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<gendl__>
Hi, In a source file, I have `#+sbcl (require :sb-posix)` at the top-level. And I was told by a downstream library maintainer: "You can't use that form at the top-level and it would be better expressed in the system definition file." So I'm trying to figure out how to express that in the system definition file.
<gendl__>
Can I include requirable modules in the :depends-on list of the asdf file?
<pve>
gendl__: asdf will handle them specially, but it does work
<gendl__>
Well. Indeed I would expect asdf to handle them platform-specific. So does asdf search first for matching visible asdf systems, then if not found searches for requirable modules?
<pve>
I'm not sure how it's done, only that there is a special asdf-system class "require-system" for this purpose
<splittist>
wouldn't it be something like (:feature :sbcl :sb-posix) in the :depends-on ?
<pve>
is that different from doing :depends-on (#+sbcl :sb-posix ...)?
<splittist>
Perhaps - wild speculation - the information will be recorded in the asdf system object and can therefore be queried and reasoned about, instead of thrown-away at the reader level
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<edwlan[m]>
It’s not lost after READ
<edwlan[m]>
And it’s computed by Asdf at some point when the system is being loaded
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<splittist>
edwlan[m]: 'it' being the #+xxx form?
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<jackdaniel>
pve: the rationale was that sometimes you may want to analyze the full system definition including feature-conditional inclusions
<jackdaniel>
if you do #+foo (:file "foo") #-foo (:file "bar") then one of these branches is not read, hence it is not part of the system definition itself
<jackdaniel>
(so you can't inspect the "full" system definition)
<jackdaniel>
sufficiently smart asdf would define its own reader and parse #+xxx inside the defsystem ,)
<jackdaniel>
(don't disprove that, it is a joke)
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<pve>
jackdaniel: i see, makes sense
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<parjanya>
morning! how can I make sbcl return #\space as "#\Space" instead of "#\ "?
<hayley>
,(format nil "#\~:C" #\Space)
<ixelp>
(format nil "#\~:C" #\Space) => "#Space"
<hayley>
Oops, forgot a backslash. But something like that.
<hayley>
Or perhaps ,(format nil "~@C" #\Space)? I'm reading 22.3.1.1 of the HyperSpec.
<ixelp>
(format nil "~@C" #\Space) => "#\\ "
<jackdaniel>
is there any resource discussing ordering of the compiler passes?
<splittist>
jackdaniel: which channel did you mean to use? (:
<jackdaniel>
hum! ;p but the question stands :)
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<parjanya>
hayley: formatting is... less complicated, apparently this is decided by 'SB-FORMAT::FORMAT-PRINT-NAMED-CHARACTER, but I couldn’t tweak it...
<yitzi>
mi6x3m: LOOP and DO are made with the same special forms, TAGBODY, etc. One isn't better than the other one in that respect.
<hayley>
TAGBODY? Cute, everything is LAMBDA if you stare hard enough.
<yitzi>
Touche
<jackdaniel>
but LOOP has 2kloc minimum while DO has 64loc maximum
<jackdaniel>
hayley: not according to the common lisp standard <:
<mi6x3m>
I see i see :)
<mi6x3m>
i'll switch to do that
<mi6x3m>
than
<mi6x3m>
much simpler
<mi6x3m>
thank you that helps me a lot as always
<varjag>
jackdaniel: it's LOOP who's the alternative iteration construct! :p
<hayley>
jackdaniel: It's not a story X3J13 would tell you. It's a Scheme legend.
* hayley
is crushed by a giant foot before she can continue.
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<flip214>
pve: quite a lot (but not all) examples are alliterations, is that just by chance?
<yitzi>
*no-defun-allowed*: Don't you mean the Lisp alien's trunk hand?
<pve>
flip214: so *that's* the name for it, thanks!
<jackdaniel>
heresy must be punished
* jackdaniel
wears a religious robe with a lambda on his chest
<yitzi>
It seems so friendly...and yet a great darkness is lurking
<jackdaniel>
and a funny religious cape with an alien
<pve>
flip214: the generate-same-first-letter function will produce the alliterations
<pve>
i should probably rename the function now that I know what an "alliteration" is :)
<pve>
generate-basic will just pick at random
<pve>
flip214: I renamed it now. Man, that was bugging me all day yesterday. Thanks!
<flip214>
you're welcome!
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<flip214>
pve: what happens on (generate-alliteration pattern 'adjective 'adjective '("Alice") '("Bertrand"))?
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<pve>
it will signal an error if the intersection is empty
<splittist>
I have a function that acts on a THING. Often, the callers of this function actually have a PART (of which the THING is a component) or a DOCUMENT (of which the PART is a component). Should I turn the function into a (generic) function accepting a DOCUMENT, PART or THING? Or should I leave it to the callers to extract the THING as necessary? Please dicuss. (:
<splittist>
(I don't really call it THING, by the way.)
<jackdaniel>
I think that argument names should reflect what said arguments represent
<jackdaniel>
so if it is a thing, you should call it a thing! :)
<splittist>
It's actually a 'root' (:
<pve>
flip214: Tbh I didn't give much thought to what it should do in that case, so I figured just signal an error for now.
<flip214>
splittist: I've had that last weekend in one of my projects, and ended up with a few DEFMETHODs - this way there's an interface (sorry)
<flip214>
pve: good enough, just shouldn't end up in a loop forever
<jackdaniel>
splittist: you may also introduce a generic function called thing
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<jackdaniel>
then you could call (do-thing (thing thing))
<jackdaniel>
or (do-thing (thing document))
<splittist>
flip214: yeah. In fact, this is a bit of a common pattern, so I'm also thinking of a macro DEFINE-ROOT-FUNCTION that would define the generic function and the three methods.
<splittist>
(although I might give the name more than 40 seconds thought...)
<splittist>
Now - do these methods just wrap one another, or should they be a series of before methods, or am I missing some (other) obvious method-combination?
* splittist
starts polishing the foot-gun
<jackdaniel>
how would a before method work though?
<splittist>
jackdaniel: fair enough.
<flip214>
splittist: I played around a bit - a DEFUN that SETFs its argument bit by bit via a few (WHEN (TYPEP ...)), DEFMETHODs, and a DEFUN that used LABELS recursively depending on type.
<flip214>
I ended up with DEFMETHODs - not slower and easier to read and extend
<flip214>
methods that call each other, not any fancy stuff
<flip214>
although I might switch them to inline-generic-methods if I need more performance
<splittist>
yeah - I think I was hallucinating an object relationship that didn't exist, channeling my inner ChatGPT
<jackdaniel>
we are bike shedding, right? so I'll add my own 2gr -- if I have a generic function #'SEAT-POSITION, and I have a car that does not have a position, but its seat has one
<jackdaniel>
then I'd consider gross to have a SEAT-POSITION specialization on the car that trampolines to its seat
<jackdaniel>
I'd rather have a reader that extracts the seat from the car
<flip214>
I hope it puts it back in, else it's not a READer ;)
<jackdaniel>
last time I've tried to rewind the stream more than one character after reading I had some problems, so smh
<splittist>
jackdaniel: agreed. But I think I'm ok in at least some of the cases I'm considering. It makes sense to ask ALL-FOOTNOTES about a DOCUMENT, a MAIN-DOCUMENT-PART, and a ROOT, since the only places in a document footnotes can appear is in the main-document-part, which has a root. Many of the callers of all-footnotes will be in a context where they have a root rather than one of the enclosing structures, but not all.
<splittist>
(again, all-footnotes used for illustration)
<jackdaniel>
sure, makes sense. also I've explicitly said that I'm bike-shedding!
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<mi6x3m>
is it customary to suffix flag names with ? as in clojure?
<mi6x3m>
aka is-active vs active?
<beach>
No.
<beach>
You could use p or -p according to the name of the flag.
<mi6x3m>
roger roger
<hayley>
It is very funny to suffix a predicate which also performs mutation with ‽, but I have yet to find a style guide which is good enough to recommend such a suffix.
<jackdaniel>
mi6x3m: most people should be fine with ? and ! (the rule of the thumb is to use the style estabilished in the codebase you modify)
<mi6x3m>
it's my own :D
<mi6x3m>
but yeah so far i saw -p for predicates
<mi6x3m>
but nothing in particular for vars and bindings
<hayley>
(This arises, for example, when checking if a least-recently-used cache contains a value.)
<hayley>
I personally use a ? suffix for such variables, but I doubt it is customary.
<beach>
There are several examples in the standard where p or -p is used, like for instance SUPPLIED-P-PARAMETER in lambda lists.
<beach>
Using ? is like speaking Common Lisp with a Scheme accent.
<flip214>
beach: yeah, but neither pop nor pprint-pop match that convention. neither is "n" (like "nreverse") a good idea.
<NotThatRPG>
Anyone have any advice for someone trying to use CFFI on a Mac? I'm having trouble where CFFI-grovel is ignoring my environment variable bindings of CC and LD_LIBRARY_PATH and insisting on using a C compiler that is not the one I want.
<flip214>
so I'm tending to use bool? and change-object! because they're non-alpha, like with +constant+ and *special*.
<NotThatRPG>
Something keeps rebinding cffi-grovel:*cc* behind my back
<beach>
But the question was not what individuals tend to use, but what the convention is.
<flip214>
well, hayley had an opinion to share, and so did I.
<flip214>
and at least we don't need to discuss _my_ accent, right? ;)
<hayley>
"I'm speaking in an accent beyond her range of hearing!"
<jackdaniel>
using -p is like using "thou" instead of "you" - certainly a dignified thing to do ;) (and yes, I'm exaggerating)
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<mi6x3m>
do CL string functions work on characters or bytes?
<_death>
what do you think
<beach>
mi6x3m: No, there is a separate chapter on characters, and a separate chapter on numbers (of which bytes are a subset).
<mi6x3m>
I am asking prior to informing myself because USUALLY languages speak of strings but mean byte sequences
<mi6x3m>
not sequences of unicode characters
<splittist>
mi6x3m: you are being quite anachronistic
<mi6x3m>
one would hope so but sadly latest C++ is still in that boat to name 1
<mi6x3m>
no unicode awareness whatsoever
<beach>
mi6x3m: In Common Lisp, a string is a vector with element type character (or some subset thereof). A character is an entirely different object. And a byte in Common Lisp is just an integer that can be of any precision. And integers are not characters either.
<mi6x3m>
I am very happy then!
<beach>
But whether Unicode is supported is specific to each implementation.
<splittist>
A lisp character is a lisp character. What the Unicode Standard means by 'character' is, as I understand it, studiedly vague/ambiguous: "Character. (1) The smallest component of written language that has semantic value; refers to the abstract meaning and/or shape, rather than a specific shape (see also glyph), though in code tables some form of visual representation is essential for the reader’s understanding. (2) Synonym for
<splittist>
abstract character. (3) The basic unit of encoding for the Unicode character encoding. (4) The English name for the ideographic written elements of Chinese origin."
<Nilby>
Unfortunately what people think of as a character isn't really the unicode code point which is likely your CL character, but rather graphemes as delivered by say sb-unicode:graphemes.
<splittist>
Many of the popular lisp compilers provide a way to associate characters with Unicode code points, and therefore ways for library authors to associate the information provided by Unicode data tables, and perform Unicode algorithms, on characters. But as Nilby says, anything one instinctively thinks about characters is probably wrong for some set of situations.
<yitzi>
I doubt that Unicode conforms to whatever their own definition of a "character."
<jackdaniel>
if I had an euro for each time I had a bad thought about unicode, then I could buy a coffee
<Nilby>
even disregarding input and output, code point comparison is troublesome without normalization
<yitzi>
jackdaniel: You don't need money to buy coffee. Unicode has that at U+2615
<jackdaniel>
I would not be surprised if someone had proven that one of uax implies turing-completness of the unicode
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<Nilby>
but you'll need 3 bytes for this coffee ☕
<gilberth>
Bytes? I prefer my coffee in liquid form.
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<NotThatRPG>
On SBCL, when we use CFFI to link new C code, do we need to use the same C compiler that was used to build SBCL? Asking because SBCL is built with default (Apple) cc on my laptop, but I *think* I need to use the brew gcc to link in libuv (which comes from brew). Do I need to rebuild SBCL with brew's gcc for that?
<splittist>
Does CFFI compile C code?
<yitzi>
It can via grovel.
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<yitzi>
NotThatRPG: cffi is generally not linking to sbcl. It is loading shared libraries and calling functions in them. Along with marshalling, etc
<Bike>
NotThatRPG: as long as they use the same ABI i think it's fine
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<NotThatRPG>
My problem is that CFFI-grovel isn't finding the right includes or libraries and there doesn't seem to be anything I can do to fix that.
<NotThatRPG>
It's configuring itself and there are not obvious hooks to override that configuration.
<NotThatRPG>
I was hoping that using a different value for `cffi-toolchain:*cc*` would help (because the other gcc knows the right include and lib directories) but I seem unable to change the value of `*cc*` in a way that sticks, or set flag variables.
<NotThatRPG>
I don't see anything in the CFFI manual about configuring CFFI-grovel.
<_death>
there is a Grovel Form: cc-flags &rest flags
<NotThatRPG>
_death: OK, but that requires me to break the abstraction of the `cl-async` library, which seems wrong. Shouldn't the configuration of the local C compiler be kept out of the grovel file?
<NotThatRPG>
It seems like a mistake that the person who writes the grovel file has to know everything about where header and library files are stored on all possible platforms.
<ixelp>
GitHub - gos-k/cl-clblas: Common Lisp binding for clBLAS
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<Shinmera>
magicl
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<nij->
Thanks, green_ Shinmera.
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<nij->
Wow, magicl is awesome. It's also well-documented!
<jackdaniel>
nij-: petalisp
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<nij->
jackdaniel What's the backend of petalisp? Is it powered by lower-level libs like blas or lapack, or anything similar?
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<splittist>
nij-: lisp (and vops, I guess)
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<NotThatRPG>
petalisp looks really cool, but the license is problematic. It would be nice if we could build images using it that are not also licensed under AGPL, but that seems impossible. I like the idea of making it available in a copy-left way, but the idea that any code calling petalisp must also be copyleft is more restrictive than I can live with :-(
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