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<piethesailor>
I am getting a b
<piethesailor>
I am getting an error '; Evaluation aborted on #<USOCKET:CONNECTION-REFUSED-ERROR'
<piethesailor>
I am using wsl2 ubuntu
<piethesailor>
chrome is installed
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<knusbaum>
Is there a quick way in sldb to jump to the function on the top of the call stack?
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<knusbaum>
man... this doc generator looked good but it's having errors all over because it's using all sorts of unexported sbcl symbols.
<knusbaum>
M-. btw. I should have known.
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<cpli>
beach, edgar-rft i read through the cltl2 documentation surrounding use of series.
<cpli>
i'm impressed at how intuitive they are once you understand them
<cpli>
now, why does series shadow DEFUN
<cpli>
and how is the dataflow graph compiled?
<cpli>
how does it differ from say, Rust's iterators?
<cpli>
not in practice, but theory
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<mfiano>
lambda is the ultimate eager slayer. You want to defer evaluation? lambda is your entry point. Remember, Common Lisp's runtime has full access to Common Lisp's compiler; code can even be compiled dynamically at runtime dependent on previous runtime computations evaluations.
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<mfiano>
One can compile or pass around LAMBDA expressions at runtime, or pass un-evaluated data around with QUOTE. The rest is just obvious. Iterators in other languages are just syntax sugar for the same thing, often much more complicated in implementation and interface, with specialized syntax or constructs.
<mfiano>
Yes, I know about Baker's writings on this.
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<hayley>
Series is functional, whereas Rust iterators modify internal state.
<mfiano>
Some iterators must be mutable, unfortunately.
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<mfiano>
But you are right.
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<hayley>
Must they?
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<mfiano>
I retract that.
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<mfiano>
The state can be built up functionally and passed around explicitly or implicitly as an argument
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<cpli>
mfiano so promises instead of building a stack of iterator transformers?
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<mfiano>
promises are used in asynchronous programming. I don't follow.
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<mfiano>
I also don't know what a stack of iterator transformers is
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<mfiano>
The easiest way to implement an iterator interface in language Blub, is to create two generic functions. One specialized to the object type to be extended, and which returns the next item and the initial state needed. The second one should take the object and a state object.
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<cpli>
mfiano scheme's "streams" are basically lazy CDRs
<cpli>
i.e. the car is the next element in the stream and the CDR is a "Promise" which is simply(-ified/bastardized) a lambda
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<cpli>
iterators are in a sense ugly, but the prose hayley linked and the implementation you mention, mfiano "Blub" are all overcomplicating "next"
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<mfiano>
I don't know much about Scheme, or other languages in general to be able to go any further. I am right at home with CL which is flexible without so many moving parts or awkward interfaces leaking implementation details.
<cpli>
all you need is some notion of arriving at the next value. i.e. CDR std::iter::Iterator::next(&mut self) (THAW (CDR X)) etc
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<cpli>
mfiano the fact that series requires all functions that interact with series to be defined by a macro it shadows sadly does leak implementation details, now get off your high horse and see a larger picture than the one you made of your back yard last year.
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<mfiano>
Excuse me? I don't use SERIES, nor do I look down on anyone.
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<cpli>
I have to apologize for impeding on your ivory tower, but I would assume we'd both benefit from assessing the benefit of some iteration abstraction with rigor. Some notion of abstracting arriving at the next value in some possibly asynchronous stream.
<mfiano>
It seems you came here to troll about Scheme and Rust. I am off.
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<cpli>
...
<cpli>
not so eager anymore.
<cpli>
i digress.
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<cpli>
hayley, do side-effects (such as those on a file) count as mutation?
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<hayley>
Sure, but that's rather inherent, and anything else can be functional.
<cpli>
how would you feel for read to be written with the help of series?
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<hayley>
I don't know, I never used Series.
<cpli>
as in, read would.. read from a series of code points from some SCAN-FILE scanner
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<cpli>
oh, alright.
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<cpli>
this discussion originally arose from a comment a friend of mine made about READ. since it steps through the contents of its streams character by character (as one would assume from most parsers), it could benefit from the types of optimizations Series provides
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<cpli>
common lisp's streams only comprise characters and integers, a curious choice i have yet to understand.
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<qhong>
Ah streams... hopelessness
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<qhong>
cl-stream may make it nicer; nevertheless I'm currently experimenting convert my most of my streams-related code to use lazy sequence instead
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<qhong>
BTW is there something like an invert of flexi-streams? i.e. I have a character stream and I want to have a binary stream on top of it
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<jackdaniel>
what does it mean that streams comprise of characters and integers?
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<qhong>
The standard only defines read/write-char or read/write-byte
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<jackdaniel>
but what prevents you from defineing stream-write-foo and stream-read-foo for a gray stream?
<jackdaniel>
defining*
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<qhong>
That's what cl-stream do
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<qhong>
Maybe the problem is just not enough people are using generic stream-read/write yet
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<jackdaniel>
so there is no problem with common lisp streams or I'm missing the big picture?
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<cpli>
qhong: cl-stream seems to be the end of my hopelessness with streams in common lisp, the fact that these "iterators" require me to define "opening" or "closing" the stream seems unnatural, but they are what they should be
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<cpli>
jackdaniel: the preceeding discussion heavily included mentions of the series package. series attempts to amortize performance of transducers and collectors on any stream as much as possible
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<pve>
the one about creating projects with templates
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<phoe>
pve: thanks
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<piethesailor>
Hopping back in. Anyone have a good resource on using cl-selenium? Running into issues, and I am not sure right now if it is related to the fact I am on wsl2 ubuntu or I am misunderstanding how cl-selenium works
<piethesailor>
Or maybe I should jst read up on regular old selenium to get up to speed
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<phoe>
what sort of issues?
<piethesailor>
I so far have 'sudo apt install google-chrome-stable' and (ql:quickload :cl-selenium). From here I assumed I could just (cl:selenium:start-interactive-session).
<piethesailor>
but I am getting: ; Debugger entered on #<USOCKET:CONNECTION-REFUSED-ERROR {10033C3F93}>
<piethesailor>
Perhaps I am lacking in dependencies/config
<piethesailor>
I'll continue to read up on selenium.
<phoe>
do you have "a running instance of selenium-server-standalone"?
<ixelp>
CL-USER> (cl-selenium:start-interactive-session); Debugger entered on [PROTOCO - Pastebin.com
<piethesailor>
New problem. I got the server to run in eshell, but: (cl:selenium:start-interactive-session) is giving me this error. Is this a version mismatch or something? I just 'sudo apt install default-jdk
<phoe>
that looks like something selenium-specific; did the server connect to your browser?
<phoe>
in particular, this seems like a problem with the server being unable to connect to the browser; do you have Chrome running with a proper version of the selenium driver plugin?
<piethesailor>
my eshell process is running with the final line 10:24:07.823 INFO - Selenium Server is up and running on port XXXX
<piethesailor>
Let me check
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<piethesailor>
this is a newb question.. I downloaded the chromedriver.zip, do I need to unzip and then place the resultant 'chromedriver' in, say, /usr/bin?
<ixelp>
ChromeDriver - WebDriver for Chrome - Getting started
<phoe>
the driver part is CL-independent; you basically need to implant Chrome with code that will listen to commands from the Selenium server
<skin>
I have a question about the gethash function. Does gethash return a copy of the element of the hash table, or a reference to it.
<phoe>
talking in C++isms, almost everything in CL returns references; copying must be stated explicitly in the description of an operator
<phoe>
talking in almost-C++isms, CL is pass-by-value but the values passed around are (copiable) references
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<piethesailor>
Okay! I am in a chrome browser controlled by the repl. thanks phoe, youve been a great help
<phoe>
no problem
<phantomics>
Hi beach if you're around, I've been digging into Cluster and have some questions
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<skin>
phoe: So i can gethash a nested hashtable, add elements to the nested hashtable using the returned "value/reference"
<skin>
sounds like it. Thanks
<Bike>
you can do that, yes.
<Bike>
CL does not "copy" objects in the way C or C++ do. there is a kind of "copying" but it is only relevant to cl:eq on numbers and characters, and nowhere else. pretty marginal compared to how it looms in C/C++
<beach>
phantomics: Sure, go ahead.
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<beach>
skin: What Bike is describing is what I call "uniform reference semantics", which means that Common Lisp behaves as if (almost) every object is manipulated through a reference (or a pointer) to a chunk of memory.
<phantomics>
Thanks beach, I was wondering how the interface between code-commands and instruction-descriptors works
<phantomics>
I want to output instructions that will have a uniform width of 8 bytes, and the format is different from x86, often with a number of 0-bytes before the opcodes
<beach>
The instruction descriptors that match the mnemonic are candidates, and then, depending on the operands of the code command, only the possible instruction descriptors are kept.
<phantomics>
Ok, so it checks the types of the operands, where is the code for this type-checking?
<beach>
Good question. I need to refresh my memory...
<beach>
I think best-candiate-descriptor in code.lisp
<beach>
If first calls CANDIDATES with the mnemonic and the operands.
<phantomics>
Ok cool, also the instruction-descriptor class is pretty tightly coupled to x86, and for more x86 coverage it will need to be expanded to support more operation prefixes than rex.w
<beach>
CANDIDATES calls OPERANDS-MATCH-P.
<beach>
Sure. And you would probably do an entirely different instruction descriptor class for RISC machines.
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<phantomics>
Yeah, it'll need new encode-instruction methods as well
<beach>
Absolutely.
<phantomics>
I've created a new instruction database system paralleling the x86 instruction database, I'll approach the design by putting overrides for the x86 default classes and methods in that system, then later I can look at how to normalize Cluster further with arch-specific stuff factored into different systems, does that make sense?
<beach>
Sounds great.
<phantomics>
All right, I'll work on overriding defaults until I get something workable, I'll let you know any more questions, appreciate it
<beach>
Sure. Good luck!
<skin>
beach: Interesting, uniform reference semantics, I'll loook it up
<beach>
I invented it. So you will find only my pages.
<skin>
Still, very useful
<beach>
Thanks.
<beach>
It's the only sane semantics. When I used to program in C, I made everything a pointer. Otherwise I couldn't understand the semantics.
<skin>
A cool idea.
<skin>
never heard of it before, but it makes sense
<beach>
I mean, I didn't invent the semantics. Just the name for it.
<beach>
But it is hard to have such semantics in a language without automatic memory management, which is why C and especially C++ is so twisted in that they distinguish between references an non references.
<beach>
In such a language you can't even write f(g(x)). You have to write "mumble temp = g(x); mumble2 = f(temp); free(temp); return mumble2.
<beach>
Er, "mumble temp = g(x); mumble temp2 = f(temp); free(temp); return temp2." I mean.
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<phoe>
actually in C++ you can, due to how its destructors work
<phoe>
but then AFAIK it took the standard a while to avoid copying on leaving the function
<beach>
Not if the object is heap allocated.
<phoe>
even if the object is heap allocatedhm
<phoe>
welp
<beach>
OK.
<phoe>
even if the object is heap allocated
<beach>
How does the system know that there are no more references to it?
<phoe>
to the best of my understanding: it doesn't, that's why in the naïve case it needs to copy on leaving the function and then destroy the intermediate objects
<phoe>
like, with "Foo a = g(x); Foo b = f(temp); return b;" you'd need to copy b out and then call destructors for a and b
<beach>
But I explicitly said that my example was when you use reference semantics. So that excludes copying.
<phoe>
oh, welp - I interpreted "mumble temp = g(x); mumble temp2 = f(temp); free(temp); return temp2." as c++ pseudocode
<beach>
It was. And it was an example of what you need to do if you use references for x, what g(x) returns, and what f(y) returns.
<jackdaniel>
skin: C (and C++) programs often hide the pointer behind a typedef to avoid clutter (and too-many-stars confusion at times)
* beach
goes to fix dinner for his (admittedly small) family.
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<jackdaniel>
i.e in the aosp codebase (c++ part) it is basically a given
<skin>
True.
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<piethesailor>
Anyone have a pragmatic resource for geting data through cl-celenium? I have a table on a webpage I want data from, but I am stuck. Should I use functions from 'cl-selenium-utils' to (id "") (attr "") myself to the data in a 'lquery' kind of way. Perhaps I am still too uneducated on css-selectors to ask the right kinds of questions.