<ixelp>
Hunchentoot - The Common Lisp web server formerly known as TBNL
<sweatshirt>
thank you!
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<sweatshirt>
ill give it a go tomorrow; too confuseled lol
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<antonv`>
I still can't get ql:quickload nor asdf:load-system print warnings
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<antonv`>
but I see those warnings in Slime when invoke C-C C-R
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<antonv`>
(defun tmp-func ()
<antonv`>
(some-unknown-function 1))
<antonv`>
<antonv`>
When compiling this, fro example.
<antonv`>
Slime prints a warning and highlight the unknown function invokation
<antonv`>
But nothing in the build output
<antonv`>
I wish to have full warnings and style warnings in by CI buiilds, so that I can spot such errors, or just circular dependencies, when the code invokes a function defined in a file that comes later in the build sequence.
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* |3b|
gets style warnings from asdf:load-system :verbose t
<|3b|>
and from ql:quickload :verbose t
<JonBoone[m]>
[antonv](https://matrix.to/#/@antonv:libera.chat): are you saying you’re CI won’t print the warnings?
<ixelp>
You're invited to talk on Matrix
<JonBoone[m]>
* [antonv](antonv): are you saying your CI won’t print the warnings?
<JonBoone[m]>
Are they not sent to standard-output?
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<Alfr>
antonv`, are you loading the "correct" system, meaning does (asdf:system-sources-file :foo) show the asd file you'd expect?
<Alfr>
*system-source-file
<|3b|>
seems to go to *error-output*
<JonBoone[m]>
s//`*/, s/?/*`?/
<antonv`>
The example I give above actually prints a warning during build actually.
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<antonv`>
But if the some-unknown-function exists, but is defined below the tmp-func, the warning disappears
<antonv`>
<antonv`>
I thought it should still produce a warning
<|3b|>
if they are in same file, that is expected?
<antonv`>
I thought during compilation of the tmp-func the some-unknown-function is absent
<mfiano>
Nope. Without forward references you would be unable to represent a lot of concepts.
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<antonv`>
Yes, but I thought CL has this limitation (like in Pascal or C where forward declarations are needed)
<mfiano>
No, this is up to the implementation.
<antonv`>
Up to the implementation, means not guaranteed to work?
<mfiano>
On what a compilation unit is, actually.
<antonv`>
Also, the example above is artificial. I actually was looking at the case when the caller function is in one file and the called function is in enother, later file
<antonv`>
Does ASDF compile everything inside one big with-compilation-unit?
<mfiano>
That would not work without warnings during compilation on some implementations, but no problem at runtime.
<antonv`>
And does with-compilation-unit prevents warnings on forward references?
* |3b|
can't find it in the spec, but implementations can defer warnings to end of file (for cases like that where they might be later corrected), and if so, that can be extended to end of compilation unit
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<Alfr>
antonv`, are you worried that it may error in some implementation? That's not the case:
<|3b|>
with-compilation just specifies the bounds of "compilation", it looks like 3.2.5 "Some warnings might be deferred until the end of compilation."
<Alfr>
antonv`, second paragraph.
<|3b|>
and with-compilation-unit mentions the specific example of undefined function warnings
<antonv`>
Alfr: good to know it won't fail
<|3b|>
and asdf does seem to use with-compilation-unit
<antonv`>
I also worry it will prevent some optimizations
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<|3b|>
any implementation can call functions that were defined after the caller was compiled though, even if they warned about it at the time
<antonv`>
|3b|: indeed, undefined functions are mentioned
<|3b|>
just can't inline or macroexpand things that haven't been defined
<|3b|>
compiler-macros also must be defined already to take effect, though they can be defined and used before the function with the same name is defined (though compiler can always ignore them completely too)
<Alfr>
antonv`, |3b| if in the same file, implementations actually can, 3.2.2.3: A call within a file to a named function that is defined in the same file refers to that function, unless that function has been declared notinline. The consequences are unspecified if functions are redefined individually at run time or multiply defined in the same file.
<edwlan[m]>
At least for macroexpansion, you should eval-when any functions they call while expanding so they’re visible at the right time
<edwlan[m]>
Or define macros and the functions they call in separate files
<|3b|>
Alfr: true, i meant you shouldn't expect (declaim inline) to work for things appearing before it, but implementations can do some inlining on their own in some cases
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<Alfr>
|3b|, understood.
<antonv`>
Alfr: are you sure that quote means possibility of inlining?
<|3b|>
it isn't explicit, but does seem to include it
<|3b|>
a more likely thing to do would be using a special calling convention that calls the function directly without looking it up through the symbol
<|3b|>
or it could optimize for information it knows at a particular call site (like skipping argument checks or keyword processing in the called function), though the called function still needs a "normal" entry point for callers outside that file
<antonv`>
Such optimizations is what I am afraid to miss, when my code has functions defined later than their callers
<antonv`>
Not really "afraid", but I would like to have possibility to see them when building
<antonv`>
As for the 3.2.2.3 quote, it seems to speak about freedom for compiler to ignore redefinitions of a function
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<antonv`>
The item right before the Alfr's quote speaks about recursive function
<|3b|>
right, ignoring redefinition is what gives it the freedom to optimize
<antonv`>
if recursive function redefines itself while inside of the recursion, the compiler is free to use the original definition during the wole execution
<|3b|>
normally it must call through the symbol lookup to allow for redefinition, and can't assume anything about the number or types of arguments the caller will accept, or what it will return
<|3b|>
well, people who redefine functions from inside themselves deserve whatever they get anyway :p
<antonv`>
O, good idea about arguments, let me chech arg number mismatch in forward references
* |3b|
isn't sure many implementations take much advantage of that option for file optimization by default though, since it is somewhat annoying for developers if you can only recompile whole files at a time during development
<|3b|>
(or if you need to manually C-c C-c every single form in the file instead of loading the whole thing, or declaring everything notinline)
<edwlan[m]>
Weren’t there some relatively recent changes to sbcl to improve block compilation
<edwlan[m]>
Which I think is relevant
<|3b|>
i think cmucl and maybe sbcl (probably others?) have options to do that sort of optimization if specifically requested
<|3b|>
yeah, that
<antonv`>
Yes, indirection is convenient for programmers.
<antonv`>
Argument number mismatch is captured by (ql:quickload :verbose t) on CCL
<antonv`>
Simlarly even for functions in different files
<antonv`>
Thanks to ASDF for taking care of this.
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<antonv`>
CCL utilizes the permission to ignore new definition of a recursive function while executing
<antonv`>
(defun test-redef (n)
<antonv`>
(unless (zerop n)
<antonv`>
(when (= 3 n)
<antonv`>
(format t "old def: ~A~%" n)
<antonv`>
(defun test-redef (n)
<antonv`>
(unless (zerop n)
<antonv`>
(format t "new def: ~A~%" n)
<antonv`>
(test-redef (1- n)))))
<antonv`>
(test-redef (1- n))))
<antonv`>
<antonv`>
(test-redef 5)
<antonv`>
(test-redef 5)
<antonv`>
<antonv`>
Prints this:
<antonv`>
old def: 5
<antonv`>
old def: 4
<antonv`>
old def: 3
<antonv`>
old def: 2
<antonv`>
old def: 1
<antonv`>
new def: 5
<antonv`>
new def: 4
<antonv`>
new def: 3
<antonv`>
new def: 2
<antonv`>
new def: 1
<antonv`>
<antonv`>
edwlan[m]: yes, it does seem related
<antonv`>
Not sure it's exacly about function redefinitions, but similar topic 100%
<antonv`>
Unlike CMUCL, SBCL is able to open-code forward-referenced type tests while block compiling. This helps for mutually referential defstructs in particular.
<antonv`>
Block compilation allows calls to global functions defined by defun to be compiled as local calls. The function call can be in a different top-level form than the defun, or even in a different file.
<antonv`>
<antonv`>
In addition, block compilation allows the declaration of the entry points to the block compiled portion. An entry point is any function that may be called from outside of the block compilation. If a function is not an entry point, then it can be compiled more efficiently, since all calls are known at compile time. In particular, if a function is only called in one place, then it will be let converted. This effectively inline expands the
<antonv`>
function, but without the code duplication that results from defining the function normally and then declaring it inline.
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<contrapunctus>
edwlan[m]: after _years_ of reading the name "fiddlerwoaroof", I just realized that it means 'fiddler WITHOUT ("w/o") A roof' 🤦♀️️
<edwlan[m]>
Yeah, it was a joke I came up with when I was about 18 that’s stuck around
<edwlan[m]>
I played fiddle and didn’t really have a permanent residence at the time
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<mfiano>
Does anyone know how Quicklisp registers itself with ASDF? I assume ASDF has some hook that it fires when a system could not be found
<mfiano>
I invoke a simple `#!/usr/bin/env sbcl --script` script (which implies no sysinit or userinit), upon upgrading asdf, reinstalling a fresh source registry without inheritance, rebinding its cache directory, and upon a missing system condition when calling asdf:load-systemit fetches from quicklisp servers still. This is because my attempt at constructing a pristine environment requires me to
<mfiano>
unset SBCL_HOME so that my custom core image with Quicklisp is not used. But if it is, is there a way to un-register Quicklisp from ASDF's missing system hook, wherever that might be?
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<edwlan[m]>
If you don’t load setup.lisp, it shouldn’t be registered however it works
<mfiano>
setup.lisp was loaded into the custom core image, before any sysinit or userinit is loaded by SBCL.
<mfiano>
It's baked in the core.
<mfiano>
I am not using it for this application though, and want to use ASDF vanilla, without handling the missing system error automatically somehow
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<edwlan[m]>
Misread a recent message
<edwlan[m]>
I don't think there's any hook
<edwlan[m]>
(asdf:load-system :not-downloaded-system) signals an error
<edwlan[m]>
(ql:quickload :not-downloaded-system) works
<mfiano>
Well without using Quicklisp at all, just having it loaded into the image before I upgrade ASDF to the bundled copy in the project next to my script, causes #'asdf:load-system to fetch anything missing in my custom registry from Quicklisp's servers.
<edwlan[m]>
I can't reproduce that
<mfiano>
I can, so long as I don't pass SBCL_HOME='' ./script.lisp
<mfiano>
that fixes it, by using the default core
<mfiano>
(without quicklisp)
<mfiano>
Nowhere in my code am I invoking any quicklisp functionality. Infact, I do #+quicklisp (delete-package :ql) before anything, and it STILL tries to get things from its servers.
<edwlan[m]>
One second, that doesn't show what I think it does
<mfiano>
Cannot reproduce with ./script.lisp using #!/usr/bin/env -S sbcl --script
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<edwlan[m]>
If I reinstall quicklisp so I don't have any systems downloaded, this doesn't work: sbcl --core with-quicklisp --no-userinit --disable-debugger --eval '(asdf:load-system :data-lens)'
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<mfiano>
Define doesn't work. I fear we are talking past each other, becuase that is not how I invoke it.
<edwlan[m]>
All I'm showing is that quicklisp doesn't have a hook
<mfiano>
I wouldn't expect it to. I'm not using it. ASDF must though, or Quicklisp is globally a condition type of ASDF's somehow.
<edwlan[m]>
What is your value of sb-ext:init-hooks
<mfiano>
I invoke ASDF only and I get quicklisp client behavior for missing systems.
<edwlan[m]>
If there was an ASDF hook that command I showed would work
<mfiano>
Let's find out. I only set exit-hooks
<edwlan[m]>
All I did was create an sbcl core with quicklisp and then use sbcl with that core and a system I didn't have downloaded
<mfiano>
This might only be triggered through direct or indirect dependency resolution
<mfiano>
That is the only thing I can think of looking at your example
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<mfiano>
I guess also --script as a toplevel option like I'm using adds --noinform and --no-sysinit to your flags.
<edwlan[m]>
But, if quicklisp had this sort of integration with ASDF, it wouldn't matter
<mfiano>
Yeah I've been at this all day. I think I need a break.
<mfiano>
Thanks, night!
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<mfiano>
aha
<mfiano>
even after upgrading asdf, clearing the registry and installing my own asdf:*central-registry* is pointing to a list with only quicklisp's path.
<mfiano>
how odd
<mfiano>
Anyway, I need sleep :)
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* splittist
is looking forward to the Quantum AI ELS banquet
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<mister_m>
Is there anything like python’s itertools package available in the CL landscape? I’m finding I reimplement some of this stuff often. Same question for something like lazy sequences - I can implement a generator through a closure but are there good established library options for lazy sequences?
<ixelp>
GitHub - CodyReichert/awesome-cl: A curated list of awesome Common Lisp frameworks, libraries and other shiny stuff.
<mister_m>
I’ll take a look, thanks
<contrapunctus>
(NB I haven't used these, and I don't have any Python experience.)
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<mister_m>
Series seems pretty good
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<beach>
I find this way of asking questions relative to some feature in some other language very strange. It excludes some people who might now the answer if they knew what features were desired.
<mfiano>
How does one instruct ASDF to invalid its session cache where it stores previous session's paths to systems?
<mfiano>
invalidate*
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<mister_m>
beach`: it’s not that serious
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<Alfr>
mfiano, clear-configuration; see 4.4 Resetting the ASDF configuration.
<mfiano>
THat does not solve my issue
<mfiano>
Hmm
<mfiano>
My issue is that after quicklisp is loaded, I cannot find a way to exclude it from the search path for FIND-SYSTEM, despite initializing a brand new registry with :IGNORE-INHERITED-CONFIGURATION and ASDF/SOURCE-REGISTRY::*SOURCE-REGISTRY* has no trace of my quicklisp directory or any of its parents (in the case of a :TREE directive)
<mfiano>
Yet (asdf:system-source-directory :cffi) for example, gives a path to ~/quicklisp/...
<mfiano>
My research tells me asdf's cache is different from it's source registry
<Alfr>
mfiano, ql puts itself into asdf:*central-registry*.
<mfiano>
Yes but I dynamically bind that to NIL
<mfiano>
So that is not the reason
<mfiano>
It is old and deprecated, and ASDF first searches the source registry instead of the old central registry
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<Alfr>
mfiano, it does not: The asdf:*central-registry* is empty by default in ASDF 2 or ASDF 3, but is still supported for compatibility with ASDF 1. When used, it takes precedence over the above source-registry.
<mfiano>
That is correct. My quicklisp installation resides at ~/.quicklisp/ and the value of *SOURCE-REGISTRY-PARAMETER* is (:SOURCE-REGISTRY (:DIRECTORY #P"/home/mfiano/new-project/") (:TREE #P"/home/mfiano/new-project/vendor/") :IGNORE-INHERITED-CONFIGURATION)
<mfiano>
The reason I know it is picking up quickly, is because I also dynamically bind asdf:*user-cache* to a fresh directory, and I notice fasl's for my quicklisp path
<mfiano>
quicklisp*
<edwlan[m]>
There’s a special variable for search functions
<mfiano>
However, if I make sure that my vendor/ directory has all systems, it finds them there first
<Alfr>
mfiano, hm ... no idea how yours does that, the asdf here will simply error if it doesn't know of a system, definitely not trying to obtain it using ql.
<mfiano>
But in the absense of one, it is still looking in ql
<edwlan[m]>
something like asdf:system-search-functions
<mfiano>
Oh dear
<mfiano>
Thank you edwlan[m]. That must be the one special I couldn't find
<mfiano>
beautiful. Thank you so much! (2 days later :))
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<Shinmera>
I have arrived in Amsterdam.
<McParen>
what is the occasion?
<jackdaniel>
european lisp symposium
<jackdaniel>
amsterdam is lovely, but this "going cashless" thing is absurd
<McParen>
they really really want to know what you spend your money on.
<jackdaniel>
I don't think that the guy at a coffee shop is that desperate to know that (or that he can)
<jackdaniel>
I think that's a successful lobbying from banks who have wet dreams about a negative bank rate on saving
<jackdaniel>
but that's offtopic
<jackdaniel>
(sorry)
<jackdaniel>
s/saving/savings/
<McParen>
on topic: the els programme sounds nice, have fun, shinmera.
<Shinmera>
Ain't no fun when you have to help out organising it :I
<McParen>
how many people will attend?
<Shinmera>
I don't have that data. Probably around a hundred.
<contrapunctus>
"Less than half of what I'd hoped for." /j
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<prxq>
jackdaniel: not having to deal with cath thimplifies thingth thignificantly for buthnesses too (with a lisp to be on topic...)
<jcowan>
Not to mention for non-EU visitors who have credit cards and don't want to mess with local currency. Last time I was outside the U.S. it was all about Amex travelers' cheques
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<splittist>
I managed to find a shop in Amsterdam that didn’t take MC or Visa at all. I was shocked, having become used to “no cash” signs at other branches of the same shop. But - obLisp - it didn’t prevent me making a little progress on pdfreader (:
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