<netbsduser`>
i struggle to come to a fair judgment on it because the loud coding style grates me
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<heat>
i tried plugging in my bluetooth earbuds on linux
<heat>
it sucks ass
<heat>
year of the linux desktop!
<heat>
i remember seeing something about using android's bluetooth stack, i wonder if that could work better
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<clever>
heat_: i tried using some BT headsets a few years back, and the stack was just stupid, it would retransmit lost packets, and if you went out of range for 5 seconds, then it was now permanently 5 seconds behind on all playback
<clever>
so every time you step a foot out of range, you start acrruing more lag
<kof13>
eh, i never had that problem, but seems to high latency for ddr
<clever>
all of my proprietary 2.4ghz headsets just accept packet loss and drop audio
<kof13>
like 1/2 a second is probably enough to be annoying/unusable
<kof13>
*too
<kof13>
this was with a little transmitter plug, no computer/phone/etc. involved
<kof13>
*usb transmitter/receiver to 3.5" jack i believe so it just needs usb for power basically
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<kof13>
whatever headphone-sized jack is :D
<Mutabah>
3.5mm
<kof13>
it seemed difficult or more expensive to find "wireless headphones" so bluetooth was just cheaper
<kof13>
^
<Mutabah>
Not to be confused with 3.5" floppies :)
<kof13>
that's probably why i said that lol
<Mutabah>
hmm... is there anything interesting at 3.5 feet?
<kof13>
on a semi-related note, what if i just generally run with interrupts disabled, and give some short recurring period where they are allowed? this seems it might seriously damage throughput, but might make interactivity/predictability better, assuming you are still quick enough to process them routinely
<kof13>
it is not polling, but like a mixture lol
<kof13>
or is this not really an issue, if you just have ISRs do bare minimum, and let something else do the real processing
<heat_>
what?
<heat_>
the more you have interrupts disabled, the worse the latency
<heat_>
throughput will probably be improved, it's the same with preemption disabling
<kof13>
latency for what though? cpu can do instructions without interrupts
<heat_>
other threads
<heat_>
IO
<kof13>
yes, that i can see :D
<kof13>
it was more of a joke idea
<kof13>
but if you assume a vm where you are basically deciding how many instructions you want to run
<kof13>
then it is more along those lines, you just give a short period where interrupts can go lol
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<kof13>
*where you could decide how many instructions to run, if you wanted
<kof13>
the other question is how bad it would be too disable/enable frequently i assume that is slow
<kof13>
*to
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<kof13>
i just see it would give you precise control, but ...overhead is likely bad
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<heat>
gosh darn my router
<heat>
<heat_> modern x86 has a solid performance penalty when disabling/enabling interrupts but it's nothing too bad
<heat>
but if you toggle it every instruction you're probably screwed lol
<Mutabah>
and really, there's no need to.
<Mutabah>
If servicing interrupts is impacting performance, then maybe you need to find out why
<Mutabah>
or look into ways of spreading/concentrating interrupt load
<Mutabah>
E.g. dedicate an entire core to device IRQ handling, so the others are just doing compute
<heat>
if your device has a high enough IRQ rate it probably supports MSI
<heat>
thus you can spread some IRQs out
<kof13>
makes sense, just a thought lol it would be like time slicing them basically lol
<kof13>
or "everything is a process" maybe, including interrupts
<heat>
that's the main idea behind something like ksoftirqd
<heat>
but acking them is still beneficial
<heat>
softirqs themselves are a huge but useful hack because *scheduling* has high overhead
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<kof13>
> The hard interrupt handler then leaves the majority of packet reception to a software interrupt, or SoftIRQ, a process which can be scheduled more fairly.
<kof13>
yeah, this would seemingly effectively make them all soft interrupts
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<kof13>
> but if you toggle it every instruction you're probably screwed lol < just to clarify it wouldn't be that bad, it would be like <imaginary scenario> one cpu, 5 "processes" scheduler looks at them and runs them one at a time, lets say 10 virtual instructions (where a virtual instruction might be 10-20 real instructions each, or whatever the case may be). and then the scheduler says "ok i ran through the queue, lets s
<kof13>
ee if there are any interrupts" lol
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<kof13>
i still think it is a bad idea, just clarifying "instructions"
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<kof13>
the imaginary example was like bytecode, to clarify "vm"
<kof13>
so entirely software-based
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<kof13>
or a hybrid might be a little less bad, keyboard/mouse/whatever is important, could still interrupt normally, but other "less important" interrupts must wait until the scheduler gets around to them. anyways...
* kof13
puts on 1/2 of karnac hat . come to me with your 1980s questions, i have a 50% chance of divining them via osmosis
<kof13>
that is not quite the same, it says they wish to use more "work objects" created during interrupts to reduce the amount of time spent there...but it does make a statement their "mirrored" server just tracks events, non-preemptively, and does not rely on interrupts lol
<kof13>
i would guess "work objects" are perhaps the norm, want to return asap from interrupts
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<kof13>
then they also have a list of things you can setup for polling i suppose, i assume it would depend on drivers which allow that mode or not
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<kof13>
*the norm nowadays
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<immibis>
kof13: it makes a lot of sense for device drivers to be processes, however it doesn't work if your device requires a response time in microseconds (high speed UART maybe?). So maybe you can have processes for most devices except the ones where that doesn't work.
<immibis>
a lot of sense from an architecture standpoint, not saying it's easy to implement
<gog>
microkernelllll
<kof13>
yeah it seems tradeoffs to me. if you wanted to process things ASAP, then don't put on a queue, because surely that is a small amount of overhead even to do that
<kof13>
*"work object" in netware-speak apparently
<kof13>
but if you do do that, then you have some ability to "schedule"
<gog>
the way NT deals with this is they have two levels of interrupt handling, a low-level and a high-level. the low-level routine can do stuff immediately and schedule anything that can be deferred to a handler that may or may not be in usermode
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<gog>
or have parts in user mode
<gog>
windows drivers are wild
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<kof13>
i also have no idea but how would smp or multicore complicate this?
<kof13>
i mean, just reserve a core or two if you thought it was that important
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<immibis>
gog: that's also how linux deals with it, but they call it hard and soft IRQ
<kof13>
i really have not got there yet, it was more an exercise in reversed logic like that 'not not' guy
<immibis>
soft IRQs are deprecated. the replacement is - guess what - processes!
<gog>
exceptions always go to the CPU on which the exception happened, IRQs can be routed with the LAPIC on x86
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<dzwdz>
is there some list of hpet periods across different computers out there?
<heat>
hm?
<heat>
they explicitly give you the period in a register
<heat>
that's the best you're getting in the pool of x86 PC timers
<dzwdz>
yes, and i want to see what are the typical values
<heat>
why does that matter
<dzwdz>
i want to use it as a system clock, so to get the current time in ns i need to do something like ticks*period/1000000
<dzwdz>
implemented naively, the first multiplication will overflow after ~6 hours
<heat>
use a 64-bit mult there
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<dzwdz>
then i will need a 128-bit multiplication for the division by a constant
<dzwdz>
which feels weird
<heat>
why?
<heat>
are you doing 64.64?
<dzwdz>
wdym?
<dzwdz>
ticks*period will result in a 128bit value, and afaik, to efficiently divide by a constant, you'd multiply this by a 128b value and then discard the lower bits of the resulting 256b value
<dzwdz>
on qemu the period is a power of 10 - i wanted to check how common it is in practice for the period to be divisible by 1000000
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<sham1>
(A * 2^64 + B) * (C * 2^64 + D) = (A * C) * 2^128 + (A * D + B * C) * 2^64 + B * D. So you'd calculate A * C and then evaluate A * D + B + C for any overflow and add to A * C
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<sham1>
You can take some shortcuts by noticing that in A * D there will be no overflow if A and D are both below √(2^64) = 2^32, you will be guaranteed no overflow from that multiplication, same for B * C
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<heat>
i'd like to help you but maths is hard
<heat>
i do urge you to use someone else's fixed point library because maths is, again, hard
<heat>
i'm using geist's lk stuff and it works fine
<heat>
ooooooooooh so SLAB_VIRTUAL patches have just been posted
<heat>
they kind of work like macOS's zone allocator where they hold virtual address ranges for as long as they can (hopefully forever if you never face virtual address exhaustion)
<heat>
to try to defeat type confusion
<heat>
SLAB_VIRTUAL's performance impact depends on the workload. On kernel compilation (kernbench) the slowdown is about 1-2% depending on the machine type and is slightly worse on machines with more cores.
<nortti>
I presume it's meant as exploit mitigation? or are there other benefits to that?
<heat>
exploit mitigation yeah
<heat>
you'll always lose some performance by not using larger page sizes
<heat>
XNU even has some fancy type hashing using the compiler where it really tries to stop type confusion
<bslsk05>
community.zoom.com: Do not check if XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP is gnome for w... - Zoom Community
<Ermine>
puck: the issue is that it crashes on launch if you set wayland=true and xwayland=false in its conf
<Ermine>
And under xwayland, popup menu rendering is extremely buggy
<Ermine>
heat: imo 'deskterp linox' sounds like this all is linux desktop devs
<Ermine>
Also zoom cannot into properly separating strings into lines
<puck>
Ermine: hey at least zoom no longer implement wayland screensharing by uhhhh
<puck>
Ermine: taking 30 screenshots a second
<puck>
using a private api
<Ermine>
Well... That's good probably...
<puck>
iirc to do this they had to also claim they were gnome screenshots
<puck>
ah, no, that was properly secured /after/
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<zid>
heat what did you do with gog
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<gorgonical>
thoughts on assert vs panic
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<gog>
i'm right here fuck
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<gog>
gorgonical: i usually panic when i should assert myself
<gorgonical>
lol
<gog>
anxiety disorder is a fuck
<zid>
I sent you a message on discorn about 20 hours ago but never saw you go orange or green
<zid>
It was HILARIOUS ofc
<gog>
i was cooking dinner for my beautiful wife
<zid>
from 6am to now? impressive, quite the feast I'm sure
<ChavGPT>
maybe gog is openbsd at cooking
<gog>
oh
<ChavGPT>
just sayin
<gog>
i didn't even see that
<gog>
i don't even wake up until like 8
<gorgonical>
such an early riser
<gorgonical>
what do you like have a real job or something
<gog>
yeah i do actually
<zid>
scab
<gorgonical>
the horror
<gog>
scab??? i'm union
<zid>
betraying the revolution
<zid>
You're supposed to use your union to be on strike 24/7
<gog>
girl's gotta eat
<gog>
and fund her various vices
<zid>
eating is below a glorious revolutionary's ethical responsibilities
<gog>
ok
<gorgonical>
like eating famous hot dogs
<zid>
throw off the chains of oppression, the silver ones with the cute cat charm
<gog>
mine's actually a crescent moon and some stars
<gorgonical>
but iceland does have like one of the oldest parliaments so that's pretty marxist
<zid>
still, pretty close :P
<gorgonical>
for ~900 anyway
<moon-child>
zid: do you have a job?
<zid>
no
<zid>
I am a glorious revolutionary
<zid>
down with the yoke surrounding our society, and all that
<gorgonical>
mmm eggs
<zid>
YOKE
<zid>
fucking americans
<gorgonical>
do not seriously tell you say them differently
<gog>
egg yoke
<moon-child>
zid: moocher
<zid>
we are all moochers of mother earth's teet
<zid>
but some wish to interpose, and steal the life giving care she gives us
<zid>
and to destroy it
<zid>
I'm not even in it for the politics, I just really needed an excuse to use the word 'foment'
<gog>
just make cider at home
<gog>
you can use that word all the time then
<zid>
gorgonical could
<zid>
I did consider finding a good jug and an airlock
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<zid>
and.. doing that f thing, to some pears
<gorgonical>
i've never made cider but have made mead
<gorgonical>
I am going apple picking tomorrow so perhaps cider is in my future
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<gog>
my wife has made cider and mead both
<gog>
she's gonna get an airlock and try to make some more
<zid>
real cider, or american cider
<gorgonical>
I should have another go at it because the last time I made mead was 10 years ago when I was in college
<zid>
where you have to prefix it with 'hard' to mean real cider
<zid>
I wonder if a crazy straw poked into a wine cork is good enough for an air lock
<gorgonical>
i am not interested if there's no alcohol, zid
<gorgonical>
if you pour some water into it, yes
<zid>
..you thought I thought the point of an airlock was just that it was circuitous?
<zid>
Thanks
<gorgonical>
i mean if it's sufficiently circuitous that would also work
<gorgonical>
that's basically the idea behind a still air box
<zid>
except the air isn't still
<gorgonical>
still-ish
<gorgonical>
and anyway if your fermentation is vigorous enough it may maintain something close to positive pressure
<gorgonical>
a small enough bore of a straw could actually work in that case, without a water lock
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<zid>
problem is if it acts like a pulse jet
<gog>
zid: real cider
<zid>
which I bet a cold day would do
<zid>
an airlock is literally £2 on ebay though
<gorgonical>
or even a balloon or glove works and probably people already have that
<gorgonical>
I have seen people snip a finger off a nitrile glove and use that
<zid>
I'd have to buy a pack of nitrile gloves
<zid>
I do want some though, for wanking purposes
<zid>
so maybe
<gorgonical>
what are those devices called again? the homemade ones?
<gorgonical>
when i was a teenager I read about them on jackinworld lol
<zid>
for what
<zid>
oh
<zid>
not a clue, I'm not a weirdo
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<gorgonical>
I could have sworn they had a name
<gog>
i'm a weirdo
<gorgonical>
But maybe it's one of those things that's not in use anymore, like pwn or leet
<zid>
I don't evne know what the they is
<gog>
a wank sleeve
<zid>
much less if it has a name
<gorgonical>
yeah those things. made out of like gloves and pringles cans and shit like that
<zid>
you've just decided on something in your own head must be common between us somehow, telepathically
<zid>
a.. pocket pussy
<gog>
oh fleshlight
<zid>
see, it helps if you describe it
<gorgonical>
but when I was a teenager I recall the internet making a distinction between the expensive, commerical fleshlights and whatever janky wanker you concocted at home
<gorgonical>
i have been wrong before though so
<gog>
janky wanker lmfao
<zid>
I already told you the name
<zid>
I'm too seiso to say it a second time
<zid>
gog: Do you think pink diesel tastes nicer than regular?
<gog>
yes
<gog>
it has a hint of raspberry
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<gog>
zid are you playing factorio
<gorgonical>
playing factorio makes me want to write my own riscv core
<gorgonical>
i can't really explain why
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<gog>
makes sense
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<gorgonical>
man writing code at the kernel level is so, so, so much more productive
<gorgonical>
I wrote this whole thing I needed this afternoon instead of spending two weeks debugging wacky bootloader issues
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<heat>
gorgonical, they're different
<heat>
wrt assert vs panic
<heat>
asserts are canonically supposed to be debug stuff you can disable
<heat>
panics are panics
<heat>
asserts will end up panic'ing anyway
<mcrod>
hi
<mcrod>
i printed something in my complex
<mcrod>
and I have no idea where it is in the building
<mcrod>
.
<ChavGPT>
unless you are using linux innit
<heat>
BUG_ON is just a fancy PANIC_ON
<heat>
(that doesn't fucking panic because linux is bizarre)
<mcrod>
freertos is really fun, people
<heat>
hey you should stop using freertos
<heat>
use freebsd
<ChavGPT>
anything with free in name is shite
<heat>
it's free
<ChavGPT>
but is it open :X
<heat>
no
<heat>
does it fly dragons? no? don't like it
* ChavGPT
is sticking to net then
<heat>
net isn't open mate
<heat>
net is net
<ChavGPT>
how about some dev team swap for a month
<ChavGPT>
obsd devs commit to fbsd and vice versa
<heat>
the freebsd devs would finally be forced to use the OS they dev and thus self-destruct
<ChavGPT>
joke is on you
<ChavGPT>
i use linux
<ChavGPT>
with some patchen
<heat>
it is known
<mcrod>
soon I will be demonstrating LLVM to our team
<mcrod>
pray that I can convince old farts to change
<heat>
you are a popular linux kernel developer
<heat>
have you tested SLAB_VIRTUAL yet? to see if it's ungooder than they say it is
<mcrod>
freertos with -Os is like.. 6KB though
<mcrod>
fucking nuts
<ChavGPT>
the idea is decent
<ChavGPT>
but i don't know how effective it is going to be
<heat>
it's totes incompatible with 32-bit at least
<ChavGPT>
i'm out of exploitation game for overa decade
<ChavGPT>
who cares about KVA-starved archs
<heat>
the macOS zone alloc does the same
<heat>
they also do a funny where they bin kmalloc requests based on the type's tag information
<heat>
which does things like "8-byte granule #0 has a pointer, #1 has data, #2 has a pointer"
<heat>
it helps stop same-cache type confusion
<ChavGPT>
i could not help but notice you are security-minded
<ChavGPT>
openbsd is the project for you then mate
<heat>
someone put something in my drink yeah
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<netbsduser`>
mcrod: from what are you changing to LLVM?
<heat>
this allocator is fuckin PESSI-exploitable
<mcrod>
netbsduser`: IAR
<mcrod>
totally useless
<heat>
boohoo mcrod
<mcrod>
hey
<heat>
you'll take your enterprise toolchain and you'll enjoy it too
<mcrod>
i'm doing the lord's work
<heat>
maybe you'll end up doing a pointerpoint presentation on IAR as well.
<mcrod>
i already have a powerpoint on IAR vs LLVM
<mcrod>
there is only one pro to IAR: the fact we can share source code with them if we have a problem because NDA
<mcrod>
and yes
<mcrod>
i bitch about IAR way too much
<mcrod>
i should stop that
<ChavGPT>
mate
<ChavGPT>
any miscompilation is going to be put on you
<ChavGPT>
and in fact any bug which is not yours will be blamed on the new toolchain
<mcrod>
i'm sure it will
<ChavGPT>
should this succeed, which it wont, you would only set yourself up as the fall guy
<ChavGPT>
and get nothing in return
<mcrod>
we're not terribly toxic yknow
<ChavGPT>
the thing to do is to gtfo from that workplace
<mcrod>
why? i don't mind this place
<ChavGPT>
well i tried
<mcrod>
trust me. i've been through a toxic workplace. it could've killed me. this is nothing.
<mcrod>
let me have some fun, dammit
<gog>
hi
<mcrod>
hi gog
<mcrod>
may I pet you
<gog>
please
* mcrod
pets gog
* gog
prr
<mcrod>
is something wrong :(
<gog>
no
<gog>
not really
<gog>
but yes
* kazinsal
hugs gog
* gog
hug kazinsal
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* ChavGPT
burps
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* gog
pets ChavGPT
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<cloudowind>
how are we doing
<kazinsal>
it's friday
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<cloudowind>
then why heraclitus says everyday is the same day
<kazinsal>
because pre-socratic greek philosophers spent most of their time getting blasted and writing down drunken shower thoughts
<kof13>
it just loops around. if you want to understand heraclitus you must understood the loop
<kof13>
basically earth was believed to have 2 hemispheres
<kazinsal>
bum wine it is
<kof13>
the modern version is just one lol
<cloudowind>
:)
<cloudowind>
but he alsa says sun is new every day but it is ok for him to do so because he is also as in his fragment 10 ; (59) Couples are things whole and things not whole, what is drawn together and what is drawn asunder, the harmonious and the discordant. The one is made up of all things, and all things issue from the one.
<cloudowind>
in aristotle's universe , we cant say something doesn't exist while we say it does exist , aristotle has always admired heraclitus tho , everyone did ... anyway this is not place for this , before i get kicked