes some butthurt on libera... anyways
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<TRS-80>
Lots of words cause butthurt, which is why I tend to use them more. It's a feature not a bug. But ... context. Now here I am Moderator. Lots of people involved. etc.
<TRS-80>
Because that is what I object to, the thought police. Anyway.
<bluntnose>
^
<juri_>
yeah, no.
<juri_>
not digging up.
<bluntnose>
I did do some research into one user who just replied in here, and oof
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<TRS-80>
But this is controvercial so I am not going to push this here. As I truly don't want to offend any actual contributors, who are valuable.
<bluntnose>
yeah, pain, stuck to rizon for that shitposting
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<TRS-80>
Politics and certain cultural things becoming so divisive it is getting hard to have any sort of sensible conversation any longer. Which is by design if you ask me. But besides the point.
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<TRS-80>
Anyway I should get back toi work.
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<sunshavi>
TheBug: everything is fine. Just a little bit busy with the children on summer. Hope everything is fine on your side
<[TheBug]>
Glad to hear. As lanefu mentioned, have a new position at work, so been extremly busy my self. Thanks for asking. :)
<[TheBug]>
Off to have a shower and go get some lunch, bbl
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<TRS-80>
Well, this Jira looks very busy, it will take me some time to get used to it, but at least I am in now. I guess I will repeat when lanefu returns.
<sunshavi>
here haircut in a few mins
<nekomancer[m]>
<TRS-80> "nekomancer: I think this is an..." <- it is :)
<sunshavi>
congrats on ur new position
<TRS-80>
Oh I am not taking any positions lol
<TRS-80>
Just trying to help out a bit
<TRS-80>
here and there
<sunshavi>
trs-80: Cool
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<lanefu>
i'm breaking up with allwinner very very soon
<TRS-80>
Well, this Jira looks very busy, it will take me some time to get used to it, but at least I am in now. I guess I will repeat when lanefu returns.
<TRS-80>
lol why
<lanefu>
spontaenous death pissing me off
<lanefu>
how long again did it show em as logged of irc
<lanefu>
s/again/ago
<ArmbianHelper>
lanefu meant to say: how long ago did it show em as logged of irc
<sunshavi>
I have just being reading the meeting and having fun. I think expressobin has a lot of changes on u-boot
<TRS-80>
17 to 34
<sunshavi>
and talking a little bit with TheBug
<bluntnose>
TRS-80: you watch mad at the internet, erh?
<bluntnose>
and yes, josh isn't great, but fiine
<TRS-80>
lanefu: I also do not see any way to create account on your docs site. I am here: https://docs.lane-fu.com/kLNjpG-jRGm15rVrkKE1Eg# but do not see any button at upper right nor anywhere else?
<TRS-80>
bluntnose: I don't watch anything
<TRS-80>
just research/study on youtube when needed
<bluntnose>
oh, it's kiwifarms/lolcow drama
<bluntnose>
never mind, I guess
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<TRS-80>
I also try to stay away from drama
<TRS-80>
real life is hard enough without artificially adding to that, imo
<bluntnose>
right, true, it can be quite inticing
<TRS-80>
lanefu: OK nvm, found it by going out to main/top page
<TRS-80>
diagrams, graphviz, even musical notation, wow
<TRS-80>
hmm, not seeing how to set avatar?
<TRS-80>
I gather that it is somehow 'automatically' gathered from libravatar or something like that, oh well
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