klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<heat> i forgor to remove that debug message
<heat> but yay gdb
<heat> (for corefiles)
<heat> i will probably tragically pass away if i ever get to doing ptrace()
<zid> I'd ask for half your stuff but it's probably all portugoose stuff
<heat> half of what stuff
<zid> when you die
<heat> yeah you're getting all my pt_PT keyboards bud
<zid> but sadly it'd be three sea clams, a footballer dakimakura and a goose
<nikolar> onyx the rolling distro
<zid> nikolar is awake
<zid> and hasn't ONCE asked me to cyber today
<nikolar> i've been busy ok
<zid> 'busy'
<heat> nikolar: versions are for losers
<nikolar> indeed
<zid> to both
<heat> stable versioning soyjack vs rolling release chad
<zid> but if you don't use version
<zid> you can't have onyx 1.0 "pengis" and onyx 3.11 "linux"
<nikolar> oh don't worry, he always has onyx "linux"
<nikolar> just drop the version
<zid> every version is linux, fair
<nikolar> exactly
<heat> onyx 2.6 would be linux of course
<nikolar> as if it isn't already
<Ermine> linux but c++
<d1rg3_> (eww)
<Ermine> ewwn't
<nikolar> very eww
<heat> i'm writing things in C now
<heat> actual C
<heat> the queen's C
<zid> did you compile it with
<zid> cc1
<d1rg3_> :-)
<heat> yes
<zid> amaze
<nikolar> let me know when you can compile the whole thing with just gcc
<zid> delete g++ and prove it
<Ermine> queen's c = c89?
<heat> you can't compile the whole thing with just gcc
<heat> Ermine: Kernel C
<d1rg3_> (formal verification is a thing, how useful? not sure guys)
<heat> READ_ONCE
<zid> anything pre c23 is queen's C, anything after is king's
<nikolar> lel
<zid> do I read
<zid> That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime v20 o
<zid> or
<Ermine> nikolar: i think you'll be more excited when the whole thing gets buildable with tcc
<zid> usb 2.0
<nikolar> usb 2.0 of course
<zid> slime it is then
<nikolar> you're welcome
<nikolar> Ermine: even better
<nikolar> you could build the whole thing in seconds
<heat> it will never be buildable with tcc
<heat> > you could build the whole thing in seconds
<heat> good news, you already can
<zid> I can't
<zid> it takes forever to install all the weird tools you used
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<heat> it is what it is
<heat> one day i'll figure out how to properly use gnu make at scale
<heat> i think i know how-ish, but it'll take some effort
<zid> %.o : %.c
<zid> there ya go
<zid> make at scale
<heat> hah cute
<heat> geist's thing does recursive includes
<heat> kbuild does recursive make
<zid> configure options control which set of .o make which executables
<zid> done
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<d1rg3_> (y'all can finally laugh at my biggest achievement of last month, i'm finally able to convert numbers between bases using `bc`)
<d1rg3_> :D
<d1rg3_> now i don't have to type what's 123 in hex on google everytime
<d1rg3_> i also understood long division
<kof673> obase=16 ; if you change ibase then that applies to subsequent ibase and obase commands too :D
<heat> eww bc
<d1rg3_> kof673: that was an important quirk, yeah
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<d1rg3_> heat: paper or python? what do you use :-)
<heat> google
<heat> sometimes python
<heat> google seems to not want to convert really large numbers and hex math there is weird
<heat> python otoh has bignum ints so hex(-8) is -0x8
<heat> which is infuriating
<d1rg3_> like 128 bit stuff?
<heat> no, stuff approaching 64-bit will do
<d1rg3_> i see
<d1rg3_> bc is ugly but handy
<the_oz> wolfram alpha for the bigger stuff because google can't be trusted
<the_oz> I'd use python in console but eh
<kof673> older shells didn't have built-in arithmetic..............so bc was there :D
<kof673> i belive whatever bourne "standards" exist does not require it, unsure if posix mandates it for bourne
<d1rg3_> netbsd still uses csh?
<kof673> i just meant csh, no idea about csh
<kof673> freebsd it was default "recently" but i think they changed it. recent == last 20 years
<kof673> or tcsh, whatever variant
<kof673> *i just mean bourne sh, no idea about csh
<d1rg3_> oh yeah, got it
<kof673> ksh, pdksh i believe have arithmetic
<kof673> pdksh i believe is fairly portable even to old stuff, and public domain to boot IIRC, hence "pd"
<heat> dash is also quite portable
<the_oz> freebsd has csh cargo cultism about not changing for root shell
<the_oz> "never ever ever use a statically compiled rescue shell because you could end up shit creek without a paddle!"
<kof673> as i said the other day, whatever tcp stuff, vi, csh...........the venn diagram of people who think bill joy is the devil for all of these, may be small, but the people who think he is the devil for at least one of these...
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<d1rg3_> lol
<heat> the_oz: you mean !statically compiled shell?
<heat> because that makes some sense
<the_oz> nah I'm saying the cargo cultism is nonsensical even when you're like guys relax is a statically compiled rescue shell
<the_oz> they'll still freak out
<heat> ah ok
<heat> ikr what if bill joy needs to use your computer for a little while
<heat> rms-style
<the_oz> I'd like to interject your shell usage a moment
<bslsk05> ​www.c-language.org: C language
<d1rg3_> new website
<d1rg3_> yay
<heat> reading about ptrace i might very well implement it
<heat> fml
<d1rg3_> (that's awesome)
<d1rg3_> i wonder why everyone hates ptrace so much
<d1rg3_> at least it works
<d1rg3_> when i say everyone i mean gdb guys
<heat> because ptrace is objectively a bad interface, a huge mess
<heat> it's an ioctl-like hodgepodge of shit with weird edge cases
<heat> note: when you mention ptrace you must mention which of the ptraces you're on about
<heat> because every UNIX has its own and they're all somewhat distinct, the whole interface is non-standardized
<heat> iirc even the BSDs had significant differences
<d1rg3_> linux ptrace, cuz i only know one (noob confession)
<d1rg3_> sorry if i'm being annoying, g'night heat :-)
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<klys> librem 5 going for $650 - 800, https://shop.puri.sm/shop/ seems it's come down a bit anyways
<bslsk05> ​shop.puri.sm: Shop – Purism
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<Ermine> android 15 will be able to run linux VMs
<Ermine> epic win
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<nikolar> what does that mean exactly
<zid> beans
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<nikolar> BEANS
<heat> nikolar: what do you mean what does that mean exactly
<heat> running linux VMs
<heat> a VM is a virtual machine
<heat> and you will be able to run linux virtual machines
<heat> under android 15
<nikolar> and do what with them exactly
<the_oz_> attempt to immanentizing the eschatons, of course
<heat> you get a terminal dude
<heat> then you just linux away
<heat> crash out with a GPLv2+GPLv3++LGPL overdose
<nikolar> i've been linuxing away through termux for years
<the_oz_> snow crash :(
<heat> yeah but termux is hacky
<nikolar> sure
<zid> can you not
<zid> run native linux programs on android?
<heat> no
<zid> that's mean of them
<zid> do you have to write them in JAVA
<heat> android can run native programs, for the linux kernel, but not normal linux programs
<heat> because they use stuff like bionic instead of glibc
<zid> right
<heat> and the paths are all weird
<zid> but you could just.. run your own init? :D
<zid> I guess you'd run out of ram, and you'd miss out on being able to say
<zid> use the screen
<heat> run out of ram why?
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<zid> cos you'll be running a full userspace on top of their userspace
<zid> static link an entire gnu system into your one binary sounds fun
<heat> oh that doesn't work
<heat> how would you run your own init then?
<heat> you don't get containers or chroot under android
<zid> as long as like, ps, didn't choke, who cares if there are tasks running that I technically didn't start?
<zid> unless they started sending me weird signals I didn't understand I guess
<heat> termux AIUI recompiles every package
<heat> and the termux app is just a terminal emulator + exec /bin/sh
<nikolar> ye
<nikolar> basically
<zid> I'd expect to have to port anyway
<zid> just because, touch controls and whatever windowing system they use
<nikolar> i don't know how well graphical software works with termux
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<nikolar> never tried
<zid> rather than running my own X on top
<zid> 99% of gamblers quit before they win big :(
<heat> nikolar: are termux packages linked to glibc?
<heat> i think so? maybe?
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<heat> cc is clang which is infuriating and literally 1984 and infringes my rights
<nikolar> nop
<nikolar> bionic
<zid> beronic if you're intel
<nikolar> and yeah, cc being clang
<heat> hah ew
<nikolar> and, even worse, gcc being clang, is eww
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<heat> that explains why i had issues doing a ./configure back then
<zid> if clang is so good why isn't it cc2
<nikolar> exactly
<heat> crt0 was so good we got crt1
<nikolar> obviously
<kof673> catopt_{0-13} cmmopt_{0-14} catalina for propeller c compiler i had to make wrapper scripts to invoke with qemu-x86_64 :D
<kof673> mv foo foo.orig ; #! /bin/sh qemu-x86_64 -cpu Nehalem -L x86_64_glibc/ "$0".orig $@ # et voila lol
<kof673> * 1 wrapper script for like 30 binaries
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<d1rg3_> why did the MONOLITHIC kernel win over the microkernels? linus's gospel or something else?
<d1rg3_> (genuine question, guys(
<d1rg3_> (imma noob)
<heat> monolithic fast and pragmatic
<kof673> i thought that was going to be a chicken + road question and was disappointed to read the rest :/
<nikolar> because fast and simpler to work with
<heat> the paradigm now (on relevant monolithic kerne systems) is either "push everything to a userspace process" or "push everything up to the kernel", depending on the task
<heat> but it works well
<d1rg3_> i see, thanx guys:3
<heat> for completeness' sake, an example for the first would be "userspace networking stack (kernel bypass)" and for the second "eBPF"
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<Ermine> termux has runit
<Ermine> so you basically have an init system there
<heat> not systemd, so sad
<Ermine> systemd wants to be pid 1
<Ermine> ask android folks to adopt systemd
<heat> literally
<heat> 1984
<Ermine> no
<Ermine> as it happens, runit is just sufficient for termux
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<nikolar> termux is using runit?
<nikolar> i didn't know it had any kind of daemon supervision
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<heat> ugh im having issues booting on riscv again :/
<sortie> yo heat
<sortie> how goes temp
<heat> how goes what
<sortie> the warm place
<heat> what warm place
<sortie> /tmp
<heat> it goes
<sortie> heat: I may just have built Sortix 1.3.0-dev how are you
<heat> what
<heat> new release just dropped?
<sortie> Yep-ish-but-not-really. I simulated test releases of Sortix 1.1.0, 1.1.1, 1.2.0, and began dev work on 1.3.0-dev
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<heat> bro's skipping 1.1 AND 1.2
<sortie> All in isolated git, isolated release directory with separate signing keys, to test if the infrastructure can actually handle a release, and if the upgrade mechanisms actually work across large distances
<sortie> Legit wrote a script to simulate a bunch of release branches and commits
<nikolar> heat: what riscv thing are you targeting
<heat> qemu virt
<heat> i dont actually have a board, what am i, a gazillionaire?
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<nikolar> Lol they are cheap though
<nikolar> And you're employed
<Ermine> nikolar is a gazillionaire for sure
<nikolar> Obviously
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<heat> i only start on the 15th
<heat> next month i'll have all sorts of SBCs
<heat> anyway i just got gcc to compile a memcpy that calls memcpy
<heat> i forgor how to solve this without -fno-builtin
<heat> meh i'll set fno-builtin for the whole libk
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<sortie> -ffreestanding
<geist> i just set that for libc
<sortie> (implies -fno-builtin)
<geist> -fno-builtin that is, keeps it from recursing
<geist> since in general builtin is good for performance, etc
<heat> yeah... i could swear i had that enabled
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<nikolar> heat: all sorts: arm and riscv
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<heat> alright, riscv port fixed
<heat> opensbi seems to act weird
<Ermine> heat: congrats on getting employed btw
<heat> as in it keeps flip flopping around between ELF and !ELF or whatever, kinda weird
<heat> Ermine: thanks
<sortie> heat: I had so many cursed issues back in the day when it turned out I didn't compile libk with all the right flags, especially I forgot -mno-red-zone
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<heat> i could've sworn was doing it right
<heat> i was definitely aware of the issue at least
<heat> weird.
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<nikolar> heat: let me know once you get a sparc sbc
<heat> lol
<nikolar> indeed
<ring0_starr> you can make one with the guts from a tadpole computing laptop
<ring0_starr> remember those??
<nikolar> if you find me one
<nikolar> that doesn't cost a kidney and a half
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<ring0_starr> they used to be so cheap back when i was actively junk collecting
<ring0_starr> man, tech is fucked
<ring0_starr> hope yall are happy with the state of things
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<kof673> i don't think that is a tech thing, everything has that :D MERCHANT, n. One engaged in a commercial pursuit. A commercial pursuit is one in which the thing pursued is a dollar.
<kof673> the crackhead will break in your house and pawn your stuff .......not a tech thing......
<kof673> means to an end......
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