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<thuna`>
At what point (and in which functions) are subforms macroexpanded?
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<pillton>
clhs 3.1.2.1.2
<mange>
I don't really understand the question, but I believe macros are handed their arguments unexpanded, and the macroexpansion is itself expanded recursively.
<thuna`>
mange: That's what I had assumed too, but the notes for MACROEXPAND and MACROEXPAND-1 says that they only expand immediate macros and don't recurse into their arguments
<mange>
That is correct, but those methods are not the entirety of the macroexpansion process done by the evaluator/compiler.
<mange>
... methods. Ugh, I've been doing too much Ruby.
<thuna`>
pillton: Where in there does it specify when the macroexpansion occurs?
<mange>
MACROEXPAND and MACROEXPAND-1 expand at one level, but don't do the recursive bit.
<mange>
It doesn't specify the recursive bit, either, because the recursion actually comes from the next section "Function Forms" where it says "The subforms in the cdr of the original form are evaluated in left-to-right order in the current lexical and dynamic environments."
<thuna`>
Sorry, I meant macroexpansion of subforms. Though, the answer seems to be when you are evaluating the subforms, which I imagine would rule out recursive macroexpansion prior to evaluation as an option
<pillton>
In my opinion, Section 3.1 of the hyperspec is arguably the most important section of the hyperspec.
<pillton>
From Section 3.1: "Evaluation can be understood in terms of a model in which an interpreter recursively traverses a form performing each step of the computation as it goes."
<thuna`>
So, yeah, recursive macroexpansion just doesn't happen at all, it seems
<mange>
Is there a question behind this question? What are you trying to do?
<pillton>
thuna`: What were you expecting to happen? Can you use the pastebin to avoid the use of commas?
<thuna`>
I have macros in my DSL, and I realized while writing tests that I didn't expand subforms, so took a look at SBCL's MACROEXPAND and then the CLHS and realized that MACROEXPAND wasn't _supposed_ to expand subforms. I thought that subforms _were_ expanded at some point, though, so when I couldn't find where that was happening I figured someone here might know.
<thuna`>
Now I realize that I was mistaken about the whole thing
<mange>
Do you want subforms to be expanded? The only reason to do so would be if your macro wants to inspect the result of a macroexpansion in a subform, right? Do you want/need to do that?
<thuna`>
pillton: I was thinking (LIST (SETF *FOO* T) (FOO)) would macroexpand to (LIST (SETF *FOO* T) NIL) [because at this point *FOO* is NIL] and then that would evaluate as (T NIL)
<pillton>
If you want to talk about macros, then I suggest you avoid talking about "macros in your DSL" as a domain specific language would have its own evaluation model which may or may not be the same as the evaluation model in common lisp.
<thuna`>
mange: Some minor changes are needed but there's no reason why subforms have to expand in this situation. I was just caught off-guard a bit
<thuna`>
pillton: Yes, it is a bit confusing to mix these together, sorry about that. I just wanted to provide the context.
<thuna`>
I think(?) in this case I can just use CL's macro semantics.
<pillton>
Your example (LIST (SETF *FOO* T) (FOO)) is very complicated because of the way you have specified the macro FOO.
<pillton>
In fact that output of it will change depending on whether it is compiled first and then evaluated, or evaluated.
<pillton>
I don't have the time to explain it in detail to you, but I suggest you spend some time on that example.
* thuna`
is looking at 3.2.2.2
<thuna`>
So if being interpreted it macroexpands as it evaluates and if being compiled it recursively macroexpands before any of it is evaluated
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<mange>
Does the standard require evaluation to have that outcome? Or could the evaluator, if it wanted, do a "two-pass" evaluation by expanding all the macros first, and then evaluating the resulting forms?
<thuna`>
Luckily for pure macros (which I assume is the majority) the distinction doesn't matter
<mange>
It has performance implications. :)
<thuna`>
EVAL explicitly calls `MACROEXPAND-1'-based macroexpansion, so I suppose it mustn't do two passes?
<thuna`>
s/calls/uses/
<thuna`>
Or maybe not, if EVAL is allowed to compile first
<thuna`>
The glossary entry for "evaluation" seems to imply that it can, at least: "a conforming implementation might legitimately have only a compiler and no interpreter"
<thuna`>
Though given I have SB-EXT:*EVALUATOR-MODE* as :COMPILE, I would have thought that my example would return (T NIL)
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<pillton>
mange: Yes in the evaluation example since LIST is a symbol naming a function. From CLHS 3.1.2.1.2.3 have "The subforms in the cdr of the original form are evaluated in left-to-right order in the current lexical and dynamic environments".
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<JoeBiden364920>
Hey guys... Joe Biden here. I've decided to step down from the White House to focus on other projects. Billionaires are a threat to democracy, so check out https://BidenCash.st to put them in the bullseye. Keep an eye on the CNN inauguration for a promo code!
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<basicnpc>
We have ansi-test to test standard CL. How about MOP/CLOS?
<Colleen>
really need to)
<Colleen>
basicnpc: phoe said at 2025.01.06 22:26:00: in order to make a cl-style condition system in any language, you need dynamic binding (if you have any equivalent of unwind-protect, you can implement them yourself), non-local returns (throwing and exceptions as understood in C++ will do), and lexical closures (mostly for efficiency; you can do without, if you
<younder>
How do exceptions react to multiple thread environment? Wont they always advance down the call stack of the recipient that throws the exception?
<beach>
younder: Are you talking C++ here?
<younder>
No
<beach>
younder: Then what?
<bike>
we have conditions, not exceptions. and signaling a condition is basically thread local, yes.
<younder>
So errors came far from where thet originated.
<younder>
s/thet/they/
<bike>
i don't know what that means.
<basicnpc>
Question 2: Why isn't the class STANDARD-OBJECT a superclass of the class FUNCTION? Shouldn't each function instance be a standard-object instance? (http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/graph.png)
<basicnpc>
(I read log.)
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<beach>
basicnpc: 1. I am unaware of any standard test suite for MOP functionality.
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<beach>
basicnpc: In Clostrophilia, I created a subclass SIMPLE-FUNCTION which is a subclass of FUNCALLABLE-STANDARD-OBJECT and I use it for functions created by (FUNCTION (LAMBDA (...) ...), but perhaps that would be too radical a change at the time CLOS was introduced into pre-ANSI Common Lisp implementations.
<beach>
younder: When a condition is signaled, a handler for it is search for, and the most recently established such handler is invoked. And, yes, the dynamic environment is involved, which is thread specific.
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<jackdaniel>
if cl were specified as multithreaded, then signal could accept an argument denoting the target thread to provide an interface for asynchronous interruptions
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<bike>
jackdaniel: that's actually what i've been doing in clasp, though with a different function
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<basicnpc>
beach Thank you.
<basicnpc>
What are some nontrivial usage of MOP? So far I've only seen some slight modification of MAKE-INSTANCE.. e.g. a database class would like to keep tract on how many instances are created so far.
<basicnpc>
But that's a bit shallow. I wonder if there are some real-world usage that requires some deeper change of standard-class behavior.
<phoe>
basicnpc: make a class whose instance storage is not backed by a vector, but by a hashtable, allowing memory-efficient storage of sparse slots; define your own modular funcallable instances; define slots with custom options of yours, e.g. allowing serializers to preserve some slot values and drop others
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<jackdaniel>
basicnpc: you may find some examples on my blog at turtleware.eu
<jackdaniel>
proxy generic functions, some unusual method combinations etc
<ixelp>
Sealable Metaobjects for Common Lisp - YouTube
<phoe>
you can no longer dynamically extend them at runtime with new functionality, but you can make them go fast by statically optimizing generic dispatch
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