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<TRS-80>
I don't think Armbian receive a lot of donations, and what are given do go to devs in some (a lot) of cases, other devs don't want/need the money. Anyway to your point something which has been on long term agenda is to form some sort of nonprofit and publish books to alleviate such concerns.
<TRS-80>
repeated for logger
<c0rnelius>
I just don't buy it is all. I understand the operation its self need funds to keep it running. But there are also people out there handing out mirror for free, this is linux and we are talking about Armbian here. Radxa dropped 10K less then a month ago.
<c0rnelius>
So to give a FREE speech doesn't sound very inviting in my opinion.
<lanefu>
It's about not giving free Customer service
<lanefu>
And decoupling the expected obligation of armbian "devs" from providing customer service (aka support) to users
<lanefu>
The software is free
<lanefu>
The "community" needs to provide support to itself, we provide some communication channels
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<lanefu>
Vendors ideally should interact with users about their device for "support" as well
<lanefu>
I don't have a much better way to explain
<lanefu>
But it's about making responsibilities modular to narrow everyone's scope to a manageable piece
<lanefu>
And about creating a clear path for vendors to use the platform to support a device and their customers
<lanefu>
Additionally the other purpose of this is to create a real meaning for what a "release" is vs a nightly
<lanefu>
And for the love of God hopefully get to the point that apt update doesn't randomly brick something
<lanefu>
And that you feel okay putting a SBC in a remote location with a supported image that you can apt update when thered some nasty kernel bug and an update is needed
<lanefu>
We need this new level of structure and participation to get to that point
<lanefu>
I've got an HC4 running at my brother in laws 2000 miles away and it's uptime is probably close to a year now but I'm scared to update the kernel and packages
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<lanefu>
Anyway I personally took on the impossible task of writing and designing the majority of the new support model for a global project with endemic communication challenges to individuals and vendors alike..... And try to make it fair, understandable, and consistent for everyone
<lanefu>
And this is what we have so far: A path forward, a glimmer of sanity, and some people stepping up.
<lanefu>
</rant>
<stipa>
i think that people who earn living selling products with sbcs that run armbian shouldn't be a concern to guys who run an sbc as a nas at home
<stipa>
that should be devided
<c0rnelius>
Sorry I'm not ignoring you. But I just don't see the logic.
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<c0rnelius>
If Armbian lost Devs and thats the real reason boards are getting dropped then, well thats one thing? If you the main devs don't have the time thats another thing. But if ur asking people to do the work for free that Armbian is getting paid for thats a whole other ball game.
<c0rnelius>
Which from what I've seen `and I could be wrong` smells like whats going on here.
<lanefu>
so maintainer != to development
<stipa>
i think armbian devs are paid for their sufferings
<stipa>
c0rnelius: yeah, if you're a dev there's some compensation
<stipa>
depends on donations
<c0rnelius>
I mean, its a great line. I did read that. Not sure exactly what that means though. Look, I'm not trying to be a dick or start anything I'm just pointing what I find obviously flawed to me.
<lanefu>
yeah maybe i missed your concern.. give me a thesis statement
<lanefu>
and i'll speak to it my best
<stipa>
it's simple, if you find yourself for some reason doing dev for armbian you'll be compensated for it
<c0rnelius>
stipa: just stop
<stipa>
c0rnelius: ok, i'll give you a moment to think about it
<c0rnelius>
I don't need to think about it or write thesis on the subject. Its not bound by anything.
<stipa>
there's no other way around it
<stipa>
if you're a maintainer and things get nasty you'll turn into a dev for sure
<stipa>
that'll be compensated
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> Yep, you'll get a crisp high five and an honored place answering repetitive questions instead of pursuing your interests
<stipa>
that's money unfortunately, it always bites you even when you do what you like
<stipa>
maybe things work in some utopian imaginative world, but reality requires resources
<[TheBug]>
c0rnelius: I have an answer for you, not sure if it will provide more clarity or not, but may better explain how we got here
<[TheBug]>
c0rnelius: the answer your looking for is basically that Armbian is in a period of changing because the previous 'do everything for free' approach, while was beneficial to the fact we have images for an SBC it wasn't covering the large amounts of support requests being created where users expected what is essentailly a level of paid support. Though when they are told they need to pay for
<[TheBug]>
support for these cases they just scoff and leave and act like we should do it for free. While there is a lot of donated time and money to Armbian it isn't quite justifying the higher level of support that some are expecting and this is what created the needs for the seperate levels of support.
<[TheBug]>
That and without someone in specific to care for each board we were in a position where things were breaking and there was no one to address the issues. Instead of trying to half ass it, we decided to implement levels of support and this is why a lot got dropped from supported to CSC if there wasn't a full time maintainer.
<TRS-80>
FWIW, a lot of these things are being defined for the first time here as well.
<[TheBug]>
c0rnelius: the TL;DR: I think is generally this is growing pains of a non-profit that has exceeded the workload the organization can handle directly and we are in a weird spot of trying to figure out how to keep things moving forward and also stay in the black
<c0rnelius>
[TheBug]: I can respect and its what I expected. But don't give FREE FREE FREE speech and then ask people to come in and do it for nothing. Just my opinion. Just drop the board? If the vendor no longer cares and the orig devs aren't interested fuck'em.
<c0rnelius>
It just doesn't read write is what I'm getting at.
<c0rnelius>
write/right? or whatever
<stipa>
yeah, that's what's happening actually, people who care will maintain and boards without interest will be fucked
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> <--- Gets done with 11 hours of day job work to have how much compensation he gets for being a dev on Armbian explained to him.
<[TheBug]>
c0rnelius: I think right now the issue is things are kinda ina state of flux, I think on the topic of compensation given time that will change -- I know we WANT to compensate those who make a effort to make Armbian better and support board and I know in the past compensation has been made in different forms to different members who have participated. I think as we start to get things
<[TheBug]>
reorganized again we will be better able to define what compensation can/will be provided to those who do decide to take on things and help.
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> If I ran this project it would have been renamed zero-fucksian, so I try not to chime in on talks like this too awful much. :-)
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> exits stage right
<lanefu>
points for hannah barbera reference
<stipa>
i think this is a stupid debate
<Armbian-Discord>
<invisiblek> this wasn't my intention for sparking this convo
<c0rnelius>
Its not a debate, its a conversation
<c0rnelius>
and I think a much needed one.
<c0rnelius>
I think its good to know where the TEAM is standing.
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> Yeah, I'm not going to disagree with that
<lanefu>
truth
<stipa>
i think the plan is already in progress
<stipa>
is there any point in changing it?
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> "plan"?
<stipa>
"the contrac"
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> Plan is support what is feasible for the team size
<stipa>
contract*
<c0rnelius>
I guess Tony didn't get the memo again?
<lanefu>
nah tony's in sync
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> Well I was too busy counting my compensation to read everything.
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> sarcasm
<c0rnelius>
:)
<lanefu>
he's being purposely pedantic about "plan" and "contract" which i mean i am too
<c0rnelius>
luxury
<lanefu>
it's more like a model and an intent
<stipa>
Tonymac32 share some of your compensation with users too
<c0rnelius>
This for some reason reminds of the Yorkshire men Monty Python bit.
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> So, my input going on 2 years now was to have no CSC images or download pages
<lanefu>
and we finally 35% listened to him
<lanefu>
watching python bit now
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> Like I said, I'm not the guy to run a project like this because I don't bluster about issues, I would just cut off the arm
<TRS-80>
glacial pace is a matter of perspective; I follow the Emacs mailing list
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tonymac32> No worries, no harm no foul. A lot of people obviously have a lot on their mind
<lanefu>
lol at yorkshiremen
<c0rnelius>
lanefu: fucking great, right :)
* stipa
shorturl.at/hkAOT
<c0rnelius>
Which one did you watch, there a few. My fav is the live one.