klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<kof213> https://dmitry.gr/?r=05.Projects&proj=25.%20VMU%20Hacking > It is a pity that the CPU architecture is so user-hostile that I cannot imagine targeting a C compiler to it. Nobody's going to write serious code in assembly for an obscure old CPU, right? > Well...I would. > Currently no Cortex-M23 silicon exists, so the VMU now might be the first real device you can get your hands on that will run Cortex-M23 code! Ha!
<bslsk05> ​dmitry.gr: VMU hacks (&C-M23 emulator) - Dmitry.GR
<kof213> > Not only does it expose all of the VMU's functionality to the emulated code, it even allows interrupt handling, nesting, and exceptions to work properly like a real Cortex-M23
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<zid> can we free(cmake) after
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<sham1> ::operation delete cmake;
<zid> I am gas, gas, gas
<mcrod> hi
<gog> mewo
<mcrod> gog may I hug you
<Ermine> hi gog, may I pet you
<gog> mcrod: yes
<gog> Ermine: yes
* mcrod hugs gog
* gog hug
* Ermine pets gog
* gog prr
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<mcrod> unrelated
<mcrod> i actually feel a little horrified at how much employers seem to be spying on github accounts
<mcrod> i don't think this is happening widespread
<zid> spy on their wives
<mcrod> but a friend of mine got shit on earlier this morning because he made a commit to one of his repos, and his boss messaged him about 2 hours later asking "weren't you supposed to be working"
<Cindy> mcrod: "you worked on something on your sick day?"
<mcrod> I wish it was practical to be completely, fully anonymous sometimes
<mcrod> but... that's harder than ever
<Cindy> "you like working on your open source crap more than here? then get out"
<mcrod> i tried to be fully anonymous a year ago
<mcrod> had a list of things on my desk not to say or do
<mcrod> it was impossible
<mcrod> everything blocks tor, everything shits on proxies, can't use CAPTCHAs, can't use discord
<mcrod> using github was virtually impossible, although I could commit and push through tor
<mcrod> and proving to employers that you are who you say you are became much harder
<heat> linux
<mcrod> linux
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<bslsk05> ​EtchedPixels/FUZIX - FuzixOS: Because Small Is Beautiful (250 forks/2016 stargazers/NOASSERTION)
<heat> alan cox has his own sysv clone
<kof213> yes, i am not a "privacy is gone, get over it" person, but at the same time...what can you do without littering details all over the place
<kof213> sit in the woods at a typewriter
<kof213> i'm sure the modern typewriters would have chipped ink lol
<GeDaMo> Just move to the other Internet
<kof213> or, you have a family member/friend someone pay all your bills. ok, then they have no privacy lol
<kof213> assuming you could convince them in the first place.
<kof213> and you trust everything in their name...that could never backfire
<kof213> > Just move to the other Internet that just makes me think john wick bowery king pigeonnet
<zid> can we use the normal internet
<zid> but move to a different web
<zid> I don't wanna have to have two modems
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<zid> I have carbs on carbs for dinner, I win
<Bitweasil> I know more and more tech sorts who are just... over consumer tech in their personal lives.
<Bitweasil> I'm pretty much there. I'd rather spend my time around an old truck or something than screwing with computers.
<Bitweasil> Gave up on smartphones, went back to a flip device, I don't carry it often, etc.
<Bitweasil> Qubes + Tor solves a lot, but as mcrod noted, you can't access a lot of the internet through it. Even various read only sites are blocking Tor exit nodes for "We won't tell you, but you know who you are..." sort of nonsense reasons.
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<mcrod> it’s sad
<zid> never encountered a tor block that wasn't "your ip is banned cus abuse" and a quick alt-shift-l didn't fix
<mcrod> Bitweasil: i think for me, it became nothing but a profit machine in 10 years
<mcrod> there's no joy in anything anymore
<mcrod> i'm.. really not sure how to put my discontent into words
<zid> I have an imgur gallery you can read that may resonate
<bslsk05> ​'The latest scam' - ''
<heat> geist, how's zircon handing out virtual addresses > 48-bit?
<heat> i was mildly surprised to hear that even riscv suffers from a bunch of software assuming everything over the 48th bit is free
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<gog> my phone is shattered on all sides and i cba to get a new one
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<gog> my stepdaughter got a new one to replace the same exact model that has a defect which may be fixable
<gog> if i can fix it i'm gonna start using it but, cba
<gog> not a priority
<gog> that said, one of the scooter apps here has made their app perform like shit on devices without some specific EGL hardware feature idk which
<gog> and it's the one my company reimburses trips with
<gog> stop adding features
<gog> stop writing new code
<gog> fix and delete more code
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<gog> this PR i'm working on has not enough deleted code and i feel unethical
<heat> linux
<netbsduser> deleting the entirety of Linux would be a bit excessive
<heat> lets delete linux and use a humbler UNIX
<gog> let's all go back to 386BSD
<heat> there's no need for support for 100000000 CPUs and 50 million TiB of RAM
<netbsduser> https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2023/10/01/32-mib-working-sets-on-a-64-gib-machine/ apparently on Windows some magic flag you can set to indicate your process is a background process also secretly limits its working set list to a maximum of 32mib
<bslsk05> ​randomascii.wordpress.com: 32 MiB Working Sets on a 64 GiB machine | Random ASCII – tech blog of Bruce Dawson
<Bitweasil> zid, alt-shift-l?
<gog> return to monke
<heat> monke unix
<gog> my boss broke the fucking build again
<gog> god damn it
<heat> perdon gog
<heat> por veces acontece si?
<gog> no, el jefe le rompé construcción de la programa
<Bitweasil> zid, ouch. That gallery hits pretty hard. Not wrong, though.
<heat> a el jefe le encanta la construcción del núcleo linux
<netbsduser> i bet the jeffe really is enchanted with the construction of the nucleus of linux
<netbsduser> i would be too
<gog> nadie se encantan el núcleo linux
<heat> vamonos usar un núcleo UNIX más humilde
<gog> claro
<heat> con grandes funcións como lookuppn
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<heat> y pagedaemon
<heat> dem
<heat> demonio de páginas
<gog> que es 'página'? regresemos al segmentatción
<netbsduser> that phrase just doesn't seem quite write when translated on another language
<gog> regresmos al mona
<netbsduser> "duilleag diabhal"
<gog> i should go home
<heat> no gog, yo quiero usar el VAX con páginas de 512 mordidas
<heat> porque eres el tamaño de un sector
<gog> sí, no mas con sectors de 4096 mordidas
<gog> "formato avanza" mi culo
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<heat> yo quiero un formato de paginación con listas enlazadas
<heat> como ce dice en ingles, eres mucho OPTIMAL
<gog> en ingels es "PERFORMANT"
<Ermine> Что?
<heat> friedrich ingels
<heat> jajajajajajajaja
<zid> can you write the portuguese bits in a language someone has actually heard of, like church latin
<zid> or moldovan
<GeDaMo> Klingon
<heat> nu am vorbit limba portugheza zid
<heat> also wow the google translate latin support kinda sucks ass
<zid> google translate sucks for language
<zid> which is unfortunate
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<heat> so what's it good at? moving objects along an axis?
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<heat> "Like the Zen/Zen+ microarchitecture, Zen 2 supports page table entry (PTE) coalescing. When the table walker loads a PTE, which occupies 8 bytes in the x86-64 architecture, from memory it also examines the other PTEs in the same 64-byte cache line. If a 16-Kbyte aligned block of four consecutive 4-Kbyte pages are also consecutive and 16-Kbyte aligned in physical address space and have identical page attributes, they are stored into a single TLB entry
<heat> greatly improving the efficiency of this cache"
<heat> zen is just an arm64 core with a different frontend and it's very funny
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<Bitweasil> Yeah, there's no "contiguous" bit, and I think ARM prefers 8-entry contiguous blocks, but... very similar. :)
<heat> hmmmmm i am wondering
<heat> does it set the A bit?
<heat> A should only be set if the instruction retires though...
<Bitweasil> The accessed flag?
<Bitweasil> The ARMv8 manual explicitly says that speculative accesses can set it.
<Bitweasil> ("may")
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<heat> i don't think x86 does though? although may be wrong
<Bitweasil> Yeah, but x86 is really strictly formal with memory accesses/ordering/etc compared to ARM.
<Mondenkind> https://lobste.rs/s/mitnma/#c_xjde5e apropos nt vm
<bslsk05> ​lobste.rs: 32 MiB Working Sets on a 64 GiB machine | Lobsters
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<geist> heat: i'm guessing the AMD coalesces it but maybe remembers which entry caused the TLB load so it writes back to just that one?
<geist> or maybe A bit is sloppy. but D bit has to be very precise
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<Bitweasil> I don't think it does...
<Bitweasil> Oh, I think you're right. The architecture does not permit updates to AP[2] by the hardware management of dirty state to occur as a result of speculative accesses.
<Bitweasil> But speculative accesses can update the access flag.
<geist> right. think of the A bit writeback as happening asynchronously when the cpu first fetches the TLB entry from the page table
<geist> as it loads it, it notices the A bit isn't set so it writes it back then. hence why speculative accesses may update it
<Bitweasil> Makes sense.
<geist> but D bit is more precise, you have to write it back only if you actually commit a write, so speculative writes have to stay in a queue (which they do anyway) and only update if written back
<Bitweasil> We don't speculate, so I can ignore some of that, but I did have to look up the access flag behavior recently.
<geist> FWIW as verbose as the ARM manual is, once you absorb it you really learn a lot about how modern architetectures work, since most of these techniques they describe are universal
<Bitweasil> Yeah, though I think the ARMv8 manual is both needlessly verbose in some areas and "scatters the relevant information over 17 separate sections."
<geist> yah
<geist> thankfully for things like a random register, their naming convention is solid enough that you can just search for it
<geist> TCR_EL1, etc
<geist> and in general you can find the first mention, and then that's hyperlinked to the definition of it, etc
<geist> so it's pretty good for random lookup
<Bitweasil> Mostly. But, yes. They do hyperlink within the manual very well.
<geist> provided you have a supercomputer that can hold the PDF in memory and process it in a reasonable amount of time
<geist> i wonder if i took like a llama2 model and trained it on these manuals if it'd actually be useful
<geist> i fired up llama.cpp for the first time last night, was kinda interesting, actually works
<geist> wasn't *too* bad. a 13B model took about 10GB ram and lit up 16 cores of my 3950x and would produce a word about every 250ms
<geist> so was reasonably fast
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<relipse> does macos contain any linux?
<Bitweasil> I don't think it ever had any.
<Bitweasil> It was always BSD based.
<heat> sure it does
<heat> GNU bash
<heat> if you count that as linux
<puck> BSD stands for Bash S....okay i can't think of anything funny
<puck> GNU + MACOS
<heat> geist, yeah im just curious cuz I use the A bit to shootdown TLB entries
<heat> which is honestly a questionable optimization but whatever
<heat> >Because SQL Server on Linux is SQL Server on Windows, with the NT kernel running as a user-mode Linux process. See Drawbridge.
<heat> fuckin
<heat> eyebleach
<heat> i need some
<geist> huh now that's fascinating
<geist> or... probably m ore correctly, it's some sort of NT emulation shim, and the quote is not really correct
<geist> since most folks can't tell the precise difference between a kernel and something that looks like a kernel
<bslsk05> ​arstechnica.com: How an old Drawbridge helped Microsoft bring SQL Server to Linux | Ars Technica
<heat> it seems kinda like a libos
* mcrod vomit
<mcrod> MSSQL
<Ermine> So they brought windows along with ms sql to linux
<heat> finally
<heat> that's whta i was looking for
<heat> windows on linux
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<Mondenkind> hrm. A subsystem for linux, to let it run windows applications--a windows subsystem, for linux?
<targetdisk> so question. does the Posix-UEFI library require that I compile for strict ANSI C or can I use newer C2X features/extensions?
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<geist> heat: yeah so a libos doesn't really seem that terrible. that's done all the time, build a shim to translate one to the other
<geist> targetdisk: ugh, that's lame. honestly i really dont like that library. if i were to uefi stuff i'd probably just write my own, or steal from fuchsia
<geist> but, i'd probably only be using a limited amount of uefi anyway
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<targetdisk> wait so can I compile in C99 mode or not tho?
<targetdisk> GNU-EFI is the lame one. I found POSIX-UEFI okay
<heat> what
<heat> POSIX-UEFI is garbie
<gog> clang
<gog> heat: clang
<heat> "what if UEFI, but POSIX" is like the most overkill shit i've ever heard
<heat> also the author is a PoS IIRC
<heat> gog, msvc
<gog> i'm implementing POSIX in UEFI heat
<heat> no
<heat> dont
<gog> i am
<heat> you are not
<gog> did you see my janky syscall abuse
<heat> i like you
<heat> don't make that change
<heat> i can't have deep conversations with people that implement POSIX in UEFI
<heat> those people aren't to be trusted
<mcrod> hi
<gog> mcrod is helping me
<gog> tell him
<mcrod> heat is friend
<mcrod> but
* mcrod point and laugh at heat
<heat> oh yeah it's bzt
<heat> fuck bzt
<gog> who is bzt
<Ermine> author of gnu-efi afaik
<Ermine> and bootboot
<heat> a guy who flamed around in the osdev forums for a good while
<heat> no, author of posix-uefi
<Ermine> and scalable fonts thing
<kazinsal> for a while he was banned from the forums
<kazinsal> someone let him back in
<kazinsal> idk why
<kazinsal> I think he was banned from the freenode channel as well
<mcrod> when I hear "GNU"
<gog> i'm going to have a whole POSIX-compliant environment in UEFI
<mcrod> I think "I'm 40,000 years old and I'm stuck in my old ways"
<kazinsal> unix as a uefi application
<kazinsal> whole v7 filesystem implemented on top of FAT32
<Ermine> and now he claims that toaruOS is the only OS allowed for discussions and worshipping here
<heat> mcrod, you're literally using GNU software atm
<mcrod> yes
<mcrod> but I also built gcc recently
<mcrod> and I read the mailing lists
<heat> building gcc is easy
<mcrod> it is impossible to imagine that they function on a regular basis
<heat> LLVM is so much worse with its bespoke build system in tons of arcane cmake variables
<mcrod> I'm starting to think I went overkill with this project though
<mcrod> however, I will see it through to the end
<heat> like yes gcc is annoying to tinker with if you have to mess with autoconf
<heat> however, LLVM's build system is a huge LUL
<Ermine> Why did they even chose cmake
<heat> it's the 'default' C++ build system
<mcrod> there is a bug in the CMake scripts though
<mcrod> and I spent too long on #llvm
<kazinsal> heh. that posix-uefi repo's readme opens with a screed about how reddit is witch hunting him because he needs to use a warning disable flag to stop the compiler from complaining that he's doing some kind of on the fly transparent UTF-8 to UTF-16 conversion in redefined builtins, and the compiler is going "wtf are you doing"
<mcrod> only for someone to tell me "yes, it sucks, I wrote it and I'm telling you it sucks"
<bslsk05> ​github.com: SAMEthing/toolchains/unix/cmake/llvm-stage1.cmake at main · mcroddev/SAMEthing · GitHub
<heat> strlen(wchar_t *str) lmao
<bslsk05> ​github.com: SAMEthing/toolchains/unix/cmake/llvm-stage2.cmake at main · mcroddev/SAMEthing · GitHub
<Ermine> but Onyx
<targetdisk> how do I enable the extension that lets GCC do binary constants? (e.g. 0b1010101)
<mcrod> i'm not sure that's actually controllable on a granular level
<Ermine> -std=gnu<something> ?
<mcrod> besides enabling GNU C itself as a whole
<heat> yeah i think that has been an extension for a long while
<mcrod> also for what it's worth
<mcrod> the LLVM examples don't have CACHE STRING "" FORCE everywhere
<heat> mcrod, ok now realize building an autoconf project averages out to 0 lines of code in build mumbo-jumbo
<mcrod> i was asked to submit a patch and I never did
<mcrod> .
<Ermine> Maybe turning it to hex and writing some comment is an okay option
<heat> whereas in LLVM you either pass all that garbage in -D flags or you're toast
* Ermine is toast
<kazinsal> binary constants in C are C23
<heat> yummy
<heat> Ermine, but Onyx what
<kazinsal> not sure what gnuXX they're in
<Ermine> it doesn't use cmake
<heat> it does not
<heat> i would rather use autoconf to build rustrustrustrsutrustrust than cmake
<Ermine> that's nice
<heat> and i hate autoconf
<heat> but damn it's usable
<mcrod> i hate you
<heat> ok
<mcrod> :(
<heat> cd .. || exit
<heat> i see
<heat> you followed #bash's suggestions
<mcrod> brother
<mcrod> listen to me
<Ermine> qt6 moved to cmake :(
<mcrod> I have come to the conclusion that bash scripting is horrific no matter what I'm doing
<mcrod> powershell scripting is much simpler
<heat> || exit is just noise
<mcrod> and much less footguns
<heat> like fooking hell
<mcrod> and I have to restructure that script
<mcrod> build LLVM and GCC, then use the built LLVM to build the rest of the dependencies
<heat> what
<mcrod> what
<heat> why
<mcrod> why not
<mcrod> because: speed
<heat> it's inherently cross-compilation unfriendly
<mcrod> if you mean cross compilation on linux->windows or something
<Ermine> powershell scripting is like opening ISE and keeping docs nearby
<mcrod> then yes
<Ermine> Because I forget this stuff quickly
<mcrod> heat: this is turning out to be a lot harder than I had thought for a full fledged application
<mcrod> that's all I'll say
<heat> what is?
<mcrod> this whole script
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<heat> kazinsal, fwiw what he really wants as an option is -fno-builtin
<heat> anything else is just a footgun if GCC ever thinks of calling a strlen(wchar_t *) with a const char* arg
<heat> mcrod, toolchain building is hard bud
<mcrod> yeah yheah
<mcrod> *yeah
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<targetdisk> my attempt so far: https://github.com/targetdisk/hello-efi
<bslsk05> ​targetdisk/hello-efi - Playing with EFI (0 forks/0 stargazers/AGPL-3.0)
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<netbsduser> kazinsal: it must be bzt
<netbsduser> elsewhere he complains that microsoft funded a troll army to ban him from the osdev communities
<kazinsal> the very same
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