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<jackdaniel>
if I had an euro for each time people complain about copyleft licenses (but not having problems with fully closed software), then I'd have a nice unicode coffee
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<beach>
The negative attitude among Common Lisp people toward anything GPL makes me sad.
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<aeth>
LGPL seems to have a more negative attitude, justifiably so because of the, uh, complications
<aeth>
there's the LLGPL which shouldn't be necessary due to the FSF's stance, but the LGPL as intended makes packaging way more complicated because the typical way to package is to dump it all in one image
<aeth>
the GPL stuff just seems to be in line with the general attitude in the Microsoft Github era of open source
<beach>
aeth: Just don't use xGPL stuff if you don't want to. What's the problem?
<aeth>
the only problem is when there's a basic, core, low-level library that's recommended (e.g. defstar for easier type declarations) that's GPL that you want to use in a non-GPL library... and now there's 10 permissively licensed clones and no consensus
<aeth>
but that seems to be the only time it comes up, actually
<beach>
But, but, the reason it is GPL is so that people who want to use it in their non-GPL library can't! Just get over it.
<aeth>
right
<aeth>
In the case of DEFSTAR, I didn't complain about it. I simply made my own version of type-declarationed DEFUN that's better in every way instead. Under the MIT license. Which is the way to do it.
<beach>
"I am complaining because this person who doesn't want me to use the code the way I would like to use it, won't let me use it the way I want to"
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<jackdaniel>
right, that's my main issue - people who don't use gpl are very vocal about it; I don't see a chorus of people complaining about closed source software when LW or ACL is mentioned, but each time GPL pops up someone has to mention that they stay away from it
<jackdaniel>
proverbial "I'm vegan" kind of thing
<beach>
I totally agree.
<aeth>
people treat LW and ACL worse and basically avoid it entirely
<hayley>
Nowadays people complain about complaining about closed source software.
<jackdaniel>
touche :) time to fix a breakfast
<aeth>
My personal stance on LW and ACL is that I'll port my stuff to them if they pay me. Because I'm sure not going to pay for their full versions (and the trial versions are very limited) just to do free work for them.
<aeth>
But I think most people just don't even consider them at all.
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<aeth>
Given my experiences keeping things running on ECL and CCL and SBCL, it's unlikely that they work out of the box on LW and ACL without at least a few slight changes. Or possibly even using different third party dependencies if those break.
<jackdaniel>
I think that the point missed you, replace my remark about LW and ACL with "help me with OSX and/or Windows"
<aeth>
oh, porting to Windows is just an unfortunate side effect of that being where the users are
<jackdaniel>
or anything basically
<jackdaniel>
again, not my point; I'm not saying that porting to windows is a bad thing
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<edwlan[m]>
My experience with LW is that most stuff on quicklisp that I care about just works
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<green_>
The LLGPL is weird. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think is solves any problems, and it seems to ignore a big one -- Lisp macros. The GNU C++ libraries have a similar problem with C++ templates, which get embedded in the user's code, and make it impossible to satisfy the relinking requirements. They solve this by granting a special exception that says template instantiation doesn't impact licensing
<green_>
of your code. If I was aiming for an LGPL-like Lisp license I would have done the same thing. GPL + Lisp Exception that allows linking and macro expansion.
<green_>
I wrote the GNU Classpath exception license that Java uses for similar reasons.
<jackdaniel>
(and yeah, llgpl only adds confusion instead of clarifying anything)
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<Nilby>
I know it's farfetched, but imagine getting paid when software that took you years to write is used in proprietary code.
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<ogamita>
Nilby: even if that's thru an AI? :-)
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<Nilby>
ogamita: Sure. Then anyone who published any code gets some.
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<ogamita>
Nilby: well, assuming the AI traces where it learned something, and can dispatch the money proportionnaly to each contribution :-)
<splittist>
just like novelists do for all the authors of the works they based their works on
<ogamita>
It's simplier to just give everybody basic revenue, and share. Projects don't need corporation or capitalism to be motivated. Elon doesn't work for the money, but to go to Mars, and lots of people share this goal and want to help. Resources can be allocated upon some kind of democratic (or concerned parties) decision.
<jackdaniel>
because all novelists are capable of (/me checks notes) reading and writing hundreds of books per day
* splittist
volunteers to be on the distribution working group of the committee for public safety
<ogamita>
Hard to do for a natural intelligence (you need an academic to trace references, and have long lists of thanks), but it should be trivial for computers.
<Nilby>
Not sure Xanadu style micro-copyright even makes sense. But I recommend going post-economic. The true currency is good will.
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<beach>
So let me get this straight. If a restart is associated with a condition, this association is distinct from the restart object itself, since the association can be established or not in different dynamic contexts, or not be established in some such dynamic contexts. Right? If so, I suppose that means that the dynamic environment must have an object that is different from a restart that represents this association Right again?
<Bike>
yeah. in the kmp condition code, there's just a *condition-restarts* variable that holds an alist.
<beach>
Thanks. I should try to read that code, but it's not very appealing.
<Bike>
there's also phoe's code, but i forget where that is
<beach>
I have it.
<beach>
But I wanted to make sure he is doing the right thing. I suppose if he used KMP as a model, he did.
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<beach>
So I guess COMPUTE-RESTARTS must use those associations as a filter and gather only the active restarts that have an active association.
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<yitzi>
Does anybody remember url for the Common Lisp documentation resolver? I think it was Shinmera's.
<Shinmera>
resolver in what way
<yitzi>
Didn't you have a website that did redirects to clhs, etc?
<Shinmera>
no
<Shinmera>
If you mean l1sp.org, that's Xach's
<yitzi>
Yes. Thanks!
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<beach>
Congratulations!
<jackdaniel>
thanks!
<scymtym>
jackdaniel: if the "bir" part refers to Cleavir 2 BIR, you could possibly used the included visualizer which as CLIM-based
<jackdaniel>
it is not (except for the design inspiration)
<jackdaniel>
I'm working incrementally on eclcompiler
<skin>
what is eclcompiler
<jackdaniel>
ecl space compiler
<jackdaniel>
the thing ecl uses to compile the code
<skin>
oh cool
<skin>
ecl is great for making CLI programs. really small executables. Need to figure out its story around CFFI on Windows though. Once I figure that out I'm golden.
<skin>
Really cool that it supports MSVC compiling on windows, talking about windows
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<jackdaniel>
there is also experimental wasm runtime
<skin>
That is nuts
<skin>
CL in the browser
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<Shinmera>
jscl has existed for a while.
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<nij->
A potential issue of using cl-generic is that generic functions may be slower than ordinary functions because it is "too dynamic">
<nij->
Usually it's not an issue if the function isn't called too many times.
<nij->
But in that case, is there anyway I can optimize the function call?
<nij->
e.g. can I hint the compiler that in some circumstances the input must be of type X?
<Bike>
what is cl-generic
<nij->
A library that redefines ordinary functions as generic functions.
<nij->
For example, #'+ #'*.. etc.
<Bike>
alright
<Bike>
well, as far as i know no implementations do static optimizations of generic function calls, although sicl is slated to. heisig has a few libraries that might be of interest https://github.com/marcoheisig/fast-generic-functions
<ixelp>
GitHub - marcoheisig/fast-generic-functions: Seal your generic functions for an extra boost in performance.
<Bike>
of course, as usual you should experimentally determine that this is actually a problem for you before you bother
<nij->
Thanks! I will take a look.
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