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<TRS-80> I don't think Armbian receive a lot of donations, and what are given do go to devs in some (a lot) of cases, other devs don't want/need the money. Anyway to your point something which has been on long term agenda is to form some sort of nonprofit and publish books to alleviate such concerns.
<TRS-80> repeated for logger
<c0rnelius> I just don't buy it is all. I understand the operation its self need funds to keep it running. But there are also people out there handing out mirror for free, this is linux and we are talking about Armbian here. Radxa dropped 10K less then a month ago.
<c0rnelius> So to give a FREE speech doesn't sound very inviting in my opinion.
<lanefu> It's about not giving free Customer service
<lanefu> And decoupling the expected obligation of armbian "devs" from providing customer service (aka support) to users
<lanefu> The software is free
<lanefu> The "community" needs to provide support to itself, we provide some communication channels
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<lanefu> Vendors ideally should interact with users about their device for "support" as well
<lanefu> I don't have a much better way to explain
<lanefu> But it's about making responsibilities modular to narrow everyone's scope to a manageable piece
<lanefu> And about creating a clear path for vendors to use the platform to support a device and their customers
<lanefu> Additionally the other purpose of this is to create a real meaning for what a "release" is vs a nightly
<lanefu> And for the love of God hopefully get to the point that apt update doesn't randomly brick something
<lanefu> And that you feel okay putting a SBC in a remote location with a supported image that you can apt update when thered some nasty kernel bug and an update is needed
<lanefu> We need this new level of structure and participation to get to that point
<lanefu> I've got an HC4 running at my brother in laws 2000 miles away and it's uptime is probably close to a year now but I'm scared to update the kernel and packages
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<lanefu> Anyway I personally took on the impossible task of writing and designing the majority of the new support model for a global project with endemic communication challenges to individuals and vendors alike..... And try to make it fair, understandable, and consistent for everyone
<lanefu> And this is what we have so far: A path forward, a glimmer of sanity, and some people stepping up.
<lanefu> </rant>
<stipa> i think that people who earn living selling products with sbcs that run armbian shouldn't be a concern to guys who run an sbc as a nas at home
<stipa> that should be devided
<c0rnelius> Sorry I'm not ignoring you. But I just don't see the logic.
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<c0rnelius> If Armbian lost Devs and thats the real reason boards are getting dropped then, well thats one thing? If you the main devs don't have the time thats another thing. But if ur asking people to do the work for free that Armbian is getting paid for thats a whole other ball game.
<c0rnelius> Which from what I've seen `and I could be wrong` smells like whats going on here.
<lanefu> so maintainer != to development
<stipa> i think armbian devs are paid for their sufferings
<lanefu> but they can develop
<lanefu> also see the line here that says "best effort compensation"
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<stipa> c0rnelius: yeah, if you're a dev there's some compensation
<stipa> depends on donations
<c0rnelius> I mean, its a great line. I did read that. Not sure exactly what that means though. Look, I'm not trying to be a dick or start anything I'm just pointing what I find obviously flawed to me.
<lanefu> yeah maybe i missed your concern.. give me a thesis statement
<lanefu> and i'll speak to it my best
<stipa> it's simple, if you find yourself for some reason doing dev for armbian you'll be compensated for it
<c0rnelius> stipa: just stop
<stipa> c0rnelius: ok, i'll give you a moment to think about it
<c0rnelius> I don't need to think about it or write thesis on the subject. Its not bound by anything.
<stipa> there's no other way around it
<stipa> if you're a maintainer and things get nasty you'll turn into a dev for sure
<stipa> that'll be compensated
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Yep, you'll get a crisp high five and an honored place answering repetitive questions instead of pursuing your interests
<stipa> that's money unfortunately, it always bites you even when you do what you like
<stipa> maybe things work in some utopian imaginative world, but reality requires resources
<[TheBug]> c0rnelius: I have an answer for you, not sure if it will provide more clarity or not, but may better explain how we got here
<[TheBug]> c0rnelius: the answer your looking for is basically that Armbian is in a period of changing because the previous 'do everything for free' approach, while was beneficial to the fact we have images for an SBC it wasn't covering the large amounts of support requests being created where users expected what is essentailly a level of paid support. Though when they are told they need to pay for
<[TheBug]> support for these cases they just scoff and leave and act like we should do it for free. While there is a lot of donated time and money to Armbian it isn't quite justifying the higher level of support that some are expecting and this is what created the needs for the seperate levels of support.
<[TheBug]> That and without someone in specific to care for each board we were in a position where things were breaking and there was no one to address the issues. Instead of trying to half ass it, we decided to implement levels of support and this is why a lot got dropped from supported to CSC if there wasn't a full time maintainer.
<TRS-80> FWIW, a lot of these things are being defined for the first time here as well.
<[TheBug]> c0rnelius: the TL;DR: I think is generally this is growing pains of a non-profit that has exceeded the workload the organization can handle directly and we are in a weird spot of trying to figure out how to keep things moving forward and also stay in the black
<c0rnelius> [TheBug]: I can respect and its what I expected. But don't give FREE FREE FREE speech and then ask people to come in and do it for nothing. Just my opinion. Just drop the board? If the vendor no longer cares and the orig devs aren't interested fuck'em.
<c0rnelius> It just doesn't read write is what I'm getting at.
<c0rnelius> write/right? or whatever
<stipa> yeah, that's what's happening actually, people who care will maintain and boards without interest will be fucked
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> <--- Gets done with 11 hours of day job work to have how much compensation he gets for being a dev on Armbian explained to him.
<[TheBug]> c0rnelius: I think right now the issue is things are kinda ina state of flux, I think on the topic of compensation given time that will change -- I know we WANT to compensate those who make a effort to make Armbian better and support board and I know in the past compensation has been made in different forms to different members who have participated. I think as we start to get things
<[TheBug]> reorganized again we will be better able to define what compensation can/will be provided to those who do decide to take on things and help.
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> If I ran this project it would have been renamed zero-fucksian, so I try not to chime in on talks like this too awful much. :-)
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> exits stage right
<lanefu> points for hannah barbera reference
<stipa> i think this is a stupid debate
<Armbian-Discord> <i​nvisiblek> this wasn't my intention for sparking this convo
<c0rnelius> Its not a debate, its a conversation
<c0rnelius> and I think a much needed one.
<c0rnelius> I think its good to know where the TEAM is standing.
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Yeah, I'm not going to disagree with that
<lanefu> truth
<stipa> i think the plan is already in progress
<stipa> is there any point in changing it?
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> "plan"?
<stipa> "the contrac"
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Plan is support what is feasible for the team size
<stipa> contract*
<c0rnelius> I guess Tony didn't get the memo again?
<lanefu> nah tony's in sync
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Well I was too busy counting my compensation to read everything.
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> sarcasm
<c0rnelius> :)
<lanefu> he's being purposely pedantic about "plan" and "contract" which i mean i am too
<c0rnelius> luxury
<lanefu> it's more like a model and an intent
<stipa> T​onymac32 share some of your compensation with users too
<c0rnelius> This for some reason reminds of the Yorkshire men Monty Python bit.
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> So, my input going on 2 years now was to have no CSC images or download pages
<lanefu> and we finally 35% listened to him
<lanefu> watching python bit now
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Like I said, I'm not the guy to run a project like this because I don't bluster about issues, I would just cut off the arm
<TRS-80> glacial pace is a matter of perspective; I follow the Emacs mailing list
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> No worries, no harm no foul. A lot of people obviously have a lot on their mind
<lanefu> lol at yorkshiremen
<c0rnelius> lanefu: fucking great, right :)
* stipa
<c0rnelius> Which one did you watch, there a few. My fav is the live one.
<lanefu> c0rnelius: totally
<lanefu> the live one
<c0rnelius> So good
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<stipa> that's far from a photographer
<lanefu> ahh teh real tonymac32 !
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<tonymac32> will the real tonymac32, please stand up?
<stipa> great, i don't need to copy paste your nick anymore
<c0rnelius> Mitch Hedberg was great.
<tonymac32> haha
<c0rnelius> Fucking Norm MacDonald died. That guy was a legend.
<tonymac32> I can't see which knuckleheads are in here from Discord
<lanefu> I saw mitch live once
<c0rnelius> Really? Lucky
<lanefu> yeah saw him in Nashville
<TRS-80> tonymac32: The bot is here, that means they all are.
<TRS-80> oh ncm I think I get you now
<TRS-80> nvm
<tonymac32> when they come for me, they better hope their bots are better than mine :D
<lanefu> he's tired of talkin through the fence
<c0rnelius> Doug Stanhope is another classic. Just fucking out there funny.
<stipa> maybe bot coders got that thing going with who's on the other side bot command...
<lanefu> yeah maybe this bot doens't i dug throug h the code
* tonymac32 needs to boot up his CP/M machine
* TRS-80 lips move in silence ahead of speech
<TRS-80> My kung fu is stronger than your kung fu
* tonymac32 magically produces a Model 100 portable
<lanefu> man
<lanefu> im gonna fix my mac classic II on holiday
* lanefu thinks wishfully
* TRS-80 thought about coding up something in ERC to gather user names from "the other side" for easier autocomplete
<lanefu> do not think
<tonymac32> my CP/M machine is only about a year old Z80 backplane system
<lanefu> TRS-80: what's that crazy git repo thing you like
<tonymac32> because I love a good soldering kit
<lanefu> tonymac32: oh that thing that you soldered for a month
<TRS-80> lanefu: Sourcehut (
<tonymac32> lanefu I soldered it for a day because I'm not right in the head
<lanefu> tonymac32: before the fumes or after
<lanefu> TRS-80: yeah
<tonymac32> yes.
<tonymac32> drank half a bottle of bourbon while I was at it, actually
<tonymac32> was very stress relieving
<lanefu> oh that sounds kinda fun
<lanefu> stipa: do you get pissed and solder?
<stipa> a what?
<lanefu> do you get drunk and solder
<lanefu> lol
<tonymac32> what is this Bitainian you are speaking Lanefu?
<TRS-80> Oi mate
<TRS-80> you got a loicense for that soldering gun
<stipa> lanefu: well i tried, but for some reason there's no interest in soldering when alcohol kicks in for some reason
<lanefu> haha
<stipa> beat me idk why
<stipa> but i did a hole in leg with desoldering gun
<tonymac32> o ho
<lanefu> tonymac32: yeah i was trying to be more relatable, but then i forgot that stipa was canadia-croatian and i have no idea how that works
<TRS-80> hope you like anxiety
<TRS-80> cheers
<stipa> lanefu: i'm 100% Canadian mate
<stipa> bro
<tonymac32> you don't swear enough
<tonymac32> :D
<tonymac32> TRS-80 make it stop
<lanefu> TRS-80: this music
<tonymac32> needs hot air methinks
<lanefu> this is easy
<tonymac32> find a congress or senate
<lanefu> you just solder the old thign to 1 of this 2.54 holes
<tonymac32> done
<lanefu> or whatever it is
<stipa> tonymac32: i don't swear much, i'm a very food Canadian
<stipa> good*
<tonymac32> food canadians: more polite than the others
<tonymac32> :)
<stipa> TRS-80: that's a tense video
<tonymac32> that video is terrible
<tonymac32> hahaha
<stipa> that video is torturing
<lanefu> i'm not letting that guy do any surgery on me
<lanefu> okay you can change the key of the song
<lanefu> by goign to 1.5x
<stipa> he's good at connecting neurons together
<TRS-80> haha I knew you guys would get triggered by that just as much as I did :D
<TRS-80> reee
<lanefu> brb getting a xanax
<lanefu> whats that chip anyawy
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Lol
<stipa> who knows, i think there are some markings on the beggining of the video
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Attiny 20?
<lanefu> yeah i saw something that said tiny20
<lanefu> is that really yet another arduino friendly microcontroller?
<stipa> 0:22
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> I think it comes in DIP
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> So
<stipa> former Atmel now Microchip
<TRS-80> tonymac32: psssh, DIP package, noob!
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Ooh maybe not
<lanefu> oh snap we fluxin
<TRS-80> the soldering iron tip is bigger than the whole chip
<stipa> TRS-80: that one is dealt with hot air
<stipa> or baking
<stipa> maybe even hot lasers
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Paste and bake would be the best solution
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Hit air next
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Hot*
<TRS-80> I know
<lanefu> OMG i cant believe he just takes a hammer and smashes it into pieces at the end
<stipa> it says TINY29
<stipa> no, it's 20 yeah
<stipa> without A
<stipa> TINY20
<stipa> lanefu: that's a cotton swab
<lanefu> haha
<stipa> that shit is small
<stipa> around 1 mm
<stipa> 0.0393700787 inches
<stipa> lanefu: that's a perboard
<stipa> perfboard*
<stipa> the yellow tape is kapton tape, very resistant to heat
<lanefu> i was being silly :P
<Armbian-Discord> <T​onymac32> Lol
<stipa> well, i have been miserable few times too
<stipa> did some smd to thd converters using perfboard and kapton tape
<stipa> tht*
<stipa> kapton tape is sued as an isolator in those cases and smd chip is glued with super glue to it to keep it steady
<lanefu> who would litigate against tape?
<stipa> that's just for prototyping
<stipa> hacks like that, nothing that ends as a fix for someone else or in a product
<stipa> there's no fear of ending up on a court because of it
<stipa> that guy with that small chip probably used it
<stipa> afterwards
<stipa> it easily integrates with tht after that
<stipa> i think it's not just a joke video
<stipa> but, i'll solder some stuff tomorrow
<stipa> i'm looking forward to it
<stipa> soldering and all that is just an art in itself
<stipa> every day i love it more and more
<lanefu> it is fun
* TRS-80 tried his best to ruin the fun of soldering, to no avail
<lanefu> TRS-80: better luck next time
<TRS-80> gn frens
<stipa> gn
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<stipa> lanefu: it's much more frustrating than that video sometimes :D
<stipa> i would do the same in his place
<stipa> it's just faster than waiting proper PCB adapter or etching the adapter at home
<stipa> tomorrow i'll try to materialize this on a perfboard
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<lanefu> oo what is it?
<stipa> it's a module for modular synth, this schematic with a little mod added from me
<stipa> by me*
<stipa> i hope it'll work without much bugs
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<lanefu> oh cool
<stipa> yea
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<IgorPec> "<stipa> i think armbian devs are paid for their sufferings". Then we would need around 2-3M eur yearly budget.
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<stipa> IgorPec: at least there is a goal.
<IgorPec> this is just an answer. we have no goal to get there
<stipa> that's even hard for non open source projects
<nekomancer[m]> sea of money. nobody can spend so much money.
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<IgorPec> are you guys not employeed anywhere?
<lanefu> Lol
<stipa> IgorPec: i'm self employed failure
<stipa> one day i'll earn 2-3M eur a month
<stipa> netto
<IgorPec> so you perhas idea how much it costs if you need a dev tem of 20 people
<stipa> well, it depends of the value of each
<stipa> some are over confident and search too much for their abilities some aren't and don't search too much
<stipa> i would say, a 100k $ a month would be enough for Armbian as an open source project
<stipa> 20 people on and off
<stipa> just to keep project on going without profits
<lanefu> now if i could only remember what i was going to do
<[TheBug]> "I know exactly where we are, where the FUCK are we?"
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<IgorPec> [thebug] :)
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