klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<Jari--> morning from Finland
<Jari--> time for coffee
<xenos1984> Good morning from Estonia!
<xenos1984> time for tea
<zid> nope, not falling for it, there isn't any place called estonia.
<xenos1984> It's virtual. E-stonia.
<zid> ah yea, eStonia's a real place
<zid> If you had said you lived in elbonia, I'd have believed that
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<xenos1984> Well, the language is kind of the same.
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<zid> poor spider in my room is on my spherical lampshade, just keeps doing laps
<zid> can't figure out how to get anywhere else
<moon-child> art imitates life
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<zid> spider suddenly stuck in flatland
<zid> It's the same spider that walked across me in the dark last night I am fairly sure
<zid> unless I have *multiple* 4 inch spiders in my room...
<zid> It's so big it has footstep noises
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<kazinsal> gonna make a new stab at doing some osdev stuff again, and I'm enforcing this by ordering some gear that will need me to have sorted out my core osdev shit before it arrives
<kazinsal> nothing particularly fancy, just a couple different intel NICs that have different PHYs and port counts, but enough that being able to do detection and stuff will be a key in making them work
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<geist> nice!
<geist> yeah, i sat down trying to get my e1000 driver working against real hardware and didn't make much progress
<geist> lots of details, lots of variants
<zid> rip, yea, I've always assumed my code wouldn't work on mine
<ChavGPT> ;)
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<kazinsal> I got mine working on a handful of single port variants but I've never tested against mutli-port ones
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<kazinsal> but they're cheap as hell on ebay now so I've got a couple dual ports and a quad port on the way
<kazinsal> that'
<kazinsal> that'll also let me fiddle around with link aggregation stuff
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<kazinsal> if I can get enough LACP working to make a cisco switch happy I'll call that a dramatic win
<kazinsal> all the cards are different OEM vendors too so I'll get a good number of PCI vendors to test against
<kazinsal> dell, lenovo, hpe
<kazinsal> when I started my osdev nos project I was heavily influenced in the interface sense by cisco, but since then I've been working a lot with juniper equipment, and I've fallen in love with it
<kazinsal> so I'm thinking my UX will end up being a lot more junos-like
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<Ermine> Wow, there's a thing called 'fsys' in itanium. Is it cool?
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<Ermine> gog: may I pet you
<gog> yes
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* Ermine pets gog
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<mcrod> hi
<sham1> hi
<mcrod> sham1: may I pet you
<sham1> Sure
* mcrod pets sham1
* sham1 wags tail
<zid> assolutely huge storm :o
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<heat> UNIX-boomer-est optimization i've ever done
<zid> '303/min'
<heat> onyx is a single threaded performance beast
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<zid> heat look at my storm
<zid> and say "ooh, big storrrrm!"
<zid> like a cat doing a stretch
<heat> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh bit storrrrrrrrrm im soooo scared
<heat> big*
<zid> fuck is that
<GeDaMo> OK, the thunderstorm view is more impressive https://www.windy.com/-Thunderstorms-thunder?thunder,52.912,-1.060,8
<zid> the pic I posted is better
<sham1> HeTo: your link is borked
<heat> wrong he
<heat> anyway link is borked cuz i force-pushed over it
* sham1 screams in git workflow
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<heat> why?
<heat> it was a PR
<mcrod> god I really like gitlab
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<heat> gosh
<heat> i love linux desktop
<mcrod> well
<mcrod> i forsake you my son.
<mcrod> also what are you getting me for my birthday today
<heat> was trying to open steam, it was crashing mysteriously, this triggered me to update
<heat> after the update, i opened steam, it *crashed* (and restarted) my whole desktop environment, opened steam again - it works
<heat> fucking brilliant
<heat> i give this a year of the linux desktop/10
<heat> mcrod, happy bday
<mcrod> thanks
<heat> you're the 2nd coolest person i know whose bday is today
<mcrod> it looks like uploading artifacts on gitlab doesn't forcibly zip them unlike github upload-artifact
<heat> thats BORING and BAD
<heat> toolchain.tar.zst.zip!!
<mcrod> but I don't know how predicable their URLs are
<mcrod> because I don't want someone needing a fucking API to figure out what pre-built toolchain to download
<mcrod> i know you had the same problem
<heat> yes i ignored it completely
<heat> github has the same issue
<heat> i dont care
<heat> hooman can figure it out
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<ChavGPT> name it Lonyx
<ChavGPT> linux, but worse
<mcrod> i had a feeling you were mjg
<ChavGPT> i don't know who that is
<ChavGPT> i'm joel spolsky
<sham1> fart fart fart fart
<ChavGPT> hey sham1 would you like to see a genz who mixes style changes with semantic changes?
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<ChavGPT> heat, take one of the few correct pages from bsd land
<ChavGPT> and add some asserts
<ChavGPT> {
<ChavGPT> - /* Get a reference to the file! */
<ChavGPT> - fd_get(f);
<ChavGPT> + /* file is already refe'd for us */
<ChavGPT> }
<ChavGPT> very linuxy of you
<ChavGPT> instead you could assert on refcount
<ChavGPT> which have the same effect as the lol comment *and* would validate it
<heat> how the fuck do i assert on refcount
<heat> assert(f->f_refcount > 1)?
<ChavGPT> in this case > 0/
<ChavGPT> or whatever
<ChavGPT> but yea
<heat> it's always going to be > 0
<heat> the file table holds one
<ChavGPT> you can be racing against someone who closes it
<ChavGPT> so it no logner does
<ChavGPT> shite trylock
<ChavGPT> re-reading in a cas loop is a classic anti-pattern
<ChavGPT> wtf that's your general spin routine
<ChavGPT> wait, you have *another* access to get the owner
<ChavGPT> dude that's some SOLARIS quality locks right there
<heat> i swear i didnt read the solaris internals mutex chapter
<ChavGPT> they love to avoidably touch the mutex
* ChavGPT is waiting for someone to claim if your locks are contended you already don't scale so it's fine for mutexes to suck
<ChavGPT> not-dear reader, i know you are out there
<heat> if your locks are contended you already don't scale so it's fine for mutexes to suck
<heat> really what pains me the most is the unlock routine
<heat> fucking hell
<heat> fyi it does a lock cmpxchg loop for that
<mcrod> i think i'm going to write a game of snake in assembly
<heat> cheers boss
<mcrod> no i'm scared :(
<heat> ChavGPT, btw isn't linux but worse freebsd's slogan already?
<mcrod> i'm sad that using freebsd on the desktop isn't such a good experience, at least for me
<heat> the only good desktop UNIX is solaris
<mcrod> i like my mac :(
<heat> oh and that
<heat> solaris and bastardized netfreebsd
<heat> netfreebsdmach
<ChavGPT> heat: no
<ChavGPT> mcrod: what is not workingout?
<ChavGPT> hw-wise you can get a setup which works fine
<ChavGPT> i don't know if there is any software which would only work on linux which you might want though
<mcrod> no I *can* run freebsd
<ChavGPT> you said it's not a good experience
<mcrod> but I can't run CLion well
<ChavGPT> so what's going on
<mcrod> and to firefox, bsd is a second class citizen
<mcrod> can't even use netflix
<mcrod> well that's not FF's fault
<mcrod> that's google's
<mcrod> honestly I'm happy with the way I have my system set up now, it's not like I absolutely cannot use linux or something
<ChavGPT> does netflix work on linux?
<mcrod> yes
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<mcrod> widevine doesn't support freebsd
<ChavGPT> thats just under chrome?
<heat> LMAO
<ChavGPT> linux binaries for chrome and firefox likely work with linux emul
<ChavGPT> so you could like use it that way
<Jari--> For cancer research systems, one could make a special hyperthreading Operaing System implementing over a million hardware threads on a single system. This approach needs to be completely different than the present single core and thread code we have now.
<ChavGPT> same for other stuff
<heat> Jari--, how does that help cancer research
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<Jari--> heat i.e. I have read about them using supercomputers
<heat> imagine not having netflix on your desktop
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<heat> jesse, we need to install linux
<ChavGPT> yeah, RCU bitch!
<zid> ooh huge clap of thunder out of nowhere
<zid> storm's well passed by now, this is a new one
<heat> ayo mr torvalds
<zid> Hope the wind turbines are okay, that's about where the map said it was, and it was LOUD
<mcrod> in this channel, zid is blown from britain to the united states
<gog> oof
<mcrod> gog: hi
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<heat> i wanna
<heat> i wanna write C
<heat> C++ is smelly and poopy
<Ermine> good desktop is wooden
<Ermine> c++ happens to have memory fences
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* bnchs whispers talloc to Ermine
<bnchs> talloc is the ultimate memory allocator
<mcrod> the sad thing is as I've learned doing embedded development
<mcrod> C is still the best way to write portable programs
<bnchs> that is true
<Ermine> this is not wgat
<Ermine> ...what I'm talking about
<mcrod> oh that was unrelated to anything you were saying
<heat> rmalloc is the ultimate memory allocator
<mcrod> i was just saying if you give a shit about portability, ANSI C I'm afraid
<heat> vmem will surpass all other allocators, Believe Me
<mcrod> there are tradeoffs like anything else
<mcrod> but there are still compilers in widespread use underneath your feet that somehow don't support C99
<mcrod> let alone, C++
<Ermine> mcrod: that was not to you
<heat> >embedded development
<mcrod> oh
<heat> you defeated yourself
<Ermine> q
<ChavGPT> embedded elopment
<mcrod> embedded development is a brain massage
<ChavGPT> my internal LLM expected damage, not massage
<Ermine> some people just allocate large chunks of memory and manage it themselves
<heat> text data bss dec hex filename
<heat> 1062592 262869 210776 1536237 1770ed kernel/vmonyx
<heat> do you like it mcrod
<heat> is it big
<mcrod> it is big
<Ermine> oniks
<mcrod> oink
<ChavGPT> c++yx
<ChavGPT> is the real name
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<heat> NO
<mcrod> what I really don't like is, if you're doing game development, you basically have to use C++ if you want to support directx
<mcrod> I'm going off on a tangent
<Ermine> cxxyx
<mcrod> but using directx through C
<mcrod> I'd rather be shot
<ChavGPT> heat: you abandon traidtion with c++
<ChavGPT> you POSER
<mcrod> :(
<Ermine> offyx when
<heat> ;_;
<ChavGPT> is that the namre after heat drps the projet
<ChavGPT> i applaud the idea
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<heat> >after heat drps the projet
<heat> when
<ChavGPT> now here is a riddle
<ChavGPT> was that supposed to be "drops" or "derps"
<ChavGPT> quite a puzzle innit
<heat> it was already derp to begin with
<ChavGPT> goodjobx
<ChavGPT> is my next kernel
<heat> you neve wrote one to begin with
<Ermine> vmgoodjobx ftfy
<heat> gengoodjobx
<Ermine> so theoretically there can be onyx and linux kernels on e.g. mmu-less targets
<heat> yeah but linux on mmu-less kernels is still called vmlinux
<heat> i think?
<heat> and onyx on mmu-less targets LMAO miss me with that shit
<Ermine> hence 'theoretically'
<nortti> did vm in vmunix mean MMU, or did it mean demand paging?
<nortti> because aiui a lot of early usage of "virtual memory" refers specifically to extending the usable memory through swapping
<Ermine> Idk, I'm younger than kernels that do not have 'vm' prefix
<nortti> looks like unix/32v (mmu but no demang paging) uses unix, while 3bsd (demand paging) uses vmunix
<Ermine> also, could it be that kernel and vmkernel reside on the same machine? Otherwise there's little sense in that prefix
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<nortti> I think they probably did during the development of 3bsd
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<Ermine> meanwhile, somewhy I have feeling that build_toolchain.sh uses only one thread by default, but it calls nproc correctly...
<heat> it definitely does not use one thread by default
<Ermine> Maybe it's just llvm files compiling slowly
<heat> oh, oh yes
<heat> enjoy the slowness
<heat> it is riveting
<heat> what cpu are you on btw?
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<ChavGPT> heat: i did
<ChavGPT> had printf
<ChavGPT> i think i hooked up to one interrupt
<ChavGPT> but i don't remember which
<ChavGPT> (or maybe to an exception handler?)
<ChavGPT> ye i think i caught div by 0
<Ermine> heat: i5-3470
<heat> yeah that is going to take a while haha
<heat> my CPU is 5 gens newer and still takes some 40-50 minutes without LTO
<zid> shame it won't fit an e5
<zid> to both of you, ofc
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<Ermine> heat: i'd like to upgrade my rig but I can't afford it rn
<zid> how much is a 3960x off ebay
<zid> wait not that
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<zid> yea, 3960x, amd stole the name so I got confused
<zid> dang, £34
<zid> 45*
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<zid> not worth, it's only an E5-1620 without ecc, and those are £15
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<gog> hi
<Ermine> hi gog, may I pet you
* gog prr
<Ermine> heat: is your processor i5 or cooler?
<gog> Ermine: prr means yes in this instance
<Ermine> okay, seems like race condition
* Ermine pets gog
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<heat> wdym cooler
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<zid> i7
<zid> or AMD AMD AMD
<zid> heat: did you ever figure out how to get onyx to boot on a normal ass machine (aka, a gentoo machine with full dev tools)
<zid> s/boot/build
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<heat> wdym
<heat> it Should Build(tm)
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<heat> like no shit it has deps because it needs a full toolchain you don't have + fucking gn
<heat> (which I regret ever using but for now im stuck with it)
<zid> fucking gn?
<zid> you tried to build it, I was missing some weird package
<zid> cdrtools or something, rather than fsutils
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<Ermine> cooler = i7 or i9
<zid> Ermine: is an E5 cooler?
<ChavGPT> ey heat
<Ermine> somewhy llvm build fails to find stdlib.h, stdio.h and sys/mman.h . I'll probably try with clean clone
<ChavGPT> before: total:70898183
<ChavGPT> after: total:220445074
<ChavGPT> who is your daddy
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<heat> ChavGPT, what is that
<heat> Ermine, when building compiler-rt? make sure the sysroot is set up
<Ermine> I've set it up
<Ermine> this argument bothers me: --sysroot=/home/peter/code/onyx/src/sysroots/x86_64
<heat> i forgot
<heat> see scripts/ci/setup_sysroots.sh
<heat> this is a typical i forgor moment
<heat> btw no need to rebuild the whole of llvm, just -c (idk if you've seen that)
<Ermine> I also apparently need rv64 sysroot
<heat> yeah cuz it builds all llvm targets sorry
<heat> it's just a clang moment you know how it is
<Ermine> I see
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<Hammdist> does exception handler (e.g., for page faults) on aarch64 have to save and restore processor flags? or are there separate flag registers for el0/el1?
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<heat> you need to save spsr
* Ermine spsr
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<heat> Ermine, if you want kernal work tell me
<heat> thanks for the docs btw!
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<kof13> > screams in git workflow i think i have mentioned here before, there are audio -> midi converters, which make large files, but in the modern world it is perfectly feasible to construct a device with which to speak in piano
<kof13> and presumably works with whatever instrument as well
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* cloudowind greets everyone
<kof13> hi cloudowind . you always greet but what are your master plans?
<Ermine> heat: yeah, I want some kernal work
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<heat> Ermine, issue #85 is a bit of chorework but easy, issue #25 is medium and requires some understanding and rework of bits of the network stack
<heat> then there's lots of pending ideas on every subsystem that i haven't written down
<heat> so if you tell me you wanna work on mm or fs there's something for you, for sure
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