<zid>
(I doubt scraps is a hugely internationally applicable thing so.. picture reference)
<geist>
oh yeah LJS was sooo good
<geist>
haven't eaten at one of those in like 20 years
<geist>
dunno if they have them on the west coast
<sbalmos>
the only one left open near me is, somewhat conveniently, right around the corner from the airport I'm hangared at
<sbalmos>
wrenching or flying, then greasy fish, hush puppies, and those tasty crumbles... then afternoon food coma
<geist>
ah looks like the nearest one is in portland, or
<geist>
looks like a combo LJS/taco bell though. eww
<geist>
not going to have a nautical theme
<kof123>
> The Captain, on seeing the skewed image of Krusty on the balloon, answered, "Aye, that's Handsome Pete, he dances for nickels!"
<sbalmos>
oh wow that's double gastro-damage
<geist>
hmm, there was a competing chain that was pretty much identical back in the 90s
<kazinsal>
combining anything with a taco bell makes it worse
<geist>
captain jacks? something like that
<geist>
captain ds?
<sbalmos>
captain d's!
<sbalmos>
and then kinda a bit more sit-down, but was Bill Knapp's out near you also, or maybe that was a more regional thing
<sbalmos>
oh well, just finished my dinner after getting home. leftover pizza at midnight. that'll sit well, i'm sure. :o
<sbalmos>
g'night!
<sbalmos>
geist: oh hell, there's still a Captain D's right around the corner from the LJS near the airport. That may have to be the target for tomorrow / today
<geist>
there you go! nice A/B comparison
<geist>
i seem to remember captain ds were a little nicer
<geist>
but really it ws just because it was the closest one where i grew up in texas
<geist>
ah that one doesn't seem to be there anymore
<bslsk05>
www.phoronix.com: Linux To Drop Support For 15 Year Old, Never-Shipped Intel "Carillo Ranch" - Phoronix
<zid>
sad days
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<kazinsal>
first a binary gentoo distribution and now this. year of linux on the dead-top
<nortti>
funnily enough binary gentoo distro would actually be quite useful for a lot of niche and older hardware, since they're one of the few distros that still maintain ports to e.g. dec alpha or 32-bit powerpc
<kazinsal>
unfortunately I think the only arch the gentoo binary system has right now is amd64
<kazinsal>
and the CFLAGS aren't 2fast2furious enough for most gentoo users, being basically just -O2 -mtune=generic
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<epony>
in short, useless since it does not even cover 586 in 32bit
<epony>
also.. the modern Linux does not even fit on the older machines and would consumer the machines to do "busy idling"
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<kof123>
Andy and Bill's law is a statement that new software will always consume any increase in computing power that new hardware can provide.
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<epony>
---
<epony>
There is a mistake in the versioning of Windows11, they forgot the add the 3. in the system name.. yes, it's not Windows11 to Windows113. butt rather Windows3.11
<epony>
---
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<kof123>
well i just meant it depends on your goal; in another channel, was mentioned: https://macoy.me/blog/programming/LinkerLoaderIntro > funnily enough binary gentoo distro would actually be quite useful for a lot of niche and older hardware
<bslsk05>
macoy.me: Bringing a dynamic environment to C: My linker project
<kof123>
if the goal is JIT or similar, cross-compiling binaries is not necessarily counterproductive, but a lightweight toolchain would seem better
<FreeFull>
Linux 3.11 was "Linux for Workgroups"
<kof123>
but then you are back to: > the CFLAGS aren't 2fast2furious enough so a balance needs struck
<kof123>
it is not just software (applications), but toolchains: > new software will always consume any increase
<kof123>
*cross-compiling from a fancier machine to a smaller one
<epony>
"deep-ends"
<epony>
modular-composalbe engineering "block" construction principles apply, and.. new compilers use previous compiler generation capabilities
<epony>
so it's about compiler improvements not languages, and.. about computation and communication, not "software" ;-) things like that
<epony>
when in doubt, use Wirth language(s) theory
<epony>
with Dijkstra rigourous validity and Hoare strictness and Kleene expressions
<epony>
and then, make everything a compiler tool with a domain specific language in the userland of the system
<epony>
that'll do most of the implementation problems away
<epony>
in short: use UNIX
<epony>
(and CISC, supposedly you have brains enough for that)
<kof123>
sure, but should the unix be self-hosting or do you need a larger machine to compile for it ? i feel all that is... perpendicular is it really a unix if it is too slow to build things locally?
<kof123>
i am arguing against one size fits all more than anything..."scaling" some people want downwards as well
<epony>
UNIX ran on a 256-512KB machine serving 10-50 seats..
<epony>
now you have 10-50 NFT icons on a grid and think it's the best poke-mongol super-computer in the darned dark-force energy uninverse..
<epony>
it's dashit ;-)
<epony>
8bit PCs were typically 64KB and the 16bit ones about 128-256KB for their majority
<epony>
32bit machines were 1-4MB (typical middle 32-64MB to 256-512MB) to ending at 2-4GB, and 64bit machines are 4-64GB to 1-4TB (for now)
<epony>
and phones are typical 1-8GB for now
<epony>
all modes of "bootstrapping" apply as needed per machine class.. not one single solution, but it always starts with assembler (machine code) and macro-programming
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<epony>
it's all good, resources (time, space, state, switching) and their hierarchical relation between the machine and compatible machines before and after it
<epony>
"and that's about all I can think for now, Forrest" --Gith'bubba
<epony>
it's funnier when you mark the minutes of the above as years of computer development, 1924-1942, 1944-1955 etc goes up to 2004 (soon)
<epony>
(UTC times)
<epony>
quick you still have time to stuff something in up to 2008-2022, ah.. hardware assisted virtualiastion (happy faces, money shot)
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<sbalmos>
geist: for the record, slight edge to Captain D's, as most people say. not as greasy. but there's something to be said about the saltiness and butteryness of the batter that LJS uses.
<zid>
I wanted a battered sausage :(
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<kof123>
> all modes of "bootstrapping" apply as needed per machine class that's what i mean, stuck in a bootstrap rather than a JIT mentality. this is fine > ah.. hardware assisted virtualiastion yes, but what good did this do for the old gentoo machines? did they all get shipped free cpu add-ons?
<kof123>
i don't consider this a mainstream "target" but ...seems things are stuck in their ways
<kof123>
it is just conway's law to me
<kof123>
with software virtualization, maybe they could crawl along, maybe they have some faster cpu that can simulate the other cpus they are interested in. with hw-assisted...need that specific CPU with that feature.
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<epony>
virtualisation is a potential source of serious problems with the incorrect hardware emulation
<epony>
it's used for running legacy software while porting it, the machine virtual operation is its secondary benefit but not how you do it, except if you're hardwareless
<epony>
so, riscv is done in a qemu as programming, which is suckey-blowey
<kof123>
sure, but can qemu emulate riscv on <other arches> or only on riscv?
<epony>
but saves time and presents a system to "readjust" as a skin hyde onto the hardware modelling (given the emulator was not totally shot in the machine modelling)
<epony>
can can
<geist>
sbalmos: excellent!
<epony>
that emu is a platform type, and is "usable" for that kind of work, and work in progress
<epony>
there are other software emulators too, but this one is not bad to begin with
<epony>
in the past it was "cross-compilation" and "native hardware porting" and software to compile bootstraps at various stages
<epony>
then it was CPU modes
<epony>
and now you got virtualisation too, it's a very utilitarian reality you're experiencing these last 10-12 years
<epony>
and these techniques are reflected in the "compiler" generation (as in time of implementation) too
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<epony>
so modern compilers are virtualisation machinery (and that is not new, but now with hardware assist is recent)
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<epony>
so, you have "target" platform and compilers "emmit" code and you compile as it would
<epony>
and then you have split backend and fronted for the compiler, as indirection, with intermediate representation from the BCPL O-code to the Pascal P-code to the Java JVM-ByteCode etc..
<epony>
to the GCC IR and LLVM IR code, to that being a "targeted" platform as a virtual machine
<epony>
this helps add languages to a compiler without full rewrites, and later "emulate" virtual machinery
<epony>
so there is that to "produce" the binaries and an emulator to run them "virtually"
<epony>
kof123, bootstrapping involves compilers and languages, and hardware, and platfrom-architecture-microarchitecture matching and tuning, porting and testing, and can be done on previous generation machines for the next one, typically, or on later generation to revive or maintain previous ones or a different architecture (form factor) etc
<epony>
and then, some compilers target better a particular machine set and architecture, an artefact of its timeframe, so, you use more than one compiler or method sometimes
<epony>
it's not as complex as it seems ;-)
<epony>
but is important to use machine independent and architecture independent programming languages and portable compilers
<epony>
(which allow direct hardware manipulation)
<epony>
that's why implementation languages are mostly assembler, C and C++ from the respective time frame onwards as added tools
<epony>
later you might add a language to script your compiler which is an upcoming special interest and implementation progress
<epony>
and "reconfigurable computing" and "software defined architectures" for the most ambitious of you ;-)
* experemental
breaks a bottle on epony's head
* epony
takes the bottle out of experemental's forhead, how could you not see the incoming rubber forhead slap, dookie
<epony>
for-loopie head get it?
* experemental
slaps epony with the New York Times Sunday Edition
<epony>
that mIRC fandom userbase heh
<experemental>
epony.sorted()
<epony>
aha.. sorted, the chars from the newspaper are in your mouth via mental projection..
<epony>
totally unsorted crap ;-)
* experemental
slaps epony with Windows Update
<experemental>
but unique
<epony>
nice, but don't feed my machines without my permission
<experemental>
your machines end at irc server's send()
<epony>
experemental, and quit talking to my horse, the animal has its own rights of peace and serenity
<experemental>
i do not talk with horses like u
<zid>
Mutabah
* experemental
runs away
<heat>
wha thte fuck
<gog>
hi
<heat>
gog
<heat>
bazel
<gog>
heat
<zid>
I need to get my last couple of advent stars still
<zid>
someone make me do it
<gog>
do it now
<zid>
k you do it first, then tell me how
<gog>
i'm le tired
<heat>
LeTired James
<geist>
hihi
<geist>
i'm tired too. keep sleeping like 11 hours every night the last week
<sbalmos>
geist: that's when you know you've finally mentally shut down from work or anything and are truly on vacation :P
<gog>
hi
<geist>
sbalmos: yeah totally agree with that
<geist>
i haven't even thought about work in about that long
<sham1>
Soon we will live in the tE future
<kof123>
? TE Connectivity's communications segment supplies electronic components for home appliances, including products for washers, dryers, refrigerators, air conditioners, dishwashers, cooking appliances, water heaters, and microwaves.
<sbalmos>
The Future Is Now [tm]
<kof123>
i'll just say most things nowadays seem 180 of "the alchemy view" > The present issues from the past, and the future from the present. Everything is made one by this continuity > If then you do not make yourself equal to gog, you cannot apprehend gog; for like is known by like
<epony>
TI [Texas Instruments} a semiconductor manufacturer
<gog>
if you want to make yourself like me i know where to get the chemicals
<epony>
deepbluefenta/dev/null
<heat>
geist, can you do osdev without thinking about work?
<geist>
that's a good question
<gog>
i can't do osdev i've been staring at the same file for hours whle eating to distract myself
<geist>
to a certain extent no, which is one of the reasons i've been pretty bad about getting much done hobby osdev wise the last few years
<zid>
gog: Remember, if you can't make your own neurotransmitters, store bought is fine
<geist>
usually my spike of hobby osdev work is around now in the year because work tends to slow down and/or vacation time
<gog>
different class of cheimcals zid
<zid>
I wasn't even reading, I just wanted to make that reference
<gog>
nice
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<sbalmos>
geist: oh admit it, the spike is because more hobby osdev is a New Year's Resolution, which goes to die with all Resolutions in February. ;)