<GeDaMo>
Yeah, some browsers might still render it though
<nortti>
oh for sure, browsers accept all kinds of broken html
<nortti>
there's even html standard guidance for how to ignore most parse errors
<mjg>
:d
<mjg>
you can in part thank php
<mjg>
and microsoft
<heat_>
thank you php
netbsduser has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<heat_>
thank you m$
<heat_>
thank you webdevs
<mjg>
1. make webdevs type out html by hand
<mjg>
2. be surprised it's broken
<nortti>
yeah, pretty sure web browsers have been ignoring parse errors ever since original WorldWideWeb, some intentionally and some because no actual parsing into a tree was done
<nortti>
the html standard guidance aims to make it so that you don't end up with two conflicting results due to differences in browsers there
<nortti>
(also, funnily enough, I do think IE5 for mac at least *will* sometimes pop up a parse error dialog)
<zid>
yea most html parsers drop into a 'quirks' mode the moment they see something off
xenos1984 has joined #osdev
<zid>
(and start in quirks mode unless they see a strict doctype)
netbsduser has joined #osdev
<nortti>
I'm not even talking of a quirks mode, I mean ignoring e.g. the xml self-closing tag indicator on a non-self-closing element and continuing to parse in standards compliant mode
<Bitweasil>
It's a fun little read on popping IoT gizmos.
<mjg>
popping iot is probably like exploiting early 00s web
<mjg>
picking on the disabled
<heat_>
geist, those nest hubs are pretty beefy aren't they?
<Ellenor>
I consistently bite my friend for using a nest and an alexa instead of an old-fashioned thermostat
<Bitweasil>
I have a Nest thermostat, and the thing is stupid enough I'm seriously debating going back to a basic thermostat.
<Bitweasil>
Smart Learning! "Zoof? You turn tempurter up Tuesday afternoon! Must be every Tuesday want temperature high!" No, kid was taking a bath...
<kof123>
just imagine pinky i guess *zoinks*
<Bitweasil>
Yeah, except even dumber. :(
<Ellenor>
I could make a smarter thermostat... and it would still run on shitty Linux.
<Ellenor>
(It would have a human person motion sensor in the sanitary closet, which would turn the thermostat (either in the sanitary closet or globally) up several degrees, unless I emailed it to tell it to don't)
<geist>
heat_: not particularly
<geist>
just a usual quad a53
<heat_>
how much memory though?
<geist>
oh 1GB, i think
<geist>
i mean they're not embedded. they're so-so for something with a screen nowadays
<heat_>
yeah
<heat_>
i wasn't expecting too much compute-wise, but they certainly need a bunch of memory for stuff
<heat_>
and fuchsia probably isn't too light on memory anyway
<geist>
it's pretty good
<Ellenor>
i thought embedded was "the fact that this is a computer is incidental to performing the function people think it performs"
<Ellenor>
the fact that my computer is a computer is not incidental to its intended purpose, whereas the fact that one of those smart speakers is, is.
<Ellenor>
although it happens to be absolutely necessary
<geist>
well, sure, but then when talking about cpus or socs, there's usually a more defacto definition of embedded
<geist>
ie, a microcontroller
<Ellenor>
i suppose
<geist>
of which the lines are blurred a bit right now, but usually the difference is you dont run a 'large' OS on MCUs
<Ellenor>
not a multi-user OS where at least some interprocess separation is expected
<geist>
it's a moving definition, but as it stands MCUs usually dont have an mmu, are usually 32bit or less, etc
<geist>
yah
<Ellenor>
the fact that your TV is a computer is incidental to it televising (its core function being televising) - I would consider that embedded, although it probably uses a 4-bit acorn risc machine
<Ellenor>
64*
<Ellenor>
don't think they do arm in 4 bit
<Bitweasil>
Pretty much. I would handwavingly define embedded as "If it runs an OS, it's for task scheduling and basic services, but the bulk of your code is bare metal, and the chip is designed for realtime consistency, not always throughput."
<Bitweasil>
The M-series ARM chips with a lot of SRAM, for instance.
<Bitweasil>
They're insanely consistent in execution time of a particular hunk of code.
<Ellenor>
ah
<Bitweasil>
But "embedded" is a bit like porn in that it's hard to define, you just know it when you see it. :/
<Ellenor>
and that's the core of the apparent clash in our definitions
<heat_>
great analogy
<Bitweasil>
I think so, you're looking at it top down, I'm looking at it bottom up.
<kof123>
and thus ends the analogy :D
<Bitweasil>
And then you get the weird stuff, where you've got a couple M series cores and SRAM on the same general package as a few A series chips with DRAM and a GPU, and... then everyone just mumbles and mutters about heterogeneous compute.
<Ellenor>
if my boombox had a compopter in it, that would be embedded. it doesn't look like it should, appx. all the controls are analogue, it has tape decks... if it has anything more than very rudimentary digital circuitry in, that would probably be an embedded computer from its time
<Bitweasil>
As far as I know, though, most modern "smart speaker" type devices are running a full Linux kernel and such down in there.
<Bitweasil>
Which blurs the lines a good bit.
<Ellenor>
that heterogenic SOC is confusing me. do they work as the same computer (like can cores directly schedule over to the other type, barring NUMA issues), or do they work separately? does the M handle the realtime stuff and the A handle the soft real stuff?
<Bitweasil>
"It depends."
<Ellenor>
It's messy. People are messy.
<Bitweasil>
They work as separate compute clusters, typically.
<Bitweasil>
But also have some interaction between them.
<Ellenor>
The things people make, are mess.
<Ellenor>
y
<Bitweasil>
You're not going to see an A series core migrating a task to an M series core, but they usually have more than a UART connection between them, and often enough (but not always) can access each other's memory via various mappings, and... "See your SoC's datasheet for details."
<Bitweasil>
If you've ever wondered about ARM's "inner vs outer shareable" things, I believe those are an example where the "same cores" are in the inner region, and the "different cores" are in the outer region.
<heat_>
my mouse has an arm processor
<mjg>
lol
<Bitweasil>
My mouse is an ARM peripheral! :D
<mjg>
my ereader has a linux kernal
<Bitweasil>
Same.
<heat_>
LINUX KERNAL
<Bitweasil>
Kobo?
<mjg>
why are they not making mobile phones with itanium kurwa
<heat_>
because you killed it mjg
<mjg>
Bitweasil: pocketbook
<mjg>
heat_: they could have before 2022
<Ellenor>
A serial story I'm in the process of writing is messy. From the first episode, you kinda get the idea that the place is a pseudo-utopia. The second episode harshes that a bit, to "utopia within the confines of earth weather under SSP-8.5 at 2260 A.D.". The third episode introduces farm conscription. "Corvée", we call it. The point? I'm not sure where I'm going. People are messy. Their creations are
<Ellenor>
messy.
<Ellenor>
The SoCs Bitweasil is talking about are messy.
<heat_>
every soc is like this
<Ellenor>
My brain is messy, because I've been filling it with caffeine as a substitute for both sleep and food.
<heat_>
a conventional PC has several microprocessors with several architectures
<Bitweasil>
A cluster of "4x of the same core" is a lot easier to reason about than the heterogeneous ones, though.
<Bitweasil>
... but anymore, even those are mostly big.LITTLE or some variant of that.
<mjg>
i have a short story idea
<Bitweasil>
Often enough separate L2 caches, but shared L3, and... etc.
<Bitweasil>
Computers are just a mess. :/
<heat_>
my mouse example is funny because it mirrors the ones you find in mobos/SoCs, but with USB instead of SPI, or whatever
<mjg>
computers suck
<Bitweasil>
mjg, yup.
<Ellenor>
I have a cluster of 4 Arm & Hammer Baking Soda boxes in a bag here.
<Bitweasil>
Planning to take a nice break from them next year.
<mjg>
interestingly the webdev think systems are great software
<Ellenor>
I think I've fully lost it
<mjg>
and firmware
<Ellenor>
mjg, they worship what they cannot even slightly understand
<Ellenor>
they used to look up to webdev, then they got into it and it was all trash
<heat_>
what's with the doomer vibes atm
<mjg>
millenials getting to bommers age
<mjg>
you gotta talk shit mate
<Ellenor>
Gen Z watching shit sink beneath the waves, and watching millenials become fash
<Bitweasil>
heat_, looking around at the state of the world?
<mjg>
you will hit puberty, you willu nderstand
<Ellenor>
i've hit puberty twice, by some definitions
<immibis>
I want to see an OS that can make a single computer out of an Ethernet-connected cluster
<Ellenor>
do any of you know the parable of the techie, her gun and her printer
<GeDaMo>
immibis: VMS?
<Bitweasil>
immibis, wasn't that plan9?
<immibis>
was that plan9?
<Ellenor>
"this is the smartest not-directly-computer piece of tech I own, and I am drilled on rapidly loading my frearm in case it makes a funny noise"
<Bitweasil>
Ellenor, that a technophile has everything connected and nothing quite works, and someone who's worked with tech... yeah, that.
<Bitweasil>
"I keep a loaded shotgun leaning against the table in case it makes an unrecognized noise" is the punchline I know for that. But, yes, same sentiment.
<Ellenor>
plan 9 cannot oneify a network; it can, however, make networked computing much less painful within its problem space
<Ellenor>
Bitweasil, you see, where I'm from, we don't store guns loaded unless there's a VERY good reason
<Bitweasil>
Define "single computer"? You're not going to get a single system image machine over ethernet, but you can get a very tightly coupled cluster.
<Ellenor>
(that can go for both ways of answering "where I'm from")
<Bitweasil>
Ah. I live in the rural US mountain west. Guns are most commonly loaded. :p
<immibis>
what do you define as a system image?
<immibis>
Americans probably keep their guns loaded to kill people faster. Americans like killing people.
<Bitweasil>
Typically, single uniform physical memory space.
<Ellenor>
... one IPC domain, I guess?
<immibis>
what do you define as an IPC domain?
<Bitweasil>
Though, again, there's a bit of "I know it when I see it" there. Two machines with a NFS share are not, RDMA does not a single system image make, etc.
<Ellenor>
processes talking to each other as they do processes on the same machne
<immibis>
processes on my Linux home box do talk to my dedicated server the same way they talk to my home Linux box
<GeDaMo>
Processes which can move transparently between computers?
<immibis>
in both cases with IP sockets
<Ellenor>
"single system image" = i have my text editor open here, and the OS on these two computers bats it back and forth between them based on which computer can better run it at the time, with nearly no impact on my use of it
<immibis>
I don't see what that has to do with anything that could reasonably be called a "system image"
<Ellenor>
true
<Ellenor>
I was using Bitweasil's sense of the term
<immibis>
moving processes between cores is already expensive. Moving them between NUMA domains is very expensive. Moving them between computers is very very expensive. It's just a special case of NUMA
<Bitweasil>
I ran some OpenMosix clusters back in the day, I wouldn't call that a single system image.
<Bitweasil>
It could just migrate tasks between machines.
<Ellenor>
Probably about that tight then?
<Bitweasil>
Hm? That wasn't a single system image, though.
<Bitweasil>
Anyway, not sure it really matters unless there are particular specifics being discussed.
<Ellenor>
ah.
<immibis>
the Linux multicore boot screen displays 4 penguins because it's 4 copies of Linux that pass around processes between them, and when you view it through that lens, it inspires you to think about passing them farther
<Ellenor>
oh...
<Ellenor>
i want to drink some unsee juice
<Ellenor>
if I had any sense, I would have hung up the compopter and built a compost bin *checks iguana* 2 years ago
gog has joined #osdev
<gog>
hu
<gog>
hi
bauen1 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
<bl4ckb0ne>
ho
GeDaMo has quit [Quit: That's it, you people have stood in my way long enough! I'm going to clown college!]
<nortti>
< mjg> rumor has it google is feeling edgy and wants to skip arm64 for the next mobile dev < mjg> riscv is out as well < mjg> so, ultrasparc ← do they make embedded 64-bit ppc cores?
<heat_>
moon-child, lol you don't have the Zkmakmakwmjnadjanwdha extension
<heat_>
basic ITANIUM C++ name mangling looks ok and is mostly understandable by humans
<heat_>
until you get such names as "_Z11make_uniqueIN11compression21decompress_bytestreamEJ10unique_ptrINS0_20decompression_streamEERN3cul5sliceIhLm18446744073709551615EEEEES2_IT_EDpOT0_"
<heat_>
and in those cases you give the fuck up and pull out c++filt
<Ermine>
Mangling depends on arch?
<heat_>
depends on the abi
<heat_>
gcc uses the itanium c++ abi
<heat_>
thankfully rust is unified so they have a single name mangling scheme
<heat_>
oh? what? that's not true?
<heat_>
rustc broke something? shocking.
<mjg>
?
<bl4ckb0ne>
what? rust agreeing on something?
gbowne1 has joined #osdev
<heat_>
mjg, they broke the mangling ABI randomly a few years ago
<mjg>
:p
<mjg>
was it for the greater good tho
<heat_>
you can see like 2 different mangling schemes