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<sham1>
I thought that SICP is the original recommendation to go alongside the programming socks
<sham1>
Who knows, you could always combine it with the use of a fez
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<kazinsal>
experiment results: the programmer socks may have made me better at healing in FFXIV
<sham1>
Healing socks
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<FireFly>
oh
<FireFly>
maybe I need to acquire some then, I'm basically useless at anything that isn't dps (and tbh that too)
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<kof13>
ff6 had marvel shoes. marvelous: not understood -- devil's dictionary lol
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<Hammdist>
I've run into a stumper with my OS thought I'd post here for advice. as you may know when starting a user program the stack is initialized with args, envp, and auxv data. If I copy the initial stack from QEMU, duration of my program is 8s. if I initialize the stack using my own code, duration of my program is 11s. so I suspect the program is
<Hammdist>
testing some capability and running in a slower compat mode for some operations. however I've checked in qemu+gdb that the HWCAP auxv entry is picked up correctly by the program. any advice appreciated.
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<x8dcc>
What do you think is the easiest way of switching between VGA terminal and framebuffer? The only way I know currently is by setting or clearing the bit 2 of the multiboot flags at compile time
<heat>
that one
<x8dcc>
I mean at runtime, sorry
<heat>
it's very hard, don't attempt it
<heat>
it involves video drivers and black magic
<nortti>
you'll probably just want to write a framebuffer-based console
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<heat>
yea
<x8dcc>
hmm... then I think I am missing something because I saw it in a simple kernel I found on github, but the code is very hard for me to read
<gog>
not pleased i had to add 16 lines to accomplish this
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<gog>
hi
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<heat>
linux gog linux
<zid>
stop, collaborate and listen?
<heat>
no, not listen, linux
<zid>
oh sorry
<heat>
i wrote an interval tree today but im not sure if its correct
<heat>
at the very least i'm lacking full coverage
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<zid>
heat you were supposed to be writing me a trash allocator
<heat>
return &heat;
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<GeDaMo>
Is 'heat' an automatic variable? :|
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<gog>
heat: do you want some mac and cheese?
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<gog>
stop, collaborate and linux
<gog>
torvalds is back with a brand new invention
<ChavGPT>
what
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<gog>
hi
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<ChavGPT>
hello gog
<gog>
hello ChavGPT
<gog>
do you want some mac and cheese
<ChavGPT>
i/m operating in code of conduct mode today
<ChavGPT>
no thank you, a little late for eating anything for me
<gog>
what is code of conduct mode
<gog>
does it mean i can't trick you into spewing slurs
<ChavGPT>
i don't think tricking people into anything is particularly nice
<gog>
fair
<ChavGPT>
interesting CoC prevents me from comment on onyx :X
<ChavGPT>
interestingly even
<Cindy>
hi gog
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<Cindy>
i took over, bnchs had his time :P
<gog>
hi Cindy
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<Cindy>
now i'm cindy :D
<ChavGPT>
i'm spartakus
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<gog>
i'm gog
<ChavGPT>
cccombo breaker innit
<Cindy>
hi gog
<Cindy>
how are you doing
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<gog>
p good
<gog>
how are you
<Cindy>
pretty good too :3
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<gog>
ChavGPT: i had a pessimal experience today
<gog>
my reviewer didn't like how i solved a particular problem so i ended up having to revert it and putting conditionals in a loop where they don't really need to be :(
<gog>
we could've saved dozens of cycles
<ChavGPT>
ask chatgpt next time
<gog>
yes
<gog>
the plagiarism machine is what i need in my life
<gog>
i've deliberately refused to use chatgpt for anything
<gog>
i've played with it momentarily but it's frankly kinda boring
<gog>
and i don't think it's a good example of how LLM technology can be of benefit
<moon-child>
no code motion?
<gog>
no
<moon-child>
wut
<moon-child>
what kind of compiler are you using?
<geist>
what is code motion?
<geist>
like hoisting stuff out of the loop automatically?
<moon-child>
a compiler optimisation where it moves code--for example, moving a calculation out of a loop
<moon-child>
yeah
<gog>
idk maybe
<gog>
it is .net
<gog>
so idk what happens when it all jits
<gog>
besides my "optimization" was probably premature
<heat>
code lotion
<gog>
hhhhh
<heat>
ChavGPT, hi how are you
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<heat>
why are you so mean sometimes
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<gog>
meow
* moon-child
pets gog
* gog
prr
<heat>
gog giv eme hog
* gog
hug heat
* heat
hog gog
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<zid>
heat: is it done now?
<heat>
what is
<geist>
the only answer is yes
<geist>
or if it has anything to do with osdev: no
<heat>
i've been doing vm work
<heat>
mainly thinking about rmap page -> mappings
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<heat>
also LRU
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<heat>
i don't like how the UVM stuff just leaves that to pmap
<heat>
"meh, they'll figure it out"
<heat>
freebsd does that too
<heat>
how ungeneric can this be? lol
<geist>
yeah i've always been generally in Team Pmap, but i'm starting to see some of the downsides
<geist>
well, trouble is the rmap stuff tends to be managed by the pmap because it's when it has to fiddle around with adding/removing
<geist>
but indeed, i see no reason the rmap stuff cant be put outside of pmap in a arch neutral generic place
<heat>
the linux stuff just links vmas together, that's the whole rmap
<heat>
it's very generic and reusable
<geist>
right, well linux doesn't really have a pmap in that cas,e so it kinda sidesteps it
<heat>
you don't know if a page *is* mapped under linux rmap
<heat>
you just know it can be mapped
<geist>
'could be' as in 'maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but it definitely might be?'
<heat>
there's no map(page, addr) { ...; add_to_rmap(page, addr, address_space);}
<heat>
yes
<geist>
ie, a soft 'yes'
<heat>
so you go through mappings and just forcibly make sure it isn't mapped, done
<geist>
that's what zircon does, we just dont have a rmap, but then that means some operatios are pretty expensive
<geist>
notably shooting down a mapping of any given page is a O(N) walk through every known mapping and doing a shootdown on that aspace
<heat>
oh no
<heat>
that's not what linux does
<heat>
they use an interval tree
<heat>
which is what i've been working on today
<heat>
basically an augmented binary search tree with ranges
<geist>
i think we have an optimization that we know if there are zero mappings at least and skip the shootdown
<geist>
but only if there are zero mappings, because then the LRU has tracked that
<heat>
like if you want to reclaim a page from a specific inode, you go through its mappings and search for mappings of range [N, N + 4096]
<heat>
so it's O(log n)
* geist
nods
<geist>
in gneral the vast majoroity of pages are mapped once in zircon, so it's really not too bad. for those there's a single mapping, and we already know if the page is definitely unmapped, so we can skip it
<geist>
and if it's possibly mapped, we just shoot it down, so it's not the end of the world
<heat>
you don't CoW too much?
<geist>
well, that's the problem. we have the standard 1990s era 'cow chain that goes on forever' problem
<heat>
haha
<geist>
so for certain vmos it's pretty bad. that's where most of the work is currently being done to clean things up
<geist>
notably libc.so, etc
<heat>
the mach kernel people called, they want their problem back
<heat>
:P
<geist>
yup
<heat>
what if
<heat>
you just got rid of cow chaining?
<geist>
tat's the idea
<geist>
some work is afoot to rethink that whole strategy
<heat>
and you'll break userspace?
<geist>
how so?
<heat>
or do you think you have some leeway for that?
<geist>
leeway
<heat>
don't you expose all the VMO mechanisms to userspace?
<heat>
like COW chains and stuff
<geist>
ah but we're very veru careful to expose it specifically not like that
<geist>
ie, the operations user space has is basically 'make vmo, map vmo, clone vmo'
<geist>
but once it's cloned, it's logically separate
<geist>
as in the whole parentage, is a side effect, but not load bearing
<heat>
the classic solution is to separate CoW pages into an 'amap'-ish thing
<heat>
which sticks together with the mapping, but i guess you could make that its own object
<heat>
i don't know if that solves your issue, but it solves the UNIX issues
<geist>
yeah of course trouble with our design is you can operate on the vmo outside of a mapping
<geist>
a mapping is just one of the things you can do, but you can also just pass around a handle to a perfectly unmapped vmo and fiddle with it directly
<geist>
so we cant really use mappings as a way to track things. that's probably where most of the complexity comes from
<heat>
oh and this is also a funny detail on the linux side - a MAP_PRIVATE file mapping is both on the inode's mapping tree and the anon_vma tree
<heat>
it's like a double-edged thing
<geist>
vmos are intrinsically more poweful from the get go, since they're functionally a tmpfs like file object from day 1
<geist>
but that also means they're a little harder to rethink
<geist>
since they have more 'mass' i guess
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<geist>
one thing i think that might be interesting is to literally shrae pages at the page level, and hust have vmos pointing at runs of pages, each ref counted,e tc. basically like btrfs or whatnot
<geist>
probably the data structures for that would be fairly heavyweight, but it would sever the entire parentage stuff
<heat>
and marking pages CoW?
<heat>
like page->flags |= PAGE_COW;
<geist>
well, naieely it wouldn't be at the page level, the vmo itself would know if it's requirede to cow its pages, and when it goes to write to a page, and the page turns out to be ref > 1 then it makes a copy
<geist>
ie, pages are just pages, but they may be referred to by multiple vmos, but then the vmo knows if it needs to cow or not
<heat>
yeah but ref > 1 is not quite correct is it
<heat>
someone could have an ephemeral reference just to read from it or something
<geist>
ah depends on if it's useful to have a assymmetric COW mechanism
<geist>
or all COW is always intrinsically symmetric
<heat>
that's actually a thing i've thought about lately: do i want a ref counter *and* a nr_mappings; counter
<geist>
ie do you want to cow something and then non cow clone the first clone
<heat>
with 2 counters you can easily see which bits are being temporarily held and which bits are just mapped, and the mapped bits can easily be reclaimed
* geist
nods
<geist>
anyway, i mostly dont work on that stuff anymore, i'm pretty much 100% riscv right now
<geist>
same soc, about the same amount of ram, etc
<geist>
yeah, basically same thing, different board layout
<geist>
note that there's no KVM on these, since the cpu doesn't have the H extension, so dont expect to use it as a qemu host
<geist>
next gen sifive cores have H extension, so probably in a year or so will start seeing those floating around
<geist>
P470,p670, p8xx, etc. those also have V extension, so really it's the next gen stuff that will start to actually compete with cortex-a7x class stuff
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<heat_>
from what i've read around in #riscv visionfive 2 is a lot more usable from an upstream kernel than the pine64 stuff
heat_ is now known as heat
<heat>
anyway all i want in life is affordable fast arm64/riscv64 hardware
<heat>
like an intel-i5-level cpu
<heat>
not an ampere altra that costs ya 10 gazillion usd dollar
<heat>
or a crappy rpi
<nortti>
if you want i5 level, ignoring price, what options are there even? intel and amd amd64, apple arm64?
<heat>
probably apple arm64 is my best bet yeah
<nortti>
you can get used m1 mac minis for a few hundred euros that I've seen in the local apple hobbyists forum
<CompanionCube>
is the loongson mips stuff i5 level?
<heat>
there's only one single vendor that sells performant cheaper hardware
<heat>
oh loongson probably sucks lol
<heat>
there's no way an obscure chinese architecture beats even current riscv
<bslsk05>
chipsandcheese.com: Loongson’s 3A5000: China’s Best Shot? – Chips and Cheese
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<nortti>
tl;dr: "Even though Loongson has gotten their cores up from 1 GHz to 2.5 GHz, no one runs desktop or even laptop CPUs at clocks that low. Because of its massive clock speed deficiency, Loongson can’t even get in to the same performance ballpark as recent desktop CPUs. It even struggles against Neoverse N1 running at 3 GHz."
<heat>
"The result is that today, Loongson doesn’t feel any closer to Intel and AMD than they were a decade ago. I also don’t think they have a good chance of landing in the same performance ballpark unless they make some giant leaps"
<heat>
lol
<ChavGPT>
performant aint a word bro
<sham1>
What is it then
<heat>
who the fuck asked
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<ChavGPT>
have some dignity young man
<heat>
s/performant/NOT PESSIMAL/
<kazinsal>
OED lists "performant", as does cambridge
<kazinsal>
thus it is a word
<moon-child>
oh yeah
<moon-child>
sounds like those dictionaries are PESSIMAL
<nortti>
kazinsal: do they have "pessimal"?
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<sham1>
Do they even have optimal
<heat>
wait a fucking minute
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<heat>
pessimal means worst
<heat>
this dude has been using the wrong word
<ChavGPT>
what?
<heat>
: of, relating to, or constituting a pessimum : WORST
<ChavGPT>
i picked it up from an australian geezer
<ChavGPT>
true story
<heat>
pessimal means worst
<heat>
if something is pessimal it has to be the *worst*
<zid>
it's the opposite of optimal
<heat>
literally the opposite of optimal
<sham1>
What *did* you think it meant
<heat>
fuck do i know
<zid>
tbh that isn't how people use it for computer jargon
<ChavGPT>
is my whole life a lie?
<heat>
i just saw this freebsd geezer throwing this word around like it was in style
<zid>
by which I mean, the three times it's ever been used
<sham1>
I mean, optimal means "the best"
<ChavGPT>
it is in certain circles mon
<sham1>
From the latin optimus, the best
<ChavGPT>
and boils down to "slower than it could be for no good reason"
<zid>
right but optimize doesn't mean "Make the best"
<zid>
in computing
<zid>
it means to improve
<zid>
so pessimize in computing should mean "to deprove" :p
<sham1>
You're trying to make the software the best it can be
<ChavGPT>
who is
<sham1>
The one optimising
<zid>
It's just a lexical gap that we stuffed with a very similar word
<zid>
otherwise you'd have to say "attempt to optimize" to mean "make faster"
<zid>
which is awkward af
<zid>
so, we just say optimize
<sham1>
We could always say that we're perfecting the program :P
<zid>
right, that's the same
<zid>
we don't take it in its literal sense, we take it in a progressive incremental sense
<ChavGPT>
i will never use that word again beacause of heat
<heat>
good
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<heat>
what do you think of my mutexes
<ChavGPT>
i'm going to stop using slurs as well, indefinitely
<heat>
are they unbest
<zid>
I think you should add me an allocator
<ChavGPT>
i can't answer that Pedro
<zid>
spend an hour on it for me
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<heat>
ok mateusz
<heat>
ok mateusz@
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<gog>
hi
<heat>
hi gog
<ChavGPT>
gog are you going to be my friend
<gog>
yes
<ChavGPT>
i have to cut off heat
<ChavGPT>
thanks gogs
* ChavGPT
hugs gog
<gog>
friendship ended with heat, now gog is my best friend
* gog
hug ChavGPT
<ChavGPT>
OPTIMAL friendship
<heat>
motherfucker she branches her whole code and tells IRC
<heat>
and you prefer her?
<ChavGPT>
i feel deeply demotivated
<ChavGPT>
if you can't say code is pessimal, what is even the point
<gog>
hey hey hey now
<ChavGPT>
of doing a review
<heat>
have you considered saying
<heat>
"Hey! This could be improved:"
<gog>
i wanted to keep the reduction
<ChavGPT>
heat: i don't work at corporate anymore
<gog>
it was cleaner to me
<gog>
but the argument was "what if you a year ago saw this code"
<ChavGPT>
heat: you have the right mindset for your corpoate job though
<gog>
:|
<gog>
me a year ago "sweet it's optimal"
<heat>
what's the mindset? being nice?
<ChavGPT>
mon
<ChavGPT>
:D
<ChavGPT>
that's not being nice in the english speaking world
<zid>
Can I have an example of the two
<zid>
so I can pick the good one and scold the bad one
<ChavGPT>
vast majority of these sentences have an implied "you fucking retard" after them
<heat>
is the english speaking world to you al viro's emails?
<ChavGPT>
i think i already told you how native speakers operate in this manner
<ChavGPT>
but i'm going to do it again
<zid>
we love katamari reroll+ royal reverie is 25% off on steam..
<ChavGPT>
person asks, gets a response "looks great, good job"
<heat>
here's a nice tip: normal people take criticism really harshly
<ChavGPT>
then the guy who said that writes to his buddy "what a fucking retard"
<zid>
they do, it's odd
<zid>
don't give a shit about their craft, just their eggos
<heat>
programmers have a higher tolerance level but being nice is still good
<ChavGPT>
i see no problems with people being nice
<heat>
it's not giving a shit about a craft
<ChavGPT>
i'm saying they are normally not nice but they are pretending
<heat>
when you try hard and do something and someone tells you "ye mate this sucks" it stings
<sham1>
heat: your code is pessimal and you should feel bad
<heat>
see, that would hurt
<zid>
heat: 1000% disagree.
<zid>
If your focus was on improving, because you're crap, you'd welcome CC.
<zid>
Focused on the craft, not focused on the result, or the praise, etc
<ChavGPT>
you can deliver constructive criticism without making the person feel like shite
<ChavGPT>
the problem is that people who claim to do it mostly don't even by their own assesment
<ChavGPT>
just like when banning cussing makes people invite other ways of being nasty
<ChavGPT>
banning "harsh" comments invites creative ways of insulting people instead
<ChavGPT>
which people *do* take advantage of with plausible deniability
<sham1>
I think the problem there is there being constructive is in a way ill-defined
<zid>
englaise sil vous plait
<ChavGPT>
sham1: sure, but it boils down to: is this actionable and workign towards resolution
<ChavGPT>
"LOL GIT GUD KID" clearly is not
<ChavGPT>
"you need to read this and that chapter of 'programming for idio^Wpeople like you' is
<ChavGPT>
assming chapters at hand explain how to do something the person messed up
<heat>
getting criticism is a trial by fire and it stings harder the less you've got
<bslsk05>
git.kernel.org: kernel/git/ardb/linux.git - Unnamed repository; edit this file 'description' to name the repository.
* kof13
.oO( writes meta design patterns book )
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<zid>
concensus seems to be "yea, it's broken and nobody cares, it'd be nice to get rid of" contrasted against "but it's not actually doing any harm by being there undeleted"
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<gog>
wuh
<gog>
if there's code that needs deleting then delete it
<gog>
why preserve something that's rotted
<zid>
that's the thing, it doesn't need to be
<gog>
ok
<zid>
and it's probably easily repaired if anybody cares about ia64 next month
<gog>
oh
<zid>
but it *is* currently broken, and glibc wants to be rid of supporting it, etc
<gog>
i mean that's fair enough imo
<zid>
so now would be a good time to pull the trigger if it's going to eventually happen anyway
<gog>
can't keep bringing along niche platforms forever i guess