jackdaniel changed the topic of #commonlisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | Wiki: <https://www.cliki.net> | IRC Logs: <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/libera/%23commonlisp> | Cookbook: <https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook> | Pastebin: <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/>
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<craigbro> CL is from a land of vendor, you better clone, or you better submodule
<craigbro> for the australians... or those at work
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<NotThatRPG> dnhester26: Sorry to have missed your note -- try to catch me tomorrow or more likely the day after: I have a lot of meetings tomorrow.
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<thuna`> If SYMBOL names a constant variable, is (EVAL SYMBOL) equivalent to (SYMBOL-VALUE SYMBOL)?
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<beach> It would have to be (SYMBOL-VALUE 'SYMBOL).
<beach> Unless I am not thinking straight, they should give the same result, but the amount of work would be different.
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<thuna`> Right, that was what I meant, SYMBOL holds a symbol which names a constant variable. I had missed the note for SYMBOL-VALUE, but yeah, that says definitively that the two are equivalent: "SYMBOL-VALUE can be used to get the value of a constant variable."
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<beach> Yes, I see.
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<smlckz> phoe: why was plist tightly coupled with symbols, is there some historical reasons behind it? why not just let plist be used standalone?
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<beach> smlckz: It was used for various things associated with symbols that we now have SYMBOL-FUNCTION, SYMBOL-VALUE, etc for.
<beach> If all you had were standalone plists, then you would need another dictionary (like a hash table) to associate the plist with the symbol.
<smlckz> Let me rephrase, what was/is the usecase of symbol-plist?
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<jackdaniel> you may think of symbols as an ancestor of instances and plist as an ad-hoc list of slots
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<beach> smlckz: Suppose you have a function call like (F ...). Then the evaluator would search for the function definition of F on the property list of the symbol F.
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<jackdaniel> interestingly enough some protocols define a slot storing the object's plist for that reason -- you may associate any type of additional information with the object (i.e it is forward-extensible without subclassing)
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<beach> smlckz: The property list of a symbol could then have a property SUBR for a compiled function, EXPR for an interpreted function, FSUBR for something similar to a macro, FEXPR, etc.
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<smlckz> beach: Can you show me some relevant code to clearly understand what you are saying?
<jackdaniel> my troll-sense is tingling :) /me gets back to work
<beach> smlckz: Not really, this is what the compiler does, so it is not used so much in application code. If the compiler sees (F ...) it generates code like (funcall (getprop 'F 'SUBR) ..)
<thuna`> To implement symbol properties you either maintain a separate mapping from symbols to values for each property or you maintain a single mapping from symbols to _mappings from properties to values_, which also allows you to use new properties without having to explicitly create and maintain a separate mapping.
<thuna`> From there the choice of mapping from properties to values is for the most part arbitrary. It may as well have been an alist, but it ended up a plist.
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<thuna`> (This is disregarding historical context so do correct me if I'm misunderstanding something)
<beach> smlckz: And something like (DEFUN F (...) ...) would expand to (PUTPROP 'F 'SUBR (COMPILE (LAMBDA (...) ...).
<beach> smlckz: Exactly as we would now use SYMBOL-FUNCTION and (SETF SYMBOL-FUNCTION).
<smlckz> So, have I understood it correctly? instead of seperate *tables* (hash or otherwise) of values, functions and so forth.. you associate tables with individual symbols (in a single table of (global? package?) environment), each holding the properties they need..
<beach> smlckz: Yes, as thuna` explained. But it works only for mappings where the keys are symbols then.
<smlckz> Ah
<smlckz> Then what was jackdaniel talking about with 'ancestor of instances' or 'forward-extensible without subclassing'?
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<beach> Well, jackdaniel probably used the term "instance" to mean standard object, so you could used the property list of a symbol to store what you would now use slots in standard objects for.
<beach> *could use
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<smlckz> Oh..
<beach> But standalone property lists would probably be a better choice then, because objects don't always have global names.
<smlckz> So much to learn ;)
<beach> There is a lot of historical baggage that explains some features of Common Lisp.
<beach> I know Maclisp used symbol property lists for the stuff I listed. Not sure about other Lisp dialects that were used as inspiration for Common Lisp.
<jackdaniel> I've meant any instance with slots
<thuna`> Going from environments of the form ((SYMBOL . VALUE)...) to ((SYMBOL PROP1 VALUE1...)...) seems like the natural step when adding additional namespaces. I always assumed the process went something along those lines
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<mivanchev> hey, i know this is sbcl specific but does someone know what the difference between unix-fast-select and unix-select is?
<mivanchev> they are in the sb-unix package
<smlckz> All instances of (subclasses of) standard-class is value of (sub)type of standard-object: have I understood it correctly?
<smlckz> No, isn't standard-class a metaclass.. ugh
<jackdaniel> instances of instances of standard class are standard objects, but instances of standard class are also standard objects ,)
<jackdaniel> (because class itself is a standard object); that said structure instances and built-in instances doesn't have to be standard objects
<smlckz> sigh
<jackdaniel> on this diagram: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/graph.png function is a built-in class, while standard-object is a standard class
<jackdaniel> here's a more complete diagram of types: http://sellout.github.io/2012/03/03/common-lisp-type-hierarchy including also classes that are not directly relevant to metaobject protocol
<ixelp> Common Lisp Type Hierarchy ←
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<mivanchev> anyone to recommend a good way to destructure (cons 1 2) ?
<mivanchev> destructuring-bind complains it's not a list
<beach> ,(destructuring-bind (a . b) (cons 1 2) (list b a))
<ixelp> => (2 1)
<mivanchev> thanks beach! if only this would work with dolist too :/
<beach> Well, it is not a proper list because the CDR is not a CONS nor NIL.
<mivanchev> yeah I got it, I was complaining dolist doesn't support destructuring :)
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<beach> I don't understand. Do you have a list of CONS cells?
<mivanchev> yes
<beach> Then use DESTRUCTURING-BIND on each element.
<mivanchev> yes
<beach> Why should that support be in DOLIST?
<mivanchev> convenience
<beach> So should DOLIST also support destructuring arbitrary other objects like symbols and standard objects according to this reasoning?
<beach> That doesn't seem reasonable. It is better to have orthogonal operators that combine in arbitrary ways.
<mivanchev> well loop supports it
<beach> Indeed it does.
<beach> So use LOOP instead.
<mivanchev> yes i think that'll be the way to go
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<mange> I appreciate Clojure's decision to make most (all?) bindings permit destructuring. It's convenient. Using DESTRUCTURING-BIND is annoying to do in the middle of a let*.
<phoe> which is why various user-written binding macros do that too, it's pretty darn convenient
<jackdaniel> (defmacro dolist* (ll seq &optional result) `(dolist (,g ,seq ,result) (destructuring-bind ,ll ,g ,@body)))
<jackdaniel> plus add the missing part
<jackdaniel> like a gensym and a body parameter
<phoe> I can kind-of get the idea that sometimes you just want to bind ten values in a row, rather than think whether to use let, let*, flet, labels, macrolet, destructuring-bind, multiple-value-bind, with-slots, with-accessors, cffi:with-foreign-object and all that
<jackdaniel> the next step is to make it work on sequences, by expanding body to cont and calling map
<phoe> as long as you're willing to pay the overhead of understanding your custom* binding macro, that's gonna be useful
<phoe> *take note of "xkcd standards" of course
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<jackdaniel> nest macro mitigates the pain somehow, given that you often need to supply the information about the binding type anyway
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<mivanchev> hey, is (declare (integer foo)) a legal type hint of foo is a variable holding the result of (get-internal-real-time) ? This is regarding this rewrite of StumpWM's IO loop I'm doing https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm/pull/1222/files
<ixelp> [WIP] Reworked IO loop, simplification & removing restarts. by MIvanchev · Pull Request #1222 · stumpwm/stumpwm · GitHub
<mivanchev> It's already rock solid but someone suggested an optimization
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<beach> Yes, GET-INTERNAL-REAL-TIME returns a non-negative integer.
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<mivanchev> OK, thanks
<beach> You could even use the type (INTEGER 0).
<mivanchev> lower bound specified you mean?
<scymtym> out of curiosity: what was wrong with the restarts?
<beach> mivanchev: Yes.
<mivanchev> scymtym, why would you use restarts in the IO loop of a WM?
<jackdaniel> I'd prefer a restart over crash, just saying
<mivanchev> a restart of what, you can just restart your WM
<scymtym> mivanchev: i haven't written a wm but i use restarts in all main loop type things. helps to recover without losing state during development
<jackdaniel> preferably something like (with-restart (quit) (loop (with-restart (retry) ,@body))
<mivanchev> I understand your points but it's not quite so applicable here. Gracefully continuing an IO loop is quite an ordeal
<mivanchev> maybe the top level restart could make some sense but the deep nested handler restarts are 100% nonsense
<scymtym> mivanchev: thanks for explaining your point of view
<jackdaniel> of course restarts indicate that something may go wrong, so that's clearly an indication that the code is not perfect ;)
<mivanchev> besides, how would you even hook this stuff while X11 is running
<jackdaniel> hence, perfecting ones code means stripping it also from restarts
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<jackdaniel> (and error handlers)
<mivanchev> (it's also a quite time sensitive piece of code, i'm usuaully all for restarts)
<mivanchev> beach, does (declare (type (integer 0) ... include nil?
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<beach> No, why would it?
<beach> It means integers that are greater than or equal to 0.
<mivanchev> how can I include it?
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<jackdaniel> (or positive-integer null)
<beach> (or null (integer 0)) is a valid type specifier.
<jackdaniel> tfu, (integer 0) i
<jackdaniel> s/tfu/silly me/
<mivanchev> like this ? (declare (type (or nil (integer 0)) lowest-timeout))
<beach> I said NULL, not NIL.
<bike> (or null (integer 0)). nil is the empty type, that's different.
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<jackdaniel> maxima in a web browser: https://maxima-on-wasm.pages.dev/
<ixelp> Maxima
<jackdaniel> (not mine, see about page)
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<mivanchev> thanks friends, didnt even know type declarations exist
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<beach> mivanchev: So you haven't used Common Lisp very long?
<mivanchev> 3 years now daily
<mivanchev> for my desktop needs
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<beach> Hmm.
<mivanchev> my StumpWM config is 20 files with tests and whatnot, just never came across a (declare (type
<bjorkintosh> 20??
<beach> mivanchev: That surprises me a little.
<mivanchev> yeah, it's a full featured DM with automounts, bluetooth, CPU, disk, sound, languages, placement rules, shutdown rules whatnot
<beach> What does "DM" mean in this context?
<mivanchev> beach, the way is different for everyone i guess, granted i never had a linear learning process, just bits from here and there
<mivanchev> Desktop Manager aka Desktop Environment is maybe better suited
<beach> Thanks.
<mivanchev> do you not recall 1 year ago us arguing about slimv and Vim :)
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<beach> Me? Nope.
<beach> I couldn't have argued much since I know neither.
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<screwlisp> Lispy gopher climate today is going to be low energy, I just want to talk about how myself and others basically use computers (emacs slime, recompiling asdf systems, and so forth) after Kent's haiku. https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio in about half an hour.
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<craigbro> oh hey, I was wondering if you were around, us emacs.ch refugees...
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<dnhester26> NotThatRPG: just saw your message, will try tomorrow
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<tux0r> time for another noob question! :-) assuming i have a list of cons like ((url . "https://foo.bar") (store . 1)) and i want to map that to a postmodern insert query, i.e. (postmodern:query (:insert-into 'my-table :set 'url "https://foo.bar" 'store 1)), do i have to traverse the list with (loop) and (car)/(cdr) or is there a more elegant solution?