<pillton>
|3b|: Did you get your floating point number formatter to your liking?
* |3b|
doesn't remember, i think "to my liking" wasn't well enough defined in the first place
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<beach>
Was Quaviver rejected?
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<|3b|>
beach: if you mean me, i just wanted to print some numbers quickly and adding a lib just for that would have been excessive. I just got stuck on sbcl having an annoying interpretation of the spec for ~e (or whatever it was, have mostly forgotten about it by now)
<beach>
I see.
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<Shinmera>
beach: Does Quaviver handle stuff like printing floats with comma intervals as in 1'000.000,001 ? Iirc FORMAT doesn't have anything to do that.
<beach>
I don't know. It was worked on by paulapatience and yitzi.
<Shinmera>
Ah, ok!
<beach>
I know it has various possible formats, like C++, etc.
<Shinmera>
Fancy! :)
<beach>
Indeed.
<Shinmera>
I'm just idly musing anyway. Staring at some timing data printed as floats and it's hard for my pea brain to grasp numbers like that without comma intervals
<beach>
My main use for it will be in the SICL printer to print floating-point numbers using very fast algorithms.
<Shinmera>
Yea I figured
<beach>
I would prefer something like a narrow space between thousands. Commas and points vary with the country.
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<Shinmera>
Unfortunately so, yeah.
<jackdaniel>
the contemporary way of printing numbers is to check the system locale and use the localized format (so i.e the user can copy-paste the number in some document)
<ixelp>
GitHub - Shinmera/system-locale: A library to retrieve the system's configured locale and language settings
<Shinmera>
*a library
<jackdaniel>
there's also a dillema whether the locale should be used for reading user input or not
<beach>
Stuff like that doesn't always work for me, given that I originated from one culture, lived for a while in a second one, and ended up in a third one. I don't much like the French way of writing dates, for instance. It, too, is ambiguous.
<jackdaniel>
and that adds to reader's complexity, because it is not obvious whether your read a program (with arbitrary author's locale) or user input
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<jackdaniel>
when you work i.e as a clerk and use software, then you expect that dates will be whatever is expected from official documents; on the other hand one could argue that this formatting is "bussiness logic", hence not a bussiness of the programming language level formatter
<jackdaniel>
in any case some programming languages do adhere to the configured locale
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<jackdaniel>
(or rather some standard library implementations)
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<jackdaniel>
s/your read/your read/
<paulapatience>
Shinmera: I believe at least some of the C++ formats can print the apostrophe, for thousands, but I don't see anything in the code for commas for thousandths. (yitzi wrote this part of Quaviver.)
<Shinmera>
Ok!
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<flip214>
Can a symbol-macro look at its environment and find out how it's being used? I'd need to see whether it's a (SETF foo) or (SETF (aref foo))
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<mange>
I don't believe so.
<mange>
The symbol macro can expand to a normal macro call, but I don't think they can see their context either, so I can't think of a way to do it.
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<bike>
flip214: symbol macros can't do that. what are you trying to do? maybe there's another way to make it work.
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<yottabyte>
I'm working with this public web api, and when I make a curl request in my terminal, everything works fine, but when I use dexador:get, it gives me the error "ERROR 12044: Client auth cert needed"
<yottabyte>
the url is https, if that matters
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<yottabyte>
I did -v in my curl request to see if there was some ssl certificate or key being sent in the request, there was not
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<Shinmera>
they might be culling your user-agent string
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<yottabyte>
as in not allowing my user-agent to make a request?
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<yottabyte>
wow. mad rude
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<yottabyte>
okay, I tried to set my user agent in dexador to be the same thing curl in my terminal is, same error. so I think that's not it
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<aeth>
Plus, with locale, there's no way to force on the actually-correct (by standards) way to represent dates (ISO 8601). You can set your locale to Canada and hope it doesn't mess up too much else because some Canadian locales use ISO 8601. But it likely messes up stuff.
<aeth>
And if you wanted a non-Canadian way to represent numbers but the "Candian" (actually ISO 8601) way to represent dates, I think you're out of luck.
<aeth>
Modern systems seem to be allergic to allowing too much configuration, though. Like configuring each relevant thing separately.
<younder>
Configuration is complexity.
<younder>
It makes sense to me. Cosider the points in software each edit can influence.
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<younder>
It grows 'potentially' exponentially with the options.
<younder>
A BIGASS nosir to me
<younder>
from me
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<aeth>
If poorly done, yes.
<aeth>
If you can't design things well, then not allowing the user any freedom at all is the only way to go. Which seems to be the current resignation, that things can't be designed well.
<younder>
aah that is a cheap pun
<aeth>
But for this particular issue, a Lisp system wouldn't have to have the same limitations of the other systems. It could just use "locale" as a shorthand for autoconfiguring a bunch of things at once, which could individually be overriden, since it's unlikely that someone agrees with everything in their region's defaults.
<younder>
Were not superheros, were coders
<aeth>
I wouldn't be surprised if KDE works as I described (except when it has to interface with the UNIX/C world) because KDE notoriously lets you configure basically everything.
<aeth>
Even today, when it's unfashionable.
<younder>
Lokk at JackDainiel 20 years and still no reliable McClim
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<bjorkintosh>
it's more analogous to gardening. grow a little bit, remove some weeds, mix in more seeds ... it's peaceful and zen-like, really.
<bjorkintosh>
no rush.
<younder>
Sorry to rat him out but that actually pisses me off.
<contrapunctus>
younder: how is McCLIM not "reliable"? 🤔
<aeth>
younder: The good thing about the current obsession with minimalism is that the bar gets lower every year in UI as more well-designed things are eroded and pretty much the only things that seem to work better are UI scaling and font rendering.
<aeth>
And even something that looks "90s" (as in dated, from the perspective of 2010) looks better than 80s-style UI minimalism of today. At least, for people who are sick of minimalism, which was refreshing at first.
<bjorkintosh>
contrapunctus: the community garden is not growing what he wants. emphasis on community. all gardeners welcome!
<younder>
Like I can't use it for 10 minutes without crashing it. Like the menu's suddenly don't work. etc. etc.
<aeth>
Probably because it's too ambitious, e.g. multibackend, instead of bottom-up (but this would probably exclude Mac and/or Windows users since both have significant differences from "normal" systems)
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<aeth>
And multi-backend would probably also explain if people can't reproduce your experiences (different backend)
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<aeth>
(Too ambitious won't mean it won't work, but it does explain the time involved)
<younder>
Jack Dainel is invlved yes. And thei is pretty much it iI see.
<younder>
One person on that buggy winows system
<younder>
I think I see his wiew it is just never enogh
<younder>
nuff truth
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<contrapunctus>
younder: have you reported that to the developers?
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<younder>
JackDaiel is not thrilled but informed.
<jackdaniel>
younder: you can't even spell my nick nor the project name
<younder>
there you go
<jackdaniel>
in any case McCLIM is rather reliable, I don't know what you've tried to crash it, but report an issue instead of yapping
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<younder>
I don't report these things for thrills Jack.
<jackdaniel>
in any case I did warn you yesterday, and given that you are still antogonizing me
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<aeth>
I think we'll eventually see a reversal of worse-is-better at some point because we've basically had a stagnation, especially on desktop, since web/mobile/VR/AR/AI/literally-anything-else has become sexy and so desktop no longer gets meaningful commercial competition, let alone rushed competition that can spread like a "virus" before the proper solution is even written. No need to get the worse-is-better
<aeth>
solution first (second, third, tenth) to market when the market is so mature.
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<aeth>
But "not properly 1.0 for 30-50 years" is exactly the sort of thing that could win in the much longer long run.
<aeth>
(0.9.8 apparently)
<jackdaniel>
it is as good moment as any other, so just saying that a release with thread-safe streams for drawing and writing is imminent
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<paulapatience>
aeth: How goes your vector DSL?
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<aeth>
paulapatience: I almost have CPU/GPU parity now. Then I can add branching, looping, and a limited form of higher order functions.
<aeth>
At which point, there are several directions I can go in, such as generalizing beyond single-floats.
<aeth>
In the medium term, I'll probably look to optimize things like (* scalar matrix1 matrix2 matrix3) which, as written, would go (* (* (* scalar matrix1) matrix2) matrix3) and allocate 3 matrices when only one needs to be allocated (and, actually, zero need to be allocated if the input matrices aren't used again, allowing one to be reused for the result), although I'm not sure if the GPU, with built-in
<aeth>
matrix types, needs that optimization.
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<paulapatience>
aeth: Good to hear!
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<paulapatience>
I've been busy the last few months with non-programming activities, but I recently resumed working on my Clasp-based wrapper for MFEM, which is a finite element library. I wrote a simulation using it for one of my PhD papers, and the interactivity of Lisp is a life-saver when debugging issues.
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<clothespin>
Shinmera here?
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<Shinmera>
barely
<clothespin>
my bad shinmera, didn't know you were a girl. apologies.
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<Shinmera>
Me neither for the longest time, that's how it goes.
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<clothespin>
i still do know what syscog does
<clothespin>
*dont
<Shinmera>
they do software for transportation planning and so on
<clothespin>
ic
<Shinmera>
afaiu they recently (some years ago) switched from LW to SBCL
<Shinmera>
and their primary platform, due to clients, is windows
<Shinmera>
they've done a number of presentations at ELS if you're curious.
<clothespin>
do you know anyone over there i could email?
<clothespin>
if they are a stakeholder to the performance/features of sbcl for windows i should talk to them about what i'm trying to get done
<Shinmera>
I'm sure they would appreciate it in the very least :)
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<Shinmera>
As for me, I'd have to benchmark. While it's true that my games are more cpu bound than gpu, I doubt it would be a significant issue. I feel like your bigger hurdle is going to be convincing Doug to merge this rather than working on a cleaner solution as he imagines it.
<Shinmera>
Anyway, good luck! I should head off to sleep.
<clothespin>
well I'm not against having charles port the x86 null-tn branch as-is to win32 and leaving the branch unmerged with master while the sbcl devels think about the future
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<Shinmera>
Well, it's just kind of a nightmare to keep up with upstream.