klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<geist> hello
<Mutabah> o/
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<Ermine> ucs-2 != utf-16?
<klange> UCS-2 can only represent codepoints that fit in two bytes - surrogate pairs are not part of its encoding.
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<heat> sadly you can't have \EFI\BOOT\BOOT🍆😛.EFI
<Ermine> mojo programmers go nuts because of this
<mcrod`> hi
<heat> no
<Ermine> no to who?
<heat> the hi guy
<mcrod`> what if i said bye instead
<kazinsal> denied
<kazinsal> where my good girl gog at
<zid> I'd clap
<zid> Like an american
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<kazinsal> no proof you're the right good girl, sorry
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<gog> kazinsal: meow
<zid> pants
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* totally-not-mjg burps
<totally-not-mjg> if nobody benchmarks openbsd, is it even slow?
<Cindy> yes
<Cindy> according to the latest (no) benchmark, openbsd starts up in 0 seconds
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<Ermine> totally-not-mjg: benchmark openbsd
<totally-not-mjg> jokin, someone is kind of doing it
<Ermine> Just Do It!
<Ermine> Wtf miscrosoft is doing: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/linux/install
<mcrod`> someone should make a benchmark tool called Just Benchmark It!
<bslsk05> ​learn.microsoft.com: How to download and install Linux | Microsoft Learn
<mcrod`> Ermine: 20 years ago we would’ve said bill gates was on drugs
<Ermine> Did MS take pity on linux and decide to make YotLD themselves?
<gog> don't install linux
<gog> there are enough linux users
<gog> use Haiku
<totally-not-mjg> haiku reminds me of serenityos
<totally-not-mjg> looks like they are doing a good job over there
<totally-not-mjg> except that's precisely the kind of hobby os i would not consider contributing to even for kicks
<totally-not-mjg> which is kind of funny imo
<totally-not-mjg> they are very focused on making a desktop windows 9x look & feel os
<totally-not-mjg> modulo the crashes
<gog> yeah the UI could do with modernizing
<gog> unless you mean serenityos
<gog> in which case they'll never modernize
<mcrod`> gog
<mcrod`> i want a pet
<zid> buy a snail
<Ermine> gog: their look-and-feel is one of serenityOS's purposes. And I like this style btw
* gog petpet mcrod`
<gog> i think i prefer the modern more flat-looking style
* mcrod` prr
<gog> i kinda cringe when i look back at keramik or something that kde used to default to
<zid> I want w98 back
<zid> but with the other file chooser actually
<zid> 98 used the 3.1 one which was bad, the xp one was gooder
<gog> plastik was a bit of a step foward design-wise
<gog> but too 1999 MacOS
<zid> MMC for life
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<bslsk05> ​redirect -> www.reddit.com: Reddit - Dive into anything
<zid> oops
<bslsk05> ​redirect -> www.reddit.com: Reddit - Dive into anything
<zid> I fucking hate that reddit switched to internal hosting that doesn't give you images
<zid> imageshack.us all over again
<GeDaMo> That's the problem with relying on other people :|
<netbsduser``> the focus on look-and-feel strikes me as odd
<netbsduser``> until quite recently most things were very themeable
<netbsduser``> now that people have to beg just for a "dark mode", look and feel is seen more as an inherent attribute of software
<zid> dark mode beggers = telephone users
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<zid> because phones haven't figured out how to measure ambient light and adjust their backlight setting to be less than "1400 suns"
<zid> shit should look like a sheet of paper, not like staring into a lamp
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<nortti> I have some old monochrome display phones that are comfortable to look at in the dark yet stay visible in the sun, but never seen a colour screen that's able to do that
<zid> The problem is just contrast, full sun is a *lot* of light to compete with
<zid> so they have to be sun-like when outdoors
<zid> then people take them indoors with the same backlight setting, then complain that the *website* is white
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<gog> it's not really possible to do that just with the nature of the display. the paper is always going to reflect ambient brightness, the screen always has to be brighter than ambient light
<gog> not by much though
<gog> and the minimum brightness could be lower
<gog> my computer can go pretty low, idk why my phone can't match the gamma curve
<zid> It probably can it just can't be configured to
<zid> My monitor's brightness is set to.. 28, out of 100
<zid> with dynamic contrast off, which is like, a 10x multi
<zid> so roughly 28/1000
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<kof123> > 20 years ago we would’ve said bill gates was on drugs no, when two people constantly fight love is in the air :D
<kof123> i am not trying to paint with a broad brush, but this was predictable somewhat
<kof123> where else could open source (as opposed to fsf diehards -- again, not trying to stereotype, but broadly...) possibly go?
<kof123> they had to make some kind of deal, somehow
<kof123> neither was going to just vanish
<kof123> to clarify "ms loves linux" was a marketing campaign, lest you think i am being too mean. marketing invents its own storylines lol
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<kof123> marketing had no choice. what else could they do? 1) linux is cancer 2) ignore 3) try to be friends broadly, what else could they do?
<kof123> they already had tried 1) and 2) lol
<kof123> 3) was the only option remaining lol
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<kof123> i will yield to mjg. but 100% of nothing, or try to get some small % of the "market". it makes sense from that angle. they aren't trying to convince the diehards, they want "moderates" perhaps.
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<totally-not-mjg> embrace & extinguish innit
<totally-not-mjg> buying competition to kill it is not a new idea
<totally-not-mjg> right now bill and steve don't have a linux distro, but they have poettering
<totally-not-mjg> it is a matter of time before you get more involved integration between windows and linux
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<mcrod`> i don’t think linux is going anywhere
<totally-not-mjg> no, but ms got their fingers in the ecosystem
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<totally-not-mjg> thanks to red hat monopolizing one of the aspects
<totally-not-mjg> and then stealing the main person behind it
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* totally-not-mjg burps
<totally-not-mjg> kof123: key is that what drives linux deployment in the real world (and linux vability as a commercial platform) is not some basement dwelling neckbeards with arch linux
<totally-not-mjg> it's a bunch of people in suits signing a deal for a project
<heat> whats with the arch linux slander youfucking goblin
<totally-not-mjg> take it is heat, arch best distro fuckin great innit
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<heat> yes
<heat> it's not a mega patched pseudo-RHEL kernel
<totally-not-mjg> it's not pseudo-RHEL
<totally-not-mjg> unless you mean centos :O
<heat> fedora is pseudo-RHEL
<heat> it's a RHEL wannabe for poor people
<totally-not-mjg> fedora is to-be-rhel
<totally-not-mjg> or at least was
<heat> ubuntu is also pseudo-RHEL
<heat> or better, a fedora clone
<heat> what's with the microsoft linux slander
<totally-not-mjg> what slander
<totally-not-mjg> all i see is DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEV^WFUCK OFF STEVE
* Ermine is poor
<heat> E&E
<heat> microsoft loves linux because linux makes them a lot of money
<heat> money that would not be made if they did not love it
<totally-not-mjg> windows is choice
<totally-not-mjg> here is the funny bit
<heat> windows constitutes a tiny part of the revenue pie
<totally-not-mjg> commercial viability of a softawre project is driven by existence of people who use it, but who don't have the expertise to even make an informed choice about competition
<totally-not-mjg> this includes professional setting
<totally-not-mjg> basically people who treat it as an integral part of doing something
<heat> commercial viability of a software project is driven by it not being linux desktop
<heat> if it is linux desktop, it's dead
<totally-not-mjg> nooo
<totally-not-mjg> ey heat
<totally-not-mjg> when i was your age
<totally-not-mjg> commercial unixes were still alive and mostly viable
<totally-not-mjg> but it was already obvious linux is going to whack them
<totally-not-mjg> so during that period there were numerous flamewars
<totally-not-mjg> TRUE FUCKING UNIX systems vs HIPPIE LINUX
<totally-not-mjg> when Sun announced they are going to open solaris
<totally-not-mjg> soy^H^Hunboys started proclaiming linux will be dead immediately
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<totally-not-mjg> fuckin' everyone is going to switch to one true system now
<totally-not-mjg> funny how not only that did not work out, but oracle closed it (:d)
<heat> i wish
<heat> i fuckin hate this hippie commie linux unix
<totally-not-mjg> ya linux shite system bring back Tru64
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<Ermine> heat: I'm not sure that windows brings them only a tiny part
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<heat> it does
<heat> if you google them numberz you'll find around 10-20%
<Ermine> little bit more than 20%
<heat> azure + office easily dwarfs windows
<Ermine> Not tiny
<totally-not-mjg> ye peoplez totally look at the available office-like suites and make an informed choice
<heat> also worth pointing out that it's more likely than not that the windows revenue is dominated by preinstalls
<heat> totally-not-mjg, yes youf ucking idiot
<heat> unless you want people to use openfuckingoffice or librefuckingoffice
<totally-not-mjg> take it easy russel
<heat> al viro
<Ermine> Pre-install is how they won the market in the first place
<totally-not-mjg> you must have missed the part where there are other SOFTWARES out there like google progs
<totally-not-mjg> people just use what they use
<heat> google's office suite is entirely in deh clowd
<totally-not-mjg> and in particular in older companies they fucked themslves into a corner
<totally-not-mjg> with legacy xls and doc files
<totally-not-mjg> which they comically mismanage
<totally-not-mjg> which again i'm confident was an informed choice
<heat> hold up let me write some excel macros in VBA
<Ermine> Also windows-only fonts
<totally-not-mjg> GeDaMo: no way mat,e every single user knows the landscape
<heat> what are you on about?
<heat> what's your suggestion for the ms office users? use gnuplot?
<totally-not-mjg> at this point i don't have one becaues that market is too far gone
<heat> google sheets is good but not an excel replacement, libreoffice lmao, openoffice lmao^2, iWork is good but macOS-only
<totally-not-mjg> i am saying it got there because LOL
<totally-not-mjg> and not because of great pragmatic choices
<Ermine> onlyoffice (don't forget to enable vsyscalls lmao)
<heat> onlyfans (don't forget to enable incognito mode lmao)
<totally-not-mjg> incognito prevents your ISP from knowing who you are #trutsme
<totally-not-mjg> you get a cloak like clark kent
<heat> if you want a cloak just ask sortie
<heat> i rep sortix colors in linux channels
<Ermine> heat: and vpn
<Ermine> heat: gimme onyx cloak
<Ermine> plz
<totally-not-mjg> onlyx
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<heat> hey google, how do i get an illumos cloak on irc
<Ermine> Also, google for alteroffice for grand LMAO
<kof123> ah, so dark mode is part if incognito mode cloaking, i see
<kof123> *of
<totally-not-mjg> now that you mention it i don't know if there is an illumos kloac
<heat> ~heat@openbsd/ok-heat-at
<totally-not-mjg> i would use a realtheo cloak
<Cindy> hey google, how do i get a custom cloak in libera
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<totally-not-mjg> custom cloak added to your shipping list
<Ermine> Reading through openbad 7.4 notes: > dt(4) utrace(2) > Allow unveil(2)ed programs to dump core(5) > a new vmm(4) ioctl(2).
<Ermine> AAAAAAAAA
<heat> AAAA(7)AAAA(7), see dns(7) and getaddrinfo(3) for more information
<totally-not-mjg> you should enjoy their release notes, literally for nobody
<Ermine> Dumb question, what is PHY
<totally-not-mjg> that's NIC crap
<heat> physical layer
<totally-not-mjg> (what's NIC)
<heat> Ermine, btw theo emailed me, do you want me to complain about man(1)page references
<Ermine> I don't care this much
<mcrod`> heat
<mcrod`> hi
<heat> no
<mcrod`> yes
<mcrod`> wow wtf strict aliasing is disabled by default using clang-cl?
<mcrod`> interesting
<Ermine> Not a single word about posix_spawn, so
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<geist> okay lets be nice to other oses, remember that
<geist> this is about hobby os development, dont cast stones
<totally-not-mjg> Ermine: posix_spawn was already added in *previous* relesae
<totally-not-mjg> erm, waitid
<totally-not-mjg> which i presume you meant
<geist> i the mid 2000s i used to run openbsd on an old sparcstation 2 with an extra ethernet card as my firewall
<geist> it was already far obsolete hardware, but sufficient to firewall at the time. i figured, hey use your script kiddie rootkit on this!
<totally-not-mjg> enterprise-grade
<geist> but in the early 2000s openbsd had a nice firewall
<geist> compared to toerh offerings at least
<totally-not-mjg> of pf is nice to configure
<totally-not-mjg> linux has a history of weirdly shite tooling
<Ermine> totally-not-mjg: no, I'm talking about posix_spawn and their implementation is PESSIMAL
<totally-not-mjg> Ermine: ok, that i am aware of
<heat> PESSIMAL
<heat> it's literally not pessimal
<heat> "Bad to a maximal extent; worst."
<heat> which almost by definition it is not, hence, not pessimal
<totally-not-mjg> ey heat
<totally-not-mjg> you remember that video you like to link about perfection
<Ermine> Okay, okay, it's shitty
<heat> no?
<totally-not-mjg> consider this imperfect usage of the word
<bslsk05> ​'In Defense of Inefficiency' by Zoe Bee (01:09:14)
<totally-not-mjg> oh ye
<geist> oh that looks interesting
<geist> but yes, the essence of engineering is doing what you need to do with the limited amount of resources you have
<heat> that's something someone LAZY would say
<bslsk05> ​cowlark.com: vbccz
<kof123> i don't know all vbcc licensing details, but ...you can target z-machine :D
<bslsk05> ​'Was (Not Was) "Hello Dad, I'm in Jail" (1987) (HD)' by Holy Zoo (00:01:26)
<kof123> vbccz was not related to any chat, just found that the other day
<gog> meow
<kof123> https://nadvsh.sourceforge.net more seriously, someone like me, that could be an interesting "bytecode" maybe lol vbcc i assume is pretty lightweight too, for jitting lol anyways...
<bslsk05> ​nadvsh.sourceforge.net: New Adventure Shell
<kof123> i don't think i will do that, but crossed my mind lol
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<kof123> with "bytecode" it is tempting to start saying "this type of process, uses these instructions" so it is tempting to just have different types of "processes" and "instructions" that implement various languages
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<kof123> it would be, like each type of process, is a subsystem for a particular language/VM. i'm not sure that is a good idea, but it sort of puts languages on an "equal level" that they are all just implemented with their own particular bytecode instructions lol
<mcrod`> i’m going crazy
<mcrod`> fuck MSSQL
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<gog> hi i'm porting nettiers to efcore
<gog> fuck everything
<gog> fuck this leaky-ass abstraction
<gog> nettiers, not efcore
<gog> efcore is pretty tight-ass
<heat> why does everyone always complain here
<gog> because if i complain irl people will know that i'm not the chill and easygoing person i pretend to be
<heat> lawful good IRL gog vs chaotic neutral IRC gog
<gog> yuh
<gog> anyhow it's 5 and i'm gonna go home
<gog> byee
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<mcrod`> heat
<mcrod`> what else are we supposed to do
<heat> write operatin system
<mcrod`> i used to be *far, far worse.*
<mcrod`> that’s why i have half of the friends i used to have
<mcrod`> :(
<heat> hello geist i'm in jail
<heat> mcrod`, yeah i mean most people do not like negativity so it does put people off
<mcrod`> well it’s not targeted at anyone
<heat> still
<heat> it gives off the wrong vibes
<mcrod`> i get it though
<mcrod`> trust me on that
<heat> and tbf i have struggled in the past with that, but as I've grown I realized being such a cunt is just bad for me and for everyone around me
<heat> also nothing is that serious we're all going to die one day
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<Ermine> where can I also whine about stuff?
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<geist> Right we should just find a balance
<geist> But yeah bad vibes put people off
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<heat> i've just had a particularly interesting exchange with theo and his adversarialness left a sour taste in my mouth :(
<heat> <heat> also nothing is that serious we're all going to die one day
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<kof123> what would mel do? > Mel loved the RPC-4000 because he could optimize his code: that is, locate instructions on the drum so that just as one finished its job, the next would be just arriving at the “read head” and available for immediate execution.
<kof123> it is all about timing. story of mel circa 1600 > The Demon Armostose happens by suddenly cutting the ripe branches, & making them fall into the fire to continue it & nourish it with its permanent radical substance, until the fairy torch has been lit therein that shall guide the Lovers in the obscure alley that leads to the residence of the fair Olocliree. > & this rebirth will be the pure substance, that threading itself in the Bou
<kof123> by the blood of the dismembered Lion, shall graft the tree from which will spring the worm from which shall be made the Phoenix
<kof123> just time it so the demon helps you lol
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<SophiaNya> time to never type in here again and just watch the shenanigans /s
<zid> I'll have you know we only do bullshittery
<zid> and hijinks
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