<kof673>
quote: These are the two serpents, given and sent by Juno, (that is the nature metallic), they which the strong Hercules, that is to say, the sage and wise man, must strangle in his cradle, that is, overcome and kill them, to make them putrify, corrupt, and ingender at the beginning of his work. > He, saith Haly, that shall kill the one, shall also kill the other, because the one cannot die, but with his brother.
<kof673>
egregore is a good word :D
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<zid`>
I meant to say rabbitlandperson not neat, was teepo
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<the_oz>
is you a teepo peepo?
<the_oz>
you hush up back there with your mvc nonsense!
<the_oz>
geumble grumble
<kof673>
well what is a character for a character device? 24 bits like my c89 dsp "chars" :D
<kof673>
yes, standardize on this
<kof673>
at that level then, choice of language dictates....
<kof673>
or choice of hardware...
<the_oz>
why settle on streams of 8bits when creating a binary stream driver genericizer
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<the_oz>
the 8 is just extraneous just because your brain is dumb and hasn't had to reconcile a non-8 definition in protocol yet
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<nikolar>
i think everyone has settled on 8 bits decades ago
<nikolar>
it's got nothing to do with anyone's brain being too dumb
<zid`>
it'd be a fun thing to do, make your ram 9 bit
<the_oz>
depends on what "block like" means
<zid`>
because now 100% of all files and programs and stuff are just wasting a bit doing nothing
<zid`>
7 bit would be extra fun
<zid`>
have to encode every char as a u16
<the_oz>
because in my mind that places it outsdide characters definitions
<zid`>
but it'd be HUGE SAVINGS for ascii
<zid`>
utf-8 can fuck off
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<the_oz>
not that "it's a variant of a character" but literally talking to digital devices in weirdo protocols
<the_oz>
>my ECC!!!
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<the_oz>
zid, there are quite a few ways you can shave savings. Not just by shrinking to 3 character max, removing junk, etc
<the_oz>
buuuut you would need to violate backward compatibility
<kof673>
pdp10 or something is 36-bit, so c uses 9-bit chars IIRC....but need to boot up tops-20 or something to assemble and link there i believe... the gcc can cross, just outputs assembly IIRC :D
<kof673>
it is not exactly high priority for me .........
<zid`>
The only thing I know about streams is the cantril convo mentions it, as bad
<heat>
so terribad everything based on STREAMS eventually moved out
<heat>
first solaris internals: OUR STREAMS BASED NETWORKING IS SO FLEXIBLE AND ELEGANT AND GREAT AHHHHHHHHHHHH
<zid`>
flexible and elegant means slow
<heat>
second solaris internals: OUR STREAMS BASED NETWORKING ACTUALLY SUCKED SUPER ASS HERE'S A NEW THING
<zid`>
horrendous layer breaking hacks = fast
<netbsduser`>
it's not at all clear that inadequate operationalisations of the streams concept condemn the concept itself
<heat>
iirc STREAMS always requires you to copy between layers
<heat>
which is hilariously terrible, but very functional programming very haskellpilled
<pog>
i'm flexible and elegant (and slow)
<netbsduser`>
even in actually existing STREAMS zero-copy is already there
<zid`>
pog: Touch your elbows together in front of your chest and say that
<pog>
i can do that actually
<zid`>
I know a few girls who can't
<zid`>
they have back problems
<pog>
i'm not endowed
<pog>
i'm like a community college
<zid`>
I am well undowed
<netbsduser`>
the reason solaris moved away from separate STREAMS modules for each layer of the net stack was because, as i've read, of their operationalisation of the basic streams concept being incompatible with modcons like processing up through the networking stack affine to a single cpu
<zid`>
where did you learn this word operationalisation
<netbsduser`>
since i don't need to inherit a particular streams implementation (nor even be api-compatible) i can possibly do better
<zid`>
how much deviation are you allowed before it isn't STREAMS
<netbsduser`>
zid`: at the university of aberdeen in a class on research methodology, i think
<zid`>
It means 'to define a concept in such a way that it can be measured', not sure how it applies..
<netbsduser`>
i'm not using the word in that sense, where it means something like a particular way in which an experiment finds some proxy by which an unmeasurable construct can be measured
<netbsduser`>
but i think you can see how i use the word in an analogous sense here
<zid`>
I'd have made up a word that was easier to type :p
<netbsduser`>
linux and v7 unix are both unix-like but differ greatly
<zid`>
but yea, to get back to it
<zid`>
I don't think you can have any deviation and claim it is STREAMS
<zid`>
is trumpet winsock trumpet winsock if I reimplement it.. but differently?
<zid`>
or is it just netbsduser winsock
<nikolar>
just call it STREAMS inspired and be done with it
<zid`>
aka "Streams, but fast" "So not streams then"
<zid`>
defining feature is that it's shit :p
<Ermine>
i wonder if twitch uses it
<heat>
v7 and linux don't differ greatly
<netbsduser`>
i don't entirely accept that
<kof673>
"manifestations" "implementations" of streams. manifestations is better :D
<kof673>
incarnations of streams...
<netbsduser`>
i think linux and svr4 or 4.4bsd are basically very similar and the biggest difference is really in linux being smp capable while those weren't
<heat>
svr4 actually had smp capabilities!!
<netbsduser`>
i thought it didn't or they were appalling
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<zid`>
I also have smp capability, unfortunately the capability is "crash"
<heat>
AFAIK svr4 was retrofitted with SMP later on
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<netbsduser`>
if svr4 had it then it was so appalling that sun threw it all out and wrote a paper on how they're doing everything differently for solaris
<heat>
ssh menu@tty.sdf.org
<heat>
login to the v7 system
<heat>
it's linux buddy
<nikolar>
help, i want to scream STREAMS but STREAMS is already capitalized
<zid`>
same
<heat>
*STREAMS*
<zid`>
STREAMS
<heat>
netbsduser`, now, you're going to say "well ofc v7 looks like linux, it's unix-like after all"
<heat>
and i'd say "even the internals and internal interfaces aren't that different"
<heat>
like... fucking buffer_heads!!
<nikolar>
v7 isn't linux, linux is v7
<kof673>
😱 STREAMS * this is not a comment on streams, just answering how to scream
<zid`>
buffer_heads is my album name
<netbsduser`>
but what about the bio and the mqBlk?
<bslsk05>
lore.kernel.org: [braindump][RFC] signals and syscall restarts (Re: [PATCH v2 19/44] metag: Signal handling) - Al Viro
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<heat>
there are some really great details wrt system call restarting there
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<zid`>
how *does* execution get back to the kernel, at the end of a signal?
<zid`>
if it was one of these
<zid`>
oh sigreturn?
<zid`>
til sigreturn and why it exists, I guess
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<clever>
zid`: how exactly does that actually work? i assumed that its either a 2nd stack, or fudging the return addr so it "returns" into a sigreturn() call?
<heat>
yep sigreturn
<clever>
and then it can un-fudge the stack and restore things
<heat>
clever, see sa_restorer
<zid`>
sigframe, is the specific answer, apparently
<clever>
that looks to be a function pointer in the kernel?
<heat>
some new architectures (i.e riscv) don't use sa_restorer and just push a vdso address (that does sigreturn) i believe, but the traditional method is that you just push sa_restorer onto the stack
<heat>
(and the libc prefills every sigaction's sa_restorer with a function that calls sigreturn)
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<clever>
ahhh
<heat>
i believe the ye olde way to do is was to do it all on the stack and set your return address there
<heat>
but the security people hate fun
<heat>
s/is/this/
<bslsk05>
<heat*> i believe the ye olde way to do this was to do it all on the stack and set your return address there
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<bslsk05>
chipsandcheese.com: Intel’s Battlemage Architecture - by Chester Lam
<heat>
intel fasting is working!!
<kof673>
maybe they switched sides, but that works :D > a battlemage is a wizard who specializes almost exclusively in offensive spells
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<Ermine>
if so, maybe in two generations intel dgpus will become great
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<nikolar>
Ermine: I think they'll basically catch up to amd and nvidia
<nikolar>
Maybe with slightly lower prices
<nikolar>
And that's it
<zid`>
in the short term I agree, in the long term it's going to depend on intel's comittment
<zid`>
like if they get a bad year or two maybe they pull out
<zid`>
but if they don't, maybe they start getting super high sales in mid-end prebuilts such that they remove GMA and make Dell buy gpus, then start eating into nvidia etc
<Ermine>
if they catch up i could buy intel and stop caring and whining about amdgpu
<nikolar>
I don't think Intel's drivers are much better
<heat>
hey if this things works reliably enough i'd buy it NOW
<heat>
intel's drivers are absolutely goated
<zid`>
It works fine, the driver's just a bit slow, from what I've seen