klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<kof123> and...i would say inevitable too. higher level languages, quicker iteration perhaps...more throwaway code, because easier to throw it out and start over/make changes, at least marketing-wise.
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<gog> i'm going to reimplement openbsd in uefi
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<moon-child> i'm going to reimplement plan9 in java
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<kof123> that's good, you can use all the OO java plan9 libraries
<kof123> save you tons of work, rapid development!
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<kof123> actually that paper could be a subtle reference to lost in the supermarket, perhaps that is the digging
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<geist> i'm going to reimplement minecraft in cobol
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<kazinsal> I made a joke the other day about Final Fantasy XIV mods in cobol so I'm expecting someone to do it within a few weeks
<geist> yeah is there a gnu cobol compiler?
<bslsk05> ​gnucobol.sourceforge.io: GnuCOBOL - GNU Project
<geist> win.
<kazinsal> . o O ( unix clone written in cobol )
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<klys> tonight I plugged a fw800 device into a macbook pro 2020 running ubuntu with # echo 1 > /sys/bus/pci/rescan
<niceperson> [there are no further messages because it crashed]
<kof123> ^ i like how this array uses natural language for business people
<kof123> it is already beginning
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<geist> ah yeah fired up the old sparcstation 20. i forgot that it's a fairly usable system
<geist> headless at least
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<kazinsal> still need to sort out the vax. power supply seems to be hosed, probably some filter caps going bang
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<kazinsal> these days I have such little drive to fiddle with osdev stuff. I need something novel to be attracted to and we're in the era of everything being so homogenous again sadly
<kazinsal> makes me wish I was able to do kernel hackery in the late 80s/early 90s
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<mcrod> hi
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<betabube> hi
<betabube> was thinking about if i could just use emacs as an os
<zid> emacs is already an OS
<betabube> <3
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<heat> top 10 #osdev exchanges
<zid> sometimes it's best to just humor them
<zid> (also it's a 100% true fact)
<kof123> i will remember the guy who came in hey @$##$@$#@$#$@# or similar. surely that made the list
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<geist> kazinsal: yah that power supply in the microvax is a total unit
<geist> i haven't opened mine, but it's a serious piece of work
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<sham1> Emacs!
<heat> vim!!!!!!!!!!
<heat> quick vim vs emacs
<heat> mac vs windows
<sham1> You can have vim in emacs, but you can't have emacs in vim
<heat> is that a vim bug or a vim feature?
<sham1> It's a deficiency
<Ermine> is 'mac vs windows' holywar a thing
<heat> yep
<Ermine> $OS vs linux is much more common
<sham1> That Moolenaar (PBUH) never fixed
<heat> no, linux vs $other is a thing only for linux basement dwellers
<sham1> Well as a certified basement dweller...
<sham1> Anyway, I'm writing C++
<heat> windows basement dwellers do windows vs mac
<heat> actually even normal people kinda do
<Ermine> Did you see windows basement dwellers?
<sham1> Nah, normal people seem to do blue bubbles of iMessage vs green bubbles of actual SMS
<Ermine> Usually windows users have more important stuff to do than caring about OS
<bslsk05> ​www.reddit.com: Reddit - Dive into anything
<heat> sham1, normal people kinda do apple vs everything else, I guess
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<Ermine> I see more HW oriented stuff at this subreddit
<heat> everyone there uses windows
<heat> believe me, LINUX GAMING LOL
<sham1> Well yeah, it's full of gamers
<Ermine> Happy people who can buy stuff without worrying whether it will work with Linux
<heat> happy people that don't dive into xorg configs to enable V FUCKING SYNC
<Ermine> There are no usb wifi adapters in common stores that would work with linux without hassle
<Ermine> heat: true
<Ermine> So I had to fetch one from China
<heat> that sux
<heat> fwiw most desktop hardware things work with linux
<heat> even nvidia works fine. no, don't use nouveau
<sham1> Absolutely proprietaryu
<Ermine> I had bugs and annoyances with proprietary nvidia driver
<Ermine> So, no, not fine
<zid> ah so like windows then
<mcrod> nouveau routinely died for me
<Ermine> mcrod: kepler/maxwell card?
<mcrod> virtually no problems with the proprietary driver for me
<geist> yah basically functional nvidia drivers on linux is why it's more or less the only non windows os i can run on my workstation
<geist> since i actually want good support for my nvidia card
<mcrod> Ermine: ampere
<Ermine> Ah
<heat> i found memory bugs yesterday when running eglinfo in the nvidia shared objects
<mcrod> sometimes I’ll get a kpanic due to the driver
<heat> that said, nvidia proprietary is far better than the nouveau garbage
<mcrod> but that’s like.. once, twice a month
<mcrod> shouldn’t happen at all but whatever
<mcrod> consistent with windows
<Ermine> nouveau being garbage is nvidia's fault
<heat> is it?
<zid> 50/50
<Ermine> yes
<Ermine> because of all that fw stuff
<heat> nvidia sell hardware, they even gave you a driver
<zid> Drivers are bad even on windows and takes millions of dollars of development to not suck, don't forget
<geist> at least in my experience nvidia > amd > intel in terms of driver stability, on windows
<mcrod> the day NVIDIA is significantly more open with their specs is the day the internet will break
<zid> They also have to jump through lack of docs hurdles, sure, but, I wouldn't expect them to make a decent driver regardless
<sham1> Just get AMD
<geist> as in i rarely get any sort of issue with my nvidia setup on windows
<heat> mcrod, what specs?
<geist> and AMD was historically pretty unstable
<Ermine> I had kepler, and nouveau freezed because of some bug in nouveau-provided fw and nouveau devs have no clue what's wrong since 2014
<zid> geist: yea it's been up and down as to how close people were, but that's the general rule
<mcrod> heat: hardware documentation
<heat> you are assuming there indeed is a spec, and that's hilarious
<mcrod> you know what I mean
<mcrod> i don’t see why that’s hilarious
<geist> the last time i tried to use amd drivers on linux it was a disaster. crashing the card is not *so* bad on windows becuase it just restarts, but crashing xorg every time the driver goes down takes out your whole session
<heat> if there's no public spec i'd wager it's pretty likely that there's no spec at all
<geist> but to be fair i think that was a good 10 years ago. may be more stable now
<zid> yea amd is one of the ones where sometimes they're fairly close to nvidia, other times they're a dumpsterfire
<heat> just like there's (AFAIK) no NTFS spec for the windows teams
<zid> intel is pretty consistently "meh" but sometimes have a shocker
<mcrod> AMD is more open with the Linux people at least
<zid> nvidia are fairly consistently "well, it works, but"
<heat> mcrod, it's not.
<Ermine> geist: writing this from amd-powered machine. I have almost no issues with it. It's old though (rx470)
<mcrod> are you kidding me
<heat> AMD publishes huge blobs of firmware and auto-generated header files
<mcrod> Ermine: i had an RX 570 way back yonder
<zid> I've seen some of those headers they're great
<mcrod> Linux was okay on it
<geist> Ermine: are you using the amd proprietary drivers?
<zid> a bunch of names are santitized
<heat> it's not better than the nvidia open kernel gpu shit except that nvidia wrote it to be portable between OSes in their own style
<geist> nvrm!
<Ermine> No, I'm using in-tree amdgpu driver
<zid> nvidia *did* try to drop an in-kernel driver but it was like 20MB of HAL to make it run the windows driver :p
<geist> ah yeah that's probably pretty stable. i'm talking about the official drivers from the company
<zid> so nowwe just do that but out of tree
<geist> it was historically unstable on linux
<Ermine> heat: as a programmer, it's probably bad
<Ermine> heat: as a customer, idc how those drivers are structured, workitude is what is important for me
<zid> Expecting nvidia to provide enough support to allow you to write 'proper' drivers is a *big* ask that would probably cost them literally billions
<heat> yeah and nvidia works fine for most customers
<zid> because it's very unlikely even *they* know how much of their shit even works
<geist> i've had to deal with nvrm before, it's their OS abstraction layer. basically just imagine 400 something calls to completely abstract everything from the host os
<zid> a few people will know a few parts of it
<geist> and also allow some amount of it to be proxied over an ioctl/etc so you can write the same driver in user space or kernel spae
<Ermine> I cannot judge for the whole thing, but for me, amd works better than nvidia
<zid> a lot of the information will jus tbe encoded in various employees' heads
<heat> like AMD actually publishes no docs for their hardware, just code, but GPL ponies eat it up becuz muh linux muh GPL
<geist> in a past life i had to write a nvrm shim for LK to load an nvidia driver. it was not fun
<heat> haha
<zid> i'd make jon mayo do it, he seems like the person to ask
<geist> basically had a .o file from nvidia to intiialize one of their mobile gpus, and needed to provide enough nvrm for it to boot and initialize the gpu to just show a dang logo, for a bootloader
<Ermine> I guess intel publishes both code and docs
<heat> john mayonaise
<zid> like the mayo clinic, where they treat people by rubbing mayonnaise on them
<Ermine> but, here's the next step: docs are not enough
<heat> they're not
<geist> what was even worse was their .o file relied on a bunch of jam tables that you needed for specific cores. it wasn't even compiled for a particular core, there was some sort of 'oh this is a X, here, take this binary blob and feed it to the driver'
<zid> They have a huge engineering staff they pay millions of dollars to answer *precisely* the questions a 3rd party would need to ask
<zid> but for themselves
<zid> cus it's their job
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<geist> so it was multiple levels abstracted. the nvrm had this whole notion of abstract enum based handles to particular gpios and whatnot, which is dynamically redirected, based on these tables you feed it
<heat> providing comprehensive docs for super complex hardware is really hard so it turns out most info just lives on people's heads
<heat> or spread out docs i assume
<geist> which makes sens.e one of the reasons their driver can work with multiple familes of gpus
<heat> maybe even a bug tracker!
<zid> "hey, how do the command buffers act on kepler when an underrun happens during irq starvation?" is some guy's full time job for 2 weeks after it gets asked internally :P
<zid> expecting them to provide that *externally* just means doubling all their staff
<geist> so basically even their own driver has some sort of layering where you feed the bottom layer effectively some sort of device tree from the upper layers, once its detected which kind of core it is
<geist> in my case i was providing the bottom layer (nvrm) so i had to parse enough of that shit to make it work. it was no fun. i'm having ptsd flashbacks now
<heat> hahaha
<heat> i mean all their drivers drive a bunch of hardware isnt it?
<heat> assuming this is tegra, tegra's driver handles a whole bunch of SoCs
<Ermine> So, conundrum is how to have good open gpu drivers
<zid> You don't, basically
<zid> It's like asking how to have a good open source desktop environment
<zid> it's an intractable problem
<geist> yeah i mean to a certain extent it's fairly elegant and probably solves the problem fairly well, it's just a *lot* of layers of abstraction
<heat> you can have good open gpu drivers but it involves you starting from the ground up
<geist> and i guess they really want to avoid having a separate .dll for every variant of every device
<heat> switching from closed to open is not very profitable
<heat> sometimes legally impossible/impossibly hard
<zid> nvidia has big internal issues with legally impossible
<heat> yeah i mean, intel too with its firmware stuff
<geist> yah instant you license something and then rely on it you're hosed
<zid> trying to clear everything at this point would probably cost more legal fees than they have money
<heat> "when is memory training code getting opened?" never
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<zid> even if it all checked out fine
<heat> when's memory training code getting rewritten from the ground up and opened? never
<zid> just the process of asking the lawyers about every single thing would take a black hole amount of gold bars
<geist> i remember being very very sad the beos source code was never released in the early 2000s when Access ended up owning it
<zid> that's why the amd stuff is just.. sanitizd
<zid> that's much easier to deal with
<geist> from what i heard it got >< this close, but the legal issues were all of it
<mcrod> my cat looks like it’s part of a vinyl cover art https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/MezzxXvo/IMG_0455.JPG
<Ermine> At this point, by open I mean 'open but probably closed firmwares'
<zid> #define HWREG7 0x14782
<geist> since there was some copyright intel, etc in the kernel, and someone would have to track all that down
<heat> AMD and NVIDIA (now) just moved all the legally dubious bits to firmware
<geist> and it was probably no sweat, just cost >$0 dollars
<geist> like access themselves had no issue with the open sourcing, it was useless to them but it was nonzero effort to do it
<geist> mcrod: oh yeah it is caturday
<Ermine> So, alright then, have closed fw and keep your secrets
<heat> moving all the garbage to a separate coprocessor is actually a genius solution
<heat> you can open things on the other end and help those people out, and still not break/rewrite shit/break the law
<Ermine> it is easier to establish communism than to get those secrets disclosed
<geist> and t's really not like they invented that, pretty much all mobile socs have piles of secondary processors now, each with theor own firmware. lots of times you're basically seeing the org chart of the company that makes the soc
<geist> each division has their own core(s) and their own software stack
<zid> one big reason they did that I heard was just to make bringup internal
<zid> so you could just have the card "work" in clusters
<heat> Ermine, even communism had their own firmware (politburo)
<zid> without having to keep drivers up to date and shit
<geist> oh speaking of chips and cheese has a pretty interesting writeup about Hexagon (Qualcomms DSP). it's more whacky than i though
<geist> VLIW lives!
<heat> wdym ia64 is very alive
<bslsk05> ​chipsandcheese.com: Qualcomm’s Hexagon DSP, and now, NPU – Chips and Cheese
<Ermine> heat: communism implies no state, hence no politburo
<geist> also has a whacky thing i hadn't thought of: it has imprecise exceptions, since it allows the instructions to commit first before delivering them
<geist> which keeps it from having to need to unwind everything. i wonder what that looks like in reality
<zid> how are you going to make your communism work without a politburo
<geist> via VLIW zid
<zid> ahh
<zid> replace money with large instruction words
<geist> with a blockchain too
<zid> In the picture
<geist> too many words
<heat> we dont want large instruction words
<heat> we want very large instruction words
<heat> it's not the same thing
<Ermine> support elbrus :D
<heat> i think we should lift sanctions because vliw
<heat> vliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
<moon-child> V
<moon-child> E
<moon-child> R
<moon-child> Y
<moon-child> L
<moon-child> A
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<moon-child> G
<moon-child> E
<moon-child> I
<moon-child> N
<moon-child> S
<moon-child> T
<moon-child> R
<moon-child> U
<moon-child> C
<moon-child> T
<moon-child> I
<moon-child> O
<moon-child> N
<moon-child> W
<moon-child> O
<moon-child> R
<moon-child> D
<niceperson> /kb moon-child spam
<heat> please dont SPAM THE CH
<heat> V
<heat> E
<heat> R
<heat> Y
<heat> L
<heat> A
<heat> R
<heat> G
<heat> E
<heat> I
<heat> N
<heat> S
<heat> T
<heat> R
<heat> U
<heat> C
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<heat> I
<heat> O
<heat> N
<heat> W
<heat> O
<heat> R
<heat> D
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<zid> heat
<moon-child> heat
<heat> zid moon-child
<zid> just how very large *is* your instruction word?
<zid> I hear you bragging but
<zid> what does it mean
<zid> 9"?
<moon-child> you might think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just _peanuts_ to my instruction word
<heat> zid, i didn't say i had a very large instruction word
<heat> i said i wanted instruction words that indeed are very large
<heat> i've just tested dump-guest-memory and hey it kinda works nicely
<heat> useful
<Ermine> are 4-byte x86 words large
<heat> x86 instruction words are not 4 bytes
<Ermine> Huh, I thought some are
<gog> variable length encodingggg
<heat> x86 instructions are between 1 and 15 bytes
<Ermine> > 15 bytes
<Ermine> so we have some of vliw
<heat> i posted a 15 byte nop the other day
<Ermine> nopnopnopnopnop
<moon-child> x86 can have a little vliw, as a treat
<bslsk05> ​gist.github.com: gist:4d120402be24140a7cb5b3b8d7ead2fc · GitHub
<heat> in a single function, in a row!
<heat> aw this is some libzstd __asm__ magic :(
<Ermine> woah
<heat> onyx atm can only patch up to 5-byte nops
<Ermine> how come?
<zid> laziness
<Ermine> fix it IMMEDIATELY
<zid> ineptitude
<zid> take your pic
<heat> it's trivial to add, i just have no immediate need for it
<heat> take a pic? a selfie?
<zid> yes
<heat> Ermine, also it turns out most of my patching points are at most 5 bytes
<heat> because the largest jmps/calls are literally 5 bytes
<Ermine> are lists.gnu.org down?
<heat> i hope so
<bslsk05> ​gist.github.com: cliff_threadsafe_inline_caching.md · GitHub
<moon-child> lol
<heat> but intel explicitly disavows this :(
<heat> you need to 👏SER👏IA👏LIZE👏
<zid> bloody germans
<heat> actually i have no idea how to do safe code patching in userspace
<heat> hopefully without signals
<gog> i'm serializing
<heat> grog
<gog> heato
<heat> bugzilla
* gog emits a laugh track that increases in volume steadily
<zid> just patch it ATOMICALLY
<zid> done
<Ermine> lists.gnu.org works through vpn, so
<zid> Pencils? In my pencilcase? it's more likely than you think
<mcrod> DICKS!
<Ermine> wat
<niceperson> so what's the sanctioned way of patching
<Ermine> why do you patch
<heat> avoid branches
<niceperson> PERFORMANCE
<heat> or sometimes you have no choice if its shit like patching the lock prefix in/out
<heat> niceperson, the intel sanctioned way is to serialize all CPUs on a patch_in_progress flag, then execute a serializing instruction
<Ermine> So in kernel you see that you're going to have a branch and you change the code to have no branching?
<zid> I mainly use it to eliminate function pointers
<heat> you should look at my static keys and the associated commits
<zid> cus function pointers can dick my pencilcase
* niceperson burps
<sham1> That burp was pessimal
<niceperson> heat: where is the intel sanctioned way described
<heat> 8.1.3
<niceperson> what does amd say
<heat> Ermine, so a trivial idea behind code patching is that instead of "if (cpu_has_feature_a()) insn_a(); else insn_b();"
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<heat> you have insn_a and insn_b in the same IP, and you patch the location to have the correct instruction
<heat> then you can have more advanced usage like annotating call sites/jump sites and then patching those out, or patching them to point somewhere else
<heat> niceperson, no idea
<Ermine> ic
<heat> i'm fairly sure this is the technique you should use and that most people use
<heat> Ermine, my static_key stuff allows me to have ZERO COST branches for shit that never changes/changes regularly
<heat> where i keep the likely case inline in the function and the unlikely case at the end, with a jmp. the common case has a nop instead of a jmp, so you never pay the cost of branching or jumping
<heat> if you look at your Local Onyx(tm) Build you'll notice some int3's where the branches/nops go, in those functions
<heat> that's also how i do ZERO-COST tracepoints
<Ermine> Like in kernel/arch/x86_64/boot.S, line 289?
<heat> no
<Ermine> ok
<heat> see save_fpu's disassembly for a simple (although PESSIMAL) example
<heat> (pessimal because it's just instruction replacement, could be done directly with code patching instead of a static branch)
<Ermine> Lq
<Ermine> Oops, EWINDOW
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<bslsk05> ​www.gamers.org: Quake/work logs
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<netbsduser`> on nvidia and linux, i'm not sure what all the fuss is about
<netbsduser`> they publish a driver for gnu/linux as well as freebsd and solaris
<netbsduser`> i understand the linux people think it should be part of the linux tree but it's a portable driver and it's not gnu/linux so it doesn't belong in there
<geist> oh well ther eyou go. now you have every possible os in the planet
<netbsduser`> i would appreciate if they published a driver for my OS too but what can a man do
<geist> but you're right, they do have freebsd drivers. i thought they stopped that a while back
<netbsduser`> reportedly freebsd is quite favoured by nvidia engineers
<geist> if nothing else because it's probably not changing out from underneath them as much
<gog> that's because freebsd is good
<geist> may be a good fairly stable testing environment
<netbsduser`> they are quite opinionated and are also known to have technical objections to wayland
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<moon-child> nvidia on freebsd lacks drm and cuda
<moon-child> hard to say it's favoured
<mcrod> gog hi
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<gog> hi mcrod
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<mcrod> how are you gog
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