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<kazinsal>
fiddling around with some design stuff because I really do need to get my idiot spare time project back on track and continue implementing my bespoke router OS
<kazinsal>
and I've realized I've really got two options for the "user space" aspect, or at least, the syscall layer
<kazinsal>
either A) do everything NIH and unique and all that, and thus not really feasibly be able to port any software and have to reimplement everyhing from scratch
<kazinsal>
or B) shim in enough unix stuff to be able to have standard POSIX and libc stuff work natively so I can just port things like ospfd and bgpd and sshd
<kazinsal>
so now my poor mangled brain is trying to figure out what the best approach is, if I should do more of a raw "implement unix syscalls" deal or if I should channel the spirit of the NT team and build some kind of intermediary subsystem layer where I can translate unixisms with hopefully minimal impact
<kazinsal>
as much as the idea of doing a whole NIH implementation of every major protocol known to man is a fun one on paper, in practice, I really do not want to reimplement the insanely complicated state machines that run the whole internet
<kazinsal>
but I also don't just want to write another unix
<kazinsal>
unless it's for some stupid ancient system, because, y'know, peak dork hours
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<definitely-mjg>
check out the e-mail i got, no joke
<geist>
sup
<definitely-mjg>
re that netbsd OOMing stuff
<definitely-mjg>
I think I reported this something like 20 years ago, but noone really seemed to care. I noticed it pretty much right away after NetBSD switched to the unified memory thing, where all free memory usually was grabbed as disk cache. It was not fun on VAX, but at the time it seem other platforms didn't suffer enough to consider it a problem. I guess over time it's just gotten worse...
<definitely-mjg>
:p
<definitely-mjg>
VAX
<heat>
if only had they listen to the VAX users
<definitely-mjg>
ikr
<geist>
cool, nice that someone is looking at it. i was thinking of fiddling with trying to fix some tip of tree vax issues too
<geist>
i dont think it's been stable on vax for a few major revisions
<definitely-mjg>
this is not a vax problem, dude just mentions it
<bslsk05>
mail-index.netbsd.org: Unexpected out of memory kills when running parallel find instances over millions of files
<definitely-mjg>
dude says this was the case since switch to uvm
<heat>
mjg has a funny test that looks up millions of inodes and netbsd fails the test by OOM killing vs flushing old inodes out
<geist>
ah
<geist>
yah this is one of the interesting reasons why old platforms can be kinda useful, since they stress the system out in interesting ways
<definitely-mjg>
it's not a funny test, it's an actual workload
<geist>
so someone privately sent you an email about vax?
<geist>
oh that they had seen the same problem on vax. now i get it
<definitely-mjg>
VAX KURWA
<geist>
honestly i dunno why you're so gung ho about trying to troll me on this
<definitely-mjg>
i find in the same vein as people chanting RUST or ITANIUM
<definitely-mjg>
happy to gtfo on that one
<geist>
i'm seriously not going to bite, because i think it's geniunely nice that some folks are still fiddling with it. that's basically the *point* of netbsd, run on old things
<geist>
if you want a more modern thing, run something else
<heat>
ITANIUMITANIUMITANIUM
<definitely-mjg>
oh i totally agree
<definitely-mjg>
wanna fuck around with old archs, netbsd is there for you
<geist>
yep, and conversely i am 100% behind linux dumping arches like itanium or even x86-32 when the time comes
<definitely-mjg>
i am taking stabs at it because it pretends to be viable on actual hardware contemporary hardware
<geist>
old arches do hodl you back
<heat>
geist: :(
<definitely-mjg>
ye agreed
<geist>
well okay, i'm like 60% behind. at least the conversation should be had
<definitely-mjg>
quite frakly i would love if anything non-64 got whacked
<heat>
ya know ARM is still selling 32-bit right? and so is riscv
<geist>
somewhat agree, though 32bit will be strnog and alive for like 20 more years, since it's perfectly viable in emdedded world
<geist>
but x86-32 yes
* mcrod`
thumbs up
<heat>
in fact, ARM sells ya boards with > 4GB ram
<definitely-mjg>
i am aware :(
<definitely-mjg>
just sayin, 's a constant fucker
<definitely-mjg>
being kva starved
<geist>
but at least on those arches, riscv especially, the 32bitness is more of a detail, not a major rethink of things
<geist>
but yeah it does impact the use of kva
<geist>
which can and does have major design implications
<heat>
kmap is cursed
<definitely-mjg>
just implement 0 cost kmap in rust
<geist>
but i also have a 486 with 32MB so that is good for running slightly later stuff. a nice am486-133 too, so basically as good as they got to, short of overclocking to 150 or 166
<heat>
gosh why are you people sooooooo oolllllllllld
<geist>
heat: did you just realize you're sitting in the same room with a bunch of olds?
<heat>
yes, all the oldies
<heat>
all outdated
<mcrod`>
to make matters worse
<mcrod`>
after that terrible sound, it beeps 3 times, then 2, then 1
<definitely-mjg>
486 with 32M is some serious shit
<geist>
yeah i kinda explicitly went in search on ebay of the highest end 486, just to have it
<definitely-mjg>
which model is it
<geist>
oh it's some random ass thing, from bulgaria, literally
<definitely-mjg>
oh 133
<definitely-mjg>
ok
<geist>
yah am486-133
<definitely-mjg>
i think that is outdone a pentium90
<definitely-mjg>
by
<heat>
486 has invlpg therefore OPTIMAL
<geist>
yep. in college in 1995 my roommate and i jointly assembled an am486 with 8MB and ran it as a headless linux box for a few years
<geist>
it was a nice cheap but contemporarily fast machine at the time
<definitely-mjg>
mon
<definitely-mjg>
i had a 486 dx2 50 mhz
<geist>
maybe 16MB. good enough for decent command line usage
<definitely-mjg>
a friend of mine had 66 mhz
<definitely-mjg>
and his box was running ricles around mine
<definitely-mjg>
i had no idea why at the time, now i suspect he had caches
<definitely-mjg>
circles
<geist>
at the time just having a dedicated linux machine that you didn't have to dual boot to play your games and wasn't frustratingly slow was a huge win
<definitely-mjg>
:D
<geist>
like you were a hella turbo nerd at that point just *having* a linux box
<definitely-mjg>
rebooting to windows to google for error messages == $$
<heat>
linux in 95?
<geist>
heat: yeah woulda been slackware for sure. probably around linux 1.0 timeframe. i remember being aware at least when 1.0 was announced
<geist>
from whatever the .99 it was at before
<mcrod`>
my first experience ever
<mcrod`>
was ubuntu warty warthog
<geist>
i think 1.2 was a few years later, and when it switched to ELF or whatnot. also the libc5 vs glibc wars were being fought i think
<mcrod`>
and that was in 2004
<geist>
now i work with roland every day so i can get the straight dope
<mcrod`>
i actually had to order a CD
<geist>
yah cdroms were still kinda rare in 95, thoguh i had some old mitsumi drive. somethingl ike CD33 or whatnot
<heat>
wow that's really old
<geist>
needed a custom card and a linux driver for it
<geist>
to install something like slackware i just had to take a few boxes of disks to the computer lab on campus and punch them out one at a time, and when i got back to the dorm hope there weren't any read errors
<geist>
about a 50/50 chance you'd make it through a box of disks without a corruption
<geist>
late year 3.5 disks/drives were pretty shitty, honestly
<definitely-mjg>
3.5 disks were great
<definitely-mjg>
5.25 was the dogshit
<definitely-mjg>
you had to handle it like a fucking mona isa
<geist>
eeeh, i think the quality fell off over time, and the higher the density the more chance of failure
<definitely-mjg>
well it may be my faulty memory, but i don't recall any 3.5 fucking up on me
<geist>
i found over the years that old 720k disks are almost entirely fine, but 1.44s fail pretty quickly
<geist>
but that's a density issue
<definitely-mjg>
and i messed with them a lot on atari and amiga
<geist>
probably lower density
<definitely-mjg>
probably
<mcrod`>
heat: on the packard bell I have, the CD-ROM drive's data cable is connected directly to the sound card, which plugs into a daughterboard, which plugs into the mobo
<geist>
mcrod`: yeah that was super common, lots of sound cards had a cdrom cable
<mcrod`>
still crazy to me
<geist>
i forget precisely if those were just IDE adaptors, in the end adaotpr slot (since lots of smallish machines at the time only had one 40 pin connector on the mobo) or something else
<geist>
since an IDE 'controller' is not much but an ISA bus pass through it wouldn't be hard for the sound card to just go ahead and add another one
<geist>
with a jumper or whatnot on the card to disable in case your mobo actually had a second 40 pin IDE adaptor
<definitely-mjg>
i think that was for audio tracks?
* definitely-mjg
had one as well
<geist>
for audio there wasa little 3 pin cable from the cdrom to the sound card
<definitely-mjg>
genz don't know that games would fit on a cd so comfortably that game soundtrack would be literal tracks
<definitely-mjg>
ye
<geist>
the 40 pin connector on the sound card was mostly so they could sell a sound card + cdrom combo thing, since lots of machines at the time only had a single 40 pin connector for hard drive
<geist>
and ou dont really want to share a HD with a cdrom, at least at the time
<geist>
the cdroms are so slow and occupy the bus it really hurts hd performance
<sham1>
Hello, World!
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<geist>
hola
<mcrod`>
christ
<mcrod`>
well, never mind.
<geist>
hmm, wasn't there an old meme 'christ, what an asshole'
<definitely-mjg>
i don't know if i'm not old enough
<geist>
like you could take any comic and replace the text with that