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<zid>
the pc port for mgs2/mgs3 is bad :(
<zid>
no graphics options, at all
<geist>
i kinda want to write a neural net from scratch
<geist>
just to do it
<zid>
It's really easy if you don't want any speedhax
<zid>
couple of float arrays, and a FUNCTION
<zid>
I recommend tom7's functions.
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<geist>
yah basically
<geist>
always fun to start from the bottom up to really grok the basics
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<zid>
did you see tom7's functions?
<geist>
i have not, but i'll take a look in a bit
<moon-child>
i thought neural nets is just gemm(gemm())
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<kof123>
> Here's a question, why did we decide to use the word "virtual" for simulated versions of things? > Why not "imaginary" or some other word like maybe simulated? that is roughly basically a philosophy question, whether mind or matter is "real" and similar
<kof123>
ch ch ch...conway's law lol
<kof123>
http://dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Dict2&Database=*&Query=substance 1913: That which underlies all outward manifestations; the permanent subject or cause of phenomena, whether material or spiritual; essence 2006: the real physical matter "law" > SUBSTANCE, evidence. That which is essential; it is used in opposition to form. ; then you have to define "form" like imaginary ideal forms, or "form" as in "concrete"; ditt
<kof123>
or "essence" and "spiritual"
<bslsk05>
dict.org: dict.org- substance
<kof123>
in the short-term, it is easier just to brush aside
<kof123>
because as that shows, already 3 conflicting definitions lol
<kof123>
one "old" one "modern" another for "law" lol
<kof123>
"meta" has the same problem. "between" or: A prefix meaning at a level above --- so which way is "above"? from that 1913, we already had a split between "manifestations" and "essence". which one is "above" -- do we go with the 1913 definition, or the 2006 lol do we go with plato's "ideal forms" or the law definition of 'form' etc. lol
<kof123>
just pick one and roll with it is much simpler
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<kof123>
you can say sw simulates hw, or is a higher level of hardware. but people were 'computers' once. you could argue hw just simulates people manually calculating. and then other people will argue "biological computing" or similar.
<sparklysara>
is a girl sw or hw ?
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<kof123>
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Imp_equipment in the beginning was quivering blob > It takes an imp to coax this spear to its full poten—ew! Why is it all slimy? > always fun to start from the bottom up to really grok the basics i yield to geis t on that, that comes later
<bslsk05>
finalfantasy.fandom.com: Imp equipment | Final Fantasy Wiki | Fandom
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<Luci-ghoule>
who put a markov chain in here
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<mcrod`>
hi
<kof123>
Luci-ghoule: markov chain is what people call things that are older that they don't understand. it just shows ignorance. girl is malformed, older things was undifferentiated at first
<kof123>
so what term should be used for "undifferentiated" ?
<kof123>
since human terms fail
<kof123>
if you purposely screw up the vocabulary and definitions, do not complain that you cannot communicate
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<kof123>
ok, you failed to provide a term. so thanks for demonstrating conway's law lol
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<kof123>
i gave 3 definitions, and explained how they differ. failing to pick one, not defining your terms, and then acting as though that is "true" is a strawman.
<sham1>
Who are you talking to
<kof123>
Luci-ghoule.
<kof123>
so a legitimate discussion, you would say which one of those 3 "markov chain" falls under, or provide another definition. it is not my job to read your "mind"
<Luci-ghoule>
I have no idea what is going on here, and I'm busy with other things to try to make sense of this
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<Luci-ghoule>
but a markov chain is a probabilistic model, I'm sure you can look them up if you're curious--it was mostly a (perhaps incorrect) guess since it seemed like just a string of random tokens vaguely prompted by other users' lines
<kof123>
sure, but you still didn't define which of the actual topic at hand that falls under. anyways.......identity nonsense attacks rather than legitimate discussion, that was what i was upset about
<kof123>
i will wrap it up
<kof123>
the point is "computer scientists" pulled their definitions from whatever "philosophy" they inherited, consciously or unconsciously. "computer science" is not a field unto itself, nor is anything else
<kof123>
they did not invent language, and they are constrained by whatever terms they must use to communicate with other fields
<kof123>
and in kappa's case, he was a hieroglyphic lol so he predates all their written stuff lol
<kof123>
so is a useful "word" to escape modernity if you wish to go to an earlier "philosophy" lol
<kof123>
apologies for being obscure lol <done>
<Luci-ghoule>
no attack on character intended, even if it might've come across that way--that was my bad..
<puck>
the issue is you're just not very comprehensible
<puck>
like, i'm not sure there's many people that can read your messages and actually understand the point you're trying to make
<zid>
did you find any of those people yet?
<puck>
my best assumption now is the bit about the final fantasy imp equipment may have been a mis-paste, and you just didn't realise
<puck>
which i'd say is a pretty bad way to communicate
<puck>
and the rest is .. somewhat badly formatted, which is reminsicent of the way basic spambots would be trained on specifically formatted text
<puck>
anyways that's enough being serious
<puck>
"girl is malformed" same
<zid>
puck you might wanna check the wikipedia article on disorganized speech
<puck>
zid: yeah that's reasonable, tho i think i'd do similar ranting (on other topics), but i'm a bit more used to putting thoughts/sentences onto the screen
<mcrod`>
hi
<zid>
my internet has been fucky all night, in other news.
<sham1>
hi
<GeDaMo>
zid: I have a problem with mine too; crackly landline phone and the net drops if I pick up the receiver
<zid>
dsl?
<GeDaMo>
I think It probably started last week with that storm
<GeDaMo>
Yeah
<zid>
found your problem
<sham1>
What year is it
<zid>
mine's a network issue, isp is rolling out new hw and now I am on docsis 3.1
<zid>
and they keep apparently playing with things on their end
<GeDaMo>
Ah, your advanced technology is so much better than mine :P
<zid>
are you able to distinguish it from magic?
<GeDaMo>
Only when it's working :P
<zid>
hey, magic doesn't have a 100% cast rate
<mcrod`>
so
<mcrod`>
somehow, my new machine will have 128GB of RAM
<zid>
I think the how for that is rather easy to understand
<mcrod`>
work machine
<mcrod`>
someone higher up is giving us... something.
<GeDaMo>
Is this one of those situations where the manager's machine had to be the highest spec in the building even though they mainly use it for solitaire? :P
<GeDaMo>
And now they're done with it, it goes to someone who might be able to take advantage
<mcrod`>
maybe
<kof123>
> why did we decide to use the word "virtual" the original question was that, so ...it is buried in whatever definitions were floating around and existed prior before "computers". any answer will require going prior to "computers" since computer people did not invent the word, that is all.
<sham1>
Words can have multiple meanings despite common usage changing
<sham1>
I don't see what the problem is with using the word "virtual" for computer stuff
<zid>
rewind() is a good syscall, it's a reference to.. reel to reel tape recorders
<kof123>
:/ agree sham, i was just saying it can't be answered in modern tongue ^^^
<kof123>
so you have to find whatever "original" ala that case, the tape recorder ol
<kof123>
i'm not....particularly interested in such issues, it was just a time where gorgon asked a question and CONWAY'S LAW is the only answer
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<heat>
zid, sir, i'll sidestep your entire argument by saying that rewind is not a syscall
<heat>
you are, therefore, incorrect. get owned n00b
<Luci-ghoule>
be kind, rewind() ?
* Luci-ghoule
. o O ( always rewind your files to the start before closing them )
<sham1>
And waste cycles!?
<sham1>
Are you also the kind of person to deallocate everything on exit?
<heat>
least wasteful C++ user
<sham1>
RAII is pessimal
<kof123>
if there is a real practical example, then i would say OO always becomes animism. file.rewind() you just point around the room and tell inanimate objects to do things lol
<heat>
sham1, TO BE FAIR there's a whole narrative around doing free() before returning from main
<heat>
that stems from not freeing shit being (IIRC) UB
<sham1>
Well, that is sort of what OO was made for. Sending messages to objects that represent "real" things
<heat>
so much that e.g lsan will cry if you return without freeing everything (and in fact, it's how lsan works)
<sham1>
heat: yes, and ASan will also complain
<heat>
ASAN has LSAN built-in
<heat>
(LSAN is just a tiny bit of ASAN you can selectively enable)
<sham1>
Well I just use whatever is the default
<heat>
ideally lsan would scan around in memory for references to live objects, like kmemleak
<sham1>
It might have to start to trace, like a tracing GC
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<zid>
heat: it's a syscall in my env
<zid>
are you assuming my gender?!
<heat>
sorry for assuming your kernel
<mcrod`>
i'm cold
<zid>
same, I turned the heating on
<heat>
mcrod`, fuck you
<mcrod`>
fuck you too
<mcrod`>
you're supposed to keep us warm
<heat>
and you're supposed to build LLVM
<heat>
you can't build LLVM, I can't keep you warm
<mcrod`>
i'm almost there
<mcrod`>
and I have to tell you
<mcrod`>
I still don't see the problem shipping precompiled toolchains so long as they were compiled on the appropriate systems
<mcrod`>
so long as their dependencies were linked statically outside of the libc, unless musl is used
<heat>
>so long as they were compiled on the appropriate systems
<heat>
there's the problem bud
<immibis>
you always start from precompiled toolchains unless you're #bootstrappable - they are starting from toggling in hand-compiled assembly
<immibis>
virtual function = function abstraction layer
<mcrod`>
as far as I'm concerned
<mcrod`>
glibc/musl are the only libcs worth caring about
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<mcrod`>
musl _barely_ counts
<zid>
yea
<zid>
i'm not even sure what it barely counts as though
<zid>
software?
<mcrod`>
what is musl's market share anyway
<zid>
'no'
<heat>
minimalism weirdos
<heat>
and containers
<mcrod`>
these are people that I don't care about
<zid>
wow, egotistical much
<zid>
The correct response is that *nobody* cares about those people :P
<mcrod`>
yes, I'm making a conscious decision to kind of not be 100% totally portable
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<mcrod`>
this is because I'm convinced it is actually impossible to do it, and thank god, linus knows it too
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<kof123>
well it is funny that there seems some overlap between tiny embedded stuff...and running "many" VMs, containers, whatever else, where they then might decide to be "slim"
<kof123>
portable means someone else wrote the unportable part already
<immibis>
^
<kof123>
and then eventually, "rump kernels" (netbsd speak) is perhaps a step beyond that
<heat>
abandon linux, use windows 11
<heat>
stop worrying about toolchains and glibc and musl and prebuilds. go play solitaire mate
<heat>
become truly happy
<sham1>
Microsoft enshittified solitaire
<vaxuser>
bunch of assholes
<zid>
calc is fucking garbage in w10
<zid>
did they make it useful in w11
<zid>
I installed windows xp's calc instead
<heat>
vista and 7 had this great game called purble place
<heat>
they also got 3D chess, for the nerds
<vaxuser>
now that you mention it they had a chess prog
<vaxuser>
now i kind of wonder what playing strength is it
<heat>
holy crap
<heat>
you are such a nerd
<vaxuser>
i *did* kiss a girl
<vaxuser>
once
<vaxuser>
i think around 2003
<mcrod`>
once, huh
<sham1>
Showoff
<vaxuser>
erm 2001
<mcrod`>
i've kissed way more than one.
<vaxuser>
mcrod`: and what were you doing on 9/11
<zid>
w10 is garbage, no spider solitaire
<mcrod`>
i was in 2nd grade thinking my entire family was dead
<heat>
oh wow look at this professional kisser mcrod`
<vaxuser>
mcchad amirite
<heat>
mcbryancantrill
<vaxuser>
i can tell you one thing: mccrod sure as hell did not work on a linux port to sparc
<immibis>
sham1: microsoft spent investor money to provide value to users, then used the user base to provide value to vendors, then scooped up all the value for itself? of solitaire?
<sham1>
Yes
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<immibis>
who are the vendors who users can reach through the solitaire platform?
<heat>
everyone can be reached through the solitaire platform
<heat>
while you dummies are microoptimizing "syscall" "routines" i'm busy playing purble place
<heat>
making fucking cakes babyyy
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<mcrod`>
i'm optimizing SAMEthing to use a sine wave LUT or a low order taylor series instead of sinf
<mcrod`>
what are you doing with your lives
<heat>
purble
<zid>
solitaire
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<kof123>
slimy bytecode
<mcrod`>
i think i'm going to get a burger today for lunch
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<immibis>
real programmers don't use syscalls, they write directly to I/O ports
<immibis>
real [some adjective] programmers use managed environments that inline their syscalls, real [other adjective] programmers write their own self-modifying code to do so
<immibis>
can't think of the right adjectives though
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<bslsk05>
corecursive.com: Software as a Reflection of Values With Bryan Cantrill - CoRecursive Podcast
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<kof123>
that title sounds a lot worse than it is
<immibis>
values = what you like
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<immibis>
close to metal but still portable and readable? C. power and every conceivable feature? C++. every conceivable feature and a managed runtime? scala. memory safety above all else, but without a managed runtime? rust
<immibis>
one language can't do everything well, no matter how much C++ tries, so they all come with design decisions that make some languages better for some things and worse for other things
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<kof123>
yeah that's how he uses it. i should not be surprised, but i assumed he was just famous for a certain post, and had no idea he was still "around", let alone in a leadership position
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<vaxuser>
> So those to me are my values. My values are, I want highest performance
<vaxuser>
is bryan no longer kissing girls
<gog>
Ermine: yes
* Ermine
pets gog
* gog
prr
<immibis>
my values are {09,F9,11,02,9D,74,E3,5B,D8,41,56,C5,63,56,88,C0}
<heat>
my values are i want highest performance
<heat>
least insane mateusz guzik statement
<vaxuser>
same interview:
<vaxuser>
> If you’re deploying OpenBSD in a production, there’s a good reason for that.
<heat>
least insane bryan cantrill statement
<heat>
paid openbsd shill
<mcrod`>
if I had to be interviewed by any of you
<heat>
Big OpenBSD has a lot of shills
<mcrod`>
i'd just leave
<vaxuser>
maybe he now kisses theo?
<heat>
mcrod`, our company values are i want highest performance
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<vaxuser>
i RIF 10% of low performing open source codez
<vaxuser>
solariz is on the list
<heat>
what's RIF?
<vaxuser>
reduction in force
<vaxuser>
aka layoff
<heat>
you lay off code?
<mcrod`>
performance above all else
<mcrod`>
i have a feeling we're going to have a layoff coming
<mcrod`>
and then i'm going to be ultra fucked
<mcrod`>
because i don't do well in interviews
<heat>
do you want me to interview you?
<mcrod`>
assuming that i get laid off
<heat>
i'm a poggers manager
<mcrod`>
no because you'll ask me something like this
<mcrod`>
"write a program that allows me to build a fucking spaceship to the fucking moon using no arithmetic operations"
<kof123>
he said there is lots of lethal bash code ... so i'm sure you can find a job with mr. cantrill
<vaxuser>
heat would not do that
<heat>
i would not do that
<vaxuser>
here is a sample question: "explain to me why c++ was a good choice for onyx"
<mcrod`>
"what is the exact sentence from page 59 of the ANSI C standard released on exactly june 8th, 1938"
<mcrod`>
well, no, that'd be #c
<heat>
"who did the minions serve from 1933 to 1945"
<mcrod`>
but these interviews are mostly leetcode crap
<mcrod`>
and I'm not good with those, because I think about the real world
<heat>
you should try ARM interviews
<mcrod`>
no i shouldn't
<mcrod`>
those are probably unreasonably hard
<heat>
they're actually pretty good
<vaxuser>
#osdev-by-chatgpt
<heat>
like a solid question I got was "tell me what were in your view the biggest advancements in CPU performance over the last years"
<heat>
something like that
<mcrod`>
huh
<vaxuser>
wut
<mcrod`>
i didn't know you applied to arm
<heat>
i have
<mcrod`>
i thought you were still in college and accordingly a weenie
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<heat>
i am
<vaxuser>
did you move to the basment yet
<heat>
i have however went through most big tech's interview processes in one form or another
<heat>
ARM interview questions have this clear electrical engineering background
<mcrod`>
i'm also frankly intimidated by interviews
<heat>
my coding interview was just a bit hacking program
<mcrod`>
mostly because if someone tells me "how would you reverse a string" and if we're talking about python I say "heatsucks"[::-1]
<mcrod`>
or reversed()
<heat>
there's no O(n)/O(log n) 'solve me this really stupid problem in such a way that it scales to N=200000000000000000000000000000000' garbage there
<heat>
*i think*
<mcrod`>
they'll look at me dead in the eye and say
<mcrod`>
"no, not like that"
<heat>
are you stupid
<mcrod`>
any other way to do it is moronic
<mcrod`>
no, i'm not
<vaxuser>
if an interviewer looks like in the eye
<froggey>
I applied at arm a few years ago, they asked me to convert a small function to ssa form. that was cool
<vaxuser>
are youe ven talking to a programmer
<mcrod`>
i'm very much against the way most interviews are handled
<mcrod`>
at least in the eastern seaboard of the US, 9 times out of 10 you're going to get the "how do you solve this problem in such a way that google will hire you instead of us" questions
<heat>
then apply to google directly
<heat>
ggez
<mcrod`>
for my current job, I was asked to design an alarm clock
<mcrod`>
and that made *sense*
<mcrod`>
being grilled by 12 people for 4 hours though
<mcrod`>
talk about pressure
<kof123>
transcription software still has issues lol > Bryan: He is the ultra apex predator of capitalism. But he is a super predator. And in fact, the only thing that gives me true hope and solace for the future is he is of such a biracial appetite
<kof123>
talking about bezos
<vaxuser>
on second to ladst interview i ever had i literally told them certain stuff is crap
<vaxuser>
got hired no problem
<mcrod`>
that's in europe
<mcrod`>
can't do that shit here
<heat>
THOSE DANG EUROPEANS CAN TELL THEIR INTERVIEWER TO FUCK OFF
<heat>
WHEREAS IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA THIS IS LITERALLY 1984
<mcrod`>
the hardest part of any job in my experience so far, is the interview
<heat>
vaxuser, was that for rh btw
<mcrod`>
my very very very first technical interview was with the group who makes pc-lint (static analyzer)
<mcrod`>
pc-lint isn't a small fish by any means
<vaxuser>
heat: ye, internally when moving to engineering
<mcrod`>
but I was hyperventilating and totally bombed it
<heat>
if i ever get to do a kernel coding interview i'll be the most impossible bastard they'll ever interview
<vaxuser>
when i was interviewing mofers they did not know you can't take a mutex while holding a spinlock
<vaxuser>
and so on
<heat>
that said, i did like 3-4 hours of kernel interviews this year and i blasted em ez
<mcrod`>
if you blasted them so easy
<mcrod`>
why are you not employed
<vaxuser>
that's probably because expecations are patheticall low at this point
<heat>
becaus >hiring in 2023
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<mcrod`>
vaxuser: it's honestly not about knowledge, it's about teachability these days
<vaxuser>
knowing what a page is makes you better than 90% of candidates
<mcrod`>
no one comes out of college with any real knowledge
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<mcrod`>
and... that's sad, but it's not their fault
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<heat>
mcrod`, i seriously believe most of CS programs' problems stem from professors not doing actual 'field work'
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<heat>
this is not a theoretical field (like maths or whatever) where you just "know" things and that's that
<mcrod`>
yes
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<immibis>
CS != SWEN
<kof123>
well that's...kind of the osi thing from the other day, innit?
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<heat>
immibis, the differences mostly don't matter when a "CS" program still needs to teach you how operating systems work when most teaching staff around the world has 0 experience with operating systems
<vaxuser>
lol
<vaxuser>
does not matter what the program is
<heat>
they have some slides and they know some "stuff" and they read them every semester
<vaxuser>
NEXT TO NOBODY LEARNS
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<heat>
vaxuser, have you tried to consider *why* nobody learns?
<vaxuser>
you never had a real job, did you
<vaxuser>
they don't learn because they don't want to
<immibis>
you don't need to know things to have a job. in fact, the higher up people know less things. but they know more people.
<vaxuser>
your typical "programmer" does not care about anything technical and plans to become a manager
<heat>
also because the program is usually deeply uninteresting
<mcrod`>
vaxuser: your experience is very odd
<vaxuser>
it's definitely not just my experience
<heat>
i had truly competent people in my team
<heat>
so i don't really know what you're on about, sorry
<mcrod`>
i don't either.
<vaxuser>
lol
<mcrod`>
this sounds exactly like what I'd hear on a newsgroup post in the 90s
<mcrod`>
"god everyone sucks, no one wants to learn"
<mcrod`>
or even... 'no one wants to work anymore'
<heat>
these kids don't want to work anymore
<heat>
all they want is their GOVERNMENT HANDOUTS
<heat>
(meanwhile, you're paying minumum wage for qualified labour)
<mcrod`>
you know what's really sad
<kof123>
^^^ not arguing that but yeah...how does one distinguish real genuine "skills shortage" versus "wages too low" lol
<mcrod`>
i can actually get a _really_ small build of Qt
<kof123>
because the theory of money, is if people aren't applying, somewhere along the line, the wages come into play loll
<mcrod`>
but you have to go through, with the diligence of a bee, all of the -skip and even worse, -list-features
<mcrod`>
and i'm only half way through the fucking LIST
<heat>
i'm starting to think you really enjoy this mcrod`
<mcrod`>
i don't
<heat>
red hat, canonical and suse hire remotely
<mcrod`>
what I want in life is precise control of the environment people work in for my projects
<heat>
think about it, you can be the next author of a test that sleeps for an hour
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<mcrod`>
it doesn't matter anyway
<mcrod`>
you can't compile qt on arch until 6.5.3 comes out
<heat>
arch is for losers
<mcrod`>
it's just a nightmare how bloated Qt actually is
<mcrod`>
but when you strip it down
<mcrod`>
it's tiny
<mcrod`>
i mean that's how things work if they're fat and they get stripped
<mcrod`>
but the difference is remarkable
<gog>
i use manjaro btw
<heat>
>bloated
<heat>
found the alpine linux user
<mcrod`>
no
<mcrod`>
did you even open the pastebin link
<heat>
do you also use suckless with openrc?
<mcrod`>
no
<mcrod`>
shithead
<heat>
fuc kyou
<gog>
boys
<mcrod`>
yes honey?
<gog>
play nice
<heat>
gog: i use linux kern
<heat>
with deh glibc and deh gnu userspace
<gog>
and you get so many good boy points for it
<mcrod`>
xkbcommon upgrade changed constants Qt was relying on
<mcrod`>
so now the build doesn't work
<mcrod`>
with how fragmented linux actually is, i can't believe it won
<heat>
gog, what are good boy points for? can i trade them for programming socks?
<gog>
yes
<gog>
or chicken tendies and choccy milk
<heat>
gog gog gog gog
<gog>
heat
<kof123>
without putting words into his mouth https://cr.yp.to/compatibility.html > I used to think that UNIX integrators introduced frivolous incompatibilities because they simply didn't understand the costs. But I've realized that the problem runs deeper: they like the costs.
<bslsk05>
cr.yp.to <no title>
<heat>
bazinux bazernal
<kof123>
or: one could argue that is why it "won"
<netbsduser``>
mcrod`: it was indisputably legally safe to work on while BSD was having some troubles
<mcrod`>
what a shame
<netbsduser``>
ironically that landed it in hot water in the early 2000s after IBM and the likes integrated code from their proprietary unixes with gay abandon
<heat>
yeah and in 2023 BSD is in deep shit so it's linux is the legally safest to work on
<gog>
then sco did a real life version of the "i made this" meme
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<netbsduser``>
sco tried to argue that, since (they claimed) they held the rights to unix, and since these proprietary unixes were derived from unix, linux was unacceptable
<heat>
with what abandon now
<gog>
gay abandon
<netbsduser``>
bsd has been in deep shit since 1991
<netbsduser``>
still it marches on
<gog>
like when you meet somebody on grindr and they don't show up
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<heat>
netbsduser``, they're all on life support apart from freebsd
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<vaxuser>
they are not even on life support
<heat>
solaris is on life support, hpux/aix as well, illumos is bcantrill's play thing
<vaxuser>
they are below deployability line
<netbsduser``>
my top concern with linux is actually that it's such an ad-hoc thing, there is limited direction, limited design and architectural work
<vaxuser>
illumos is used by at least one company in the real world
<vaxuser>
as a storage appliance
<gog>
me too
<heat>
are you a storage appliance gog
<netbsduser``>
it is in solaris that you find a unix which is the polar opposite of this freewheeling approach, but it's fallen a great fall
* vaxuser
grindrs gog
<gog>
yes
<vaxuser>
kof123: that's not what it is
<vaxuser>
and djb should know
<vaxuser>
people just have strong opinions on stuff for no good reason and roll with them in practice
<vaxuser>
i mean see fucking qmail
<vaxuser>
ey dan, make config compatible with sendmail
<vaxuser>
you are not trying to hoard users, are you mofo
<kof123>
sure, that's the double-sidedness of everything. 1) too many standards -> 2) add another -> 3) goto 1)
<kof123>
2) is meant to clear it up, but unless it somehow overcomes inertia, back to 1)
<heat>
vaxuser, somehow what you said reminds me of game of trees
<immibis>
netbsduser``: that's exactly what makes it work
<immibis>
anyone can add a bit onto it, and if their bit is good, everyone gets it
<immibis>
design by committee doesn't work; design by tried and tested patchwork does work, although you do end up with patchwork at the end.
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<immibis>
vaxuser: sarcastic right? who'd want to be compatible with sendmail config?
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<vaxuser>
djb should want to be if he heldh imself to the same standard he expects from systems
<mcrod`>
I could finally do -flto=full at home on LLVM!
<heat>
you can, but it'll still take like 50 years to link
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<mcrod`>
..
<mcrod`>
even if you disable some Qt features
<mcrod`>
the build fails
<mcrod`>
because qtbase relies on those features being enabled
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<mcrod`>
and I’m not sure why a command line parser absolutely has to be there for qtbase to function
<heat>
see, you enjoy this
<heat>
you should move into distro work
<mcrod`>
no i don’t
<mcrod`>
i really don’t
<heat>
mcrod@fedora.org
<heat>
sgtm
<mcrod`>
this is a fucking nightmare
<heat>
wait, fedoraproject.org?
<heat>
yeah
<mcrod`>
this is my curse because I want to just ship something that works
<mcrod`>
and you can rm -rf at any time
<heat>
you're voluntarily doing it
<heat>
after you realized this is hell
<heat>
that's passion right there
<mcrod`>
:)
<mcrod`>
i haven’t even started the gcc compiler
<mcrod`>
just LLVM for now
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<netbsduser``>
immibis: i don't agree with your presentation of design-by-committee and no design at all as the dichotomous options available
<heat>
do you seriously think linux has no design?
<netbsduser``>
every single one of linux's crown jewels (even RCU) was originally created through the rigorous work of disciplined engineering teams on commercial unixes
<heat>
just because you don't see it in self-agrandizing books, doesn't mean it's not there
<heat>
LOL RCU
<heat>
RCU in "commercial UNIXes" was nothing more than a toy
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<netbsduser``>
it was first designed in DYNIX/PTX
<heat>
dynix rcu is a joke compared to 1) early linux RCU 2) relatively modern RCU (tree RCU) 3) modern-er RCU (preemptible RCU, sleepably RCU, tracing RCU)
<netbsduser``>
what is clear is that linux development is a genetic algorithm
<heat>
linux is not a project where a bunch of commies send some patches sometimes
<netbsduser``>
and i don't accept that the outcome is good in any more measure than that it's had the most monkeys bashing on typewriters trying to patch it up
<heat>
that's *not* how linux works
<heat>
you have more "rigorous disciplined engineering teams" in linux than any other operating system
<heat>
windows, macOS pale in comparison. all other died off
<heat>
others
<netbsduser``>
it has probably 2 orders of magnitude more development attention than those two, if it were (for example) worse-performing it would be a truly scathing indictment
<netbsduser``>
that it doesn't wipe the floor with them is however scathing enough
<heat>
but it does
<heat>
it truly does
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<heat>
the only system that can sometimes remotely touch it or even "compete", is freebsd
<heat>
*sometimes*
<netbsduser``>
on what criteria? its directory entry cache?
<vaxuser>
lol i take offense
<netbsduser``>
(we all know that is what linux people can't stop talking about)
<vaxuser>
i made vfs faster in bsd than it is in linux because linux still manages to have a lot of stupdi
<heat>
performance, feature set, hardware support
<heat>
security (despite what openbsd people believe)
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<netbsduser``>
it can be fairly said that unlike openbsd, linux does have an implementation of a formal security architecture (SE-Linux MAC)
<mcrod`>
i love freebsd i’m afraid
<heat>
this man needs help
<mcrod`>
shut up pedro
<heat>
shut up michael
<vaxuser>
he has feelz because he does not use it
<mcrod`>
i wish freebsd would have more support than it does
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<heat>
i voluntarily tried to install netbsd and freebsd on my rpi
<heat>
needless to say, i failed
<vaxuser>
u sucksorz
<vaxuser>
i have never tried but rpi is supposed to work(tm)
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<heat>
had no wifi
<heat>
in fact, i think netbsd was lacking wifi, freebsd did not boot
<vaxuser>
you can prod individuals on #bsdmips
<vaxuser>
as the name suggests it is a general non-x86 channel
<heat>
>mips
<vaxuser>
extra points for mips not even being supported anymore
<heat>
#linuxia64
<heat>
for arm64-related questions
<vaxuser>
is that actually true? i would not be shocked
<heat>
fuck no
<vaxuser>
lame
<heat>
anyway i don't care that much about BSD on the rpi
<heat>
otherwise i would even give a shot at hardware support myself
<vaxuser>
:(
<vaxuser>
netbsduser``: do you use netbsd
<vaxuser>
and why not illumos
<heat>
vaxuser: do you use the VAX
<heat>
and is it your daily driver?
<vaxuser>
yea
<vaxuser>
bro i have a vax emulator and a 4.3 bsd image on it
<vaxuser>
real engineering
<heat>
i would not be surprised if the netbsd weird ports maintainers just had emulators and not real hw
<vaxuser>
it literally does not work on these ports
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<vaxuser>
they are "maintained" in the sense of remaining buildable
<vaxuser>
and only some get booted on an emulator
<vaxuser>
i don't know what they boot on bare metal apart from arm64 and amd64
<vaxuser>
must be next to nothing
<heat>
yikes
<immibis>
if you care a lot, sounds like it's time to become the maintainer