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<theos>
so CL has its own channel on this network!
<beach>
Yes, this one.
<beach>
It is easy to create new channels.
<theos>
but, hard to get users. good to see this one has plenty.
<beach>
Sure, but not in this case. #lisp on freenode was already dedicated to Common Lisp, and the opportunity was taken to clarify this situation by naming the channel #commonlisp.
<theos>
ya i remember that. #lisp seems to have adopted scheme as their favorite lisp.
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<beach>
I see.
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<mfiano>
That's not true. We were advising you about Common Lisp.
<theos>
i am sure you had good intentions. CL can be hard to understand at first.
<mfiano>
I am not sure what you mean, by good intentions, or that we have adopted Scheme. I know very little Scheme, so my suggestions should not have implied it was my favorite. You had asked for beginner books on Common Lisp. You received a few suggestions. None were good enough for you. You asked which resources would be good for a beginner to lisp in general. I suggested you to read and practice
<mfiano>
Common Lisp like everyone else, and if that doesn't satisfy you, then you can check out one of the more beginner-friendly resources for Scheme, a language that can be understood in a few paragraphs.
<mfiano>
theos: The closest to the level of beginner help you seek would probably be to ask questions on #clschool or some other forum where experienced programmers want to help you.
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<theos>
mfiano thanks. your suggestions were good yesterday and today also. there are many good books on CL but i was too stupid to understand them a decade ago. probably still am. I will definitely give them another try and see how it goes. #clschool looks like a nice channel.
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<beach>
Is Common Lisp really that much harder to understand than Scheme? I mean, I know that Common Lisp has many more standardized operators, but the semantics are not that different I would think. No?
<mfiano>
Harder to understand? No. More time and experience, yes.
<mfiano>
It doesn't help that there are many revisions of Scheme and countless implementations.
<beach>
Good point.
<mfiano>
Keep in mind that dynamic binding is not even standard in some revisions, not to mention function cell binding at all.
<mfiano>
There are a lot of simplicities made, but it did acquire a lot of CL's features over the years in later revisions, from consensus with SRFI specifications.
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<mfiano>
For the record, I have nothing against Scheme (or Schemes, if you will). I think it is a fine language, and certainly more useful to me than most. Languages are tools that help me get work done. Maybe one day I can find a use for it.
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<fourier>
chez scheme looks good though, I could imagine using it for app development
<beach>
In my talks to industry, I clearly state that a project leader who chooses a programming system without a standard for a project, should also make a risk analysis that contains the cost of maintaining that programming system in case it is abandoned, and/or the cost of rewriting the application in that case.
<beach>
So choosing "Chez Scheme" over "Scheme" is an example. Of course, for hobby projects , it matters much less.
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<beach>
Of course, I mostly get blank stares, because they don't know what a risk analysis is, nor why one would need one.
<Sauvin>
What about things like Gauche or Guile?
<beach>
What about them?
<phoe>
these are mostly R7RS compliant, aren't they
<phoe>
it's a question of how many non-standard features of these you end up using
<phoe>
and the risk is much smaller if you use functionality from SRFIs, just like with code that uses CL compatibility libraries like usocket or bordeaux-threads
<pkal>
Gauche certainly has implemented a lot of SRFIs
<phoe>
beach describes the cost of so-called "vendor lock-in" which can happen when you limit yourself to just one implementation
<phoe>
or one hardware platform, whatever
<phoe>
...which naturally includes programming languages which only have one implementation and/or which only run on one platform
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<fourier>
beach, well chez scheme is open source so cost no more than with other open source systems. probably open source system + solid consultancy behind it for the paid support is the best for the industry usages
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<pjb>
theos was asking for books for 8-yo…
<pjb>
in #lisp which is NOT specifically about CL…
<beach>
fourier: I guess I didn't express myself very well. If you use only the parts of Chez Scheme that are specified in (one of) the Scheme specification(s), then you are right, because one can switch to another conforming implementation if necessary. But if you start using specific features of Chez Scheme, then that's when the potential problems happen.
<fourier>
isn't it the case with say sbcl as well ?
<fourier>
im not into the scheme ecosystem, maybe they got some compatibility libraries like bt etc
<beach>
Sure. One should avoid SBCL-specific features. But you said "chez scheme looks good though", and I took that to mean that you intended to use something in it that is not in the Scheme specification. If I was wrong, then I apologize.
<fourier>
no, you are right. I was looking at the supplied non standard features, and these look good. in any way one could design an application with layers allowing to swictch relatively quickly between underlying system-specific stuff
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<fourier>
however you are very right if we are talking about _language_ extensions, not the standard _library_ extensions..
<pjb>
pve: EXPORT is a function. At the toplevel, this function call is only evaluated in the :load-toplevel or :execute situation (:execute = load .lisp, :load-toplevel = load .fasl).
<ixelp>
sbcl/target-package.lisp at 964e068b0268599b5d638620895511ca0a2905dc · sbcl/sbcl · GitHub
<pjb>
pve: this is why you want to use defpackage, so that things are all done when they should.
<pve>
phoe: i added the backtrace to the paste
<phoe>
but, by definition, MY-PACKAGE::FOO is accessible in MY-PACKAGE
<pjb>
(defpackage "MY-PACKAGE" (:use "CL") (:export "FOO")) (in-package "MY-PACKAGE") (defun foo () t) ; and that's it.
<phoe>
because it is interned there
<phoe>
so this error message does not make sense
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<phoe>
pjb: EVAL-ALWAYS around the call to EXPORT doesn't fix it though
<phoe>
pve: ask in #sbcl maybe, because that error message alone warrants a minor bug report since it contradicts itself
<phoe>
I suspect some sort of edge case wrt interning that symbol at load-toplevel-time, might also be that the produced FASLs are different for whatever reason
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<phoe>
something seems badly broken in the package system consistency - if I modify CL:EXPORT by adding (dolist (symbol symbols) (print (symbol-package symbol)) (print (multiple-value-list (find-symbol (symbol-name symbol) package)))) there, then I get #<PACKAGE "MY-PACKAGE"> and (NIL NIL)
<phoe>
which means that upon calling EXPORT the symbol->package reference is maintained but package->symbol is not
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<pve>
hmm, that's not ideal
<beach>
Could it be that MAKE-PACKAGE always creates a new package, rather than signaling an error?
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<phoe>
beach: not on SBCL it seems
<phoe>
it does seem like some detail wrt how SBCL creates and/or loads FASLs
<Bike>
sure looks like an error here. it's practically the first thing sbcl's make-package does, too
<phoe>
Bike: yes, that's what I meant, sorry
<Bike>
oh hey, i get no error doing the compile compile load thing on clasp. nice.
<pve>
if I change it to (ignore-errors (make-package :my-package :use '(:cl))), the problem goes away :)
<phoe>
wait, but why
<phoe>
it isn't MAKE-PACKAGE that signals an error, or is it
<pve>
well no, but that causes two calls to make-package
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<Gleefre>
Hm, I don't get any errors at all (sbcl 2+, linux, x86-64), could it be a platform specific / something from userinit file?..
<pve>
Gleefre: i tried with --no-userinit too, no difference.. I have sbcl 2.2.9 if that matters.
<pve>
anyway, with ignore-errors compiling once and twice produces identical fasls, but with (unless (find-package ...) ...) the fasls differ.
<Gleefre>
Yeah, this happens on 2.2.9. Does not on 2.3.4 though.
<phoe>
hmm, I am on 2.2.9
* phoe
upgrades
<pve>
Gleefre: thanks, good to know.. need to upgrade then
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<Gleefre>
It seems that this bug was introduced in sbcl-2.2.6 and fixed in sbcl-2.3.2, though I didn't find anything related in NEWS
<phoe>
Gleefre: do you have the related commits anywhere?
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<phoe>
I couldn't reproduce on 2.2.7 (that I accidentally installed)
<phoe>
I can't reproduce on 2.3.4 either
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<Gleefre>
phoe: Sorry, I don't, I simply compiled a bunch of versions from 2.2.3 (which I also had installed from ubuntu repository) to 2.3.4
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<phoe>
yes, I see
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<ixelp>
Work around remaining RENAME-PACKAGE issue for tll smashing. · sbcl/sbcl@1bdc85a · GitHub
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<phoe>
huh, some compiler wizardry inside MAKE-PACKAGE
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<remexre>
does trivia treat fboundp symbols differently?
<phoe>
in which contexts do you mean?
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<remexre>
in the pattern context; I have a pattern like (some-struct :slot name) where name is fbound (and also not in the same package, if it matters)
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