<bslsk05>
lwn.net: Resistance to Rust abstractions for DMA mapping [LWN.net]
* zid`
plays the world's tiniest violin for the rusters
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<heat>
hch is a lovely guy
<heat>
epic tantrums
<ring0_starr>
look i'm sorry but the use of rust isn't exactly a small done on a whim like picking up a different flavor of ice cream at the grocery store one day
<ring0_starr>
a small thing*
<ring0_starr>
the slow, creeping replacement with rust steadily erodes the architecture of the kernel
<ring0_starr>
not only is the language itself vastly different, but it invites a different mindset into reasoning how to structure the code and the kernel's abstractions itself
<heat>
he waited until v8 to give out a one-line NAK
<ring0_starr>
rust version of Linux should be its own separate thing, but it's not, because the rust users want to piggyback on Linux's current marketshare
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<heat>
not only is it a NAK he also NAK'd rust ppl maintaining it and whatnot
<ring0_starr>
at the very, very least, don't expect C maintainers to make a single change to their workflow
<ring0_starr>
as far as they're concerned, rust-in-the-kernel is some made up imaginary thing happening in its own universe
<ring0_starr>
but we can't even have that because of virtual anime girls like Lina complaining about how DRI make rust hawwd :'(
<heat>
they quite literally said "we're maintaining this" only to be NAK'd the fuck off
<heat>
weird fucking tantrums, but i guess not unusual from the guy that NAKs anything that moves
<ring0_starr>
aawwww DMA too hawwd in rust
<ring0_starr>
you know what people told Golang users when they realized they couldn't make linked lists in their beloved language?
<ring0_starr>
add something to your language to fix it you fucks
<ring0_starr>
but rust is so holy that the world has to shift around it
<heat>
no one is shifting anything
<heat>
rust is actually C compatible
<ring0_starr>
because we have these lkml rust fights
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<ring0_starr>
that's the reason why things aren't shifting that much
<heat>
please, show me any rust patch or similar that was changing C code around to satisfy rust
<ring0_starr>
it influences designs and abstractions
<ring0_starr>
not existing C code perhaps
<heat>
influences them to be safer? oh the humanity
<zid`>
I think he just doesn't want to deal with it, them, or even discussions about it or them
<zid`>
which is asocial, but, up to him, also, lol rust
<heat>
yes, this isn't a technical issue, it's a fuck you issue
<Matt|home>
hi.
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<bslsk05>
lore.kernel.org: Re: [GIT PULL] MM updates for 6.14-rc1 - Linus Torvalds
<ring0_starr>
oh he dropped
<ring0_starr>
in any case, "C devs don't need to do anything to support Rust" is a total lie
<ring0_starr>
in order for linus to be BDFL he needs to be the D part. but instead of choosing a direction for his own kernel we get this stupid "let's try to please everybody" nonsense and end up with situations like above where he afraid of pissing off Rust people because they use incompatible tooling
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<Ermine>
<heat> influences them to be safer? oh the humanity <-- i'd say "oh sweet Liberty!"
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<Ermine>
but, dma-api people are asshats by some accounts
<kof673>
i always wonder if asshat was a play on arhat
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<fedaykin>
linus's take might be right, let people try, if they fail and it doesn't take off, drop it
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<fedaykin>
i like c, i don't like cpp, and i don't like rust, but bugs and data races i don't like even more =)
<fedaykin>
just a few days ago i've received a report for a v3.10 kernel, slub corruption, no reproducer, happens intermittently, sigh
<fedaykin>
i guess upgrade to the latest and greatest and try again =)
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<sortiecat>
Another day, another FOSDEM
<sortiecat>
It's really cool to see Haiku, Managarm, HelenOS, and Redox have a presence here
<Ermine>
pine64 is going to hold community meetup
<sortiecat>
Walking around all of these stalls with people peddling their open source projects. This is the Bazar we were warned about.
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<MrBonkers>
FOSDEM gang represent
<GeDaMo>
There's a #fosdem channel
<zid`>
is there a #gedamo-puzzles channel
<zid`>
speaking of, I'm playing polimines 2
<GeDaMo>
Did you see the one I posted yesterday?
<zid`>
oh, timeguessr, no
<zid`>
whoopsie
<zid`>
oh this is an old thing but on a new uri?
<zid`>
10 years, 330 miles away, I'll take that:D
<zid`>
okay that was easy, 0 years, 9 miles
<GeDaMo>
Was it a picture of your house? :P
<zid`>
1.9 miles that time :p
<zid`>
I apparently am very good at ...uganda
<zid`>
Okay let's go for the daily
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<zid`>
35,275 :(
<zid`>
I would like to complain about two of them
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<GeDaMo>
42,417
<zid`>
I got two of them within a kilometer, but I missed *by the entire width of the united states* on another :D (and guessed newcastle not kilkeel for the fucking newcastle to kilkeel bus)
<GeDaMo>
I also guessed Newcastle even though it says Kilkeel on the picture :P
<zid`>
it's the newcastle to kilkeel bus service depot
<zid`>
so it's either end
<zid`>
katmandu and siem reap I got within a kilometer lol
<heat_>
sortiecat, dudeeeeee i can't connect to irc.sortix.org
<heat_>
your ipv6 proxy is fucky wucky
<sortiecat>
Oh no
<sortiecat>
Apparently there may be some rate limiting since it all comes from the same IP
<sortiecat>
At fosdem listening to fsfe propaganda will fix later
<heat_>
did you go to willy's presentation?
<gog>
sortiecat: what does that call do
<heat_>
about memmap
<gog>
provide me with a spec and i'll implement it
<heat_>
it rizzes up dua lipa
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<sortiecat>
gog: leaves the Charles de Gaulle airport
<gog>
cant do, my kernel would never be in france
<heat_>
fr*nce
<heat_>
watch your language
<sortiecat>
Viva la Karnal
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<gog>
vive l'kernêl
<Shaddox404>
Wasn't Kernal the original spelling of kernel?
<heat_>
idk man i'm just a clown
<heat_>
just clowning about
<Shaddox404>
From what i remember, in the Amiga and Commodore days, it was officially written as Kernal in a few places
<Shaddox404>
*from what i remember reading
<heat_>
yeah but that's just in the amiga
<Shaddox404>
Ahh
<heat_>
UNIX was never kernal, always kernel
<Ermine>
heat_: 3.10 powers my router
<Shaddox404>
I see
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<kof673>
> Karnal # i think fsck and karnal knowledge is something else...
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<heat_>
Ermine, the gang gets RCE'd
<Ermine>
router <-- looking for a botnet to join
<heat_>
"The KERNAL was known as kernel[6] inside of Commodore since the PET days, but in 1980 Robert Russell misspelled the word as kernal in his notebooks"
<Ermine>
KERNAL
<Ermine>
so it's a meme that became an official name that became a meme
<Shaddox404>
I love it xD
<heat_>
LINUS KERNAL
<Ermine>
time for a new router ig
<sortiecat>
Anybody else got in trouble with the infamous Colonel Panic?
<heat_>
Ermine, i got a "brand new" (few years out of date) router from my ISP
<Shaddox404>
Ermine: I think TP-Link is good. NetSys iirc was good.
<heat_>
it's already running an EOL'd kernel
<heat_>
in the 4.x series
<Shaddox404>
What about OpenWRT and DD-WRT?
<Ermine>
dd-wrt is basically ded
<Shaddox404>
RIP
<Shaddox404>
There is another solution... which is to use a Raspberry Pi as a router?
<Ermine>
it is done by a single person, still monorepo and still svn
<heat_>
that might be the worse solution ever
<heat_>
worst*
<Shaddox404>
I agree
<heat_>
unless there's a random rpi out there with two ethernet ports (both high speed)
<Shaddox404>
Is it possible to add a new Ethernet port using the GPIO pins? I am not too familiar with RPi
<Ermine>
it's unneccessary if you do router on a stick
<Ermine>
but you'd need manageable switch for that
<heat_>
you can technically do ethernet in GPIO but you'll get 1/10th the speed
<Shaddox404>
Ah
<Shaddox404>
so 1 Gbps = 100mbps which isnt too bad for small scale stuff imo. Of course not for browsing, gaming, etc.
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<heat_>
you can most definitely browse and game with 100mbps
<Ermine>
for gaming you need good ping as well
<heat_>
you dont need bandwidth for gaming at all
<heat_>
latency is practically the only important bit
<heat_>
and lack of packet loss
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<Shaddox404>
yea, but when you're paying for 1 Gbps connection, using just 100 Mbps makes no sense imo. I'd rather buy a 100 Mbps internet plan and use 10 Mbps, its more effective that way
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<Ermine>
Anyway, internet cable in my flat is 100Mbps only, and it has only two pairs
<Ermine>
heat_: btw ISPs hand over routers there as well
<Ermine>
but maybe that's only the case with GPON connections
<heat_>
wdym
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<fedaykin>
heat_: i know, but customers are still running it (rhel7), and they don't like to upgrade for whatever reasons
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<heat_>
hey rhel7 is technically not EOL
<heat_>
so you might get a fix for that
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<Ermine>
heat_: in our exurb house there's an isp-provided router
<Ermine>
(or, as isp called it, optical terminal)
<heat_>
yeah that's pretty standard here too
<Ermine>
i heard that it's pretty much impossible to have your own router when internet is provided over gpon, but it might be outdated info
<gog>
hii
* Ermine
gives gog a piece of cheese
* gog
prr
<gog>
wait no
* gog
fascinated
<gog>
now that this thing works i'm once again at a loss of how to proceed
<gog>
there's so much to rewrite
<GeDaMo>
Might as well just start from scratch :|
<gog>
you're right
* Ermine
feels like opengl'ing today
<gog>
starting from scratch is always the right answer
<GeDaMo>
"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe"
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<heat_>
Ermine, yes
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<Ermine>
heat_: but in the flat with ethernet connection the router was ours since the beginning
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<cloudowind>
have you arrived to belgium already
<geist>
that implies they weren't in belgium already
<geist>
which is an impossibility, since we're all in belgium
<geist>
one way or another
<geist>
amirite?
<gog>
are you in belgium
<gog>
i'mnot
<gog>
i odn
<gog>
i don't even know what belgium is
<cloudowind>
i remember sortie saying he was going to attend this open source meeting in belgie and saw him host .be though he already is there
<cloudowind>
goodays boss , goodays gog
<geist>
yeah sortiecat has been there for a few days now i think
<geist>
they were talking about it a couple days ago
<sortiecat>
sortie is everywhere
<sortiecat>
Look to the wind
<sortiecat>
There it blows
<geist>
sortie is the matrix
<sortiecat>
To the exit
<geist>
sortie is the blue *and* the red pill
<sortiecat>
sortie is a general purpose pill
<geist>
sortie is the magical girl that has turned into existance herself
<sortiecat>
Wait what
<geist>
all hail sortie
<sortiecat>
I applied for funding:D
<geist>
praise be sortie, she who has sacrificed herself so we all can be magical girls
<sortiecat>
Talked to the nlnet ngi0 people and they were nice
<sortiecat>
Also I totally missed the memo that I have been gender swapped
<geist>
nice! you been dropping sortie cards on everyone?
<sortiecat>
Apparently uh business cards are uh useful
<sortiecat>
I had no idea
<sortiecat>
I did rudely upstage Haiku
<gog>
geist: sortie is haruhi suzumaya?
<gog>
also thank you for the gender swapping, i needed it
<sortiecat>
If you're pulling a haruhi containment effort on me can you please improve my love life
<geist>
well, i was thinking more of sortie is the Madoka of our time
<geist>
but i think haruhi suzumaya would work too (i've actually never watched that)
<sortiecat>
gog there's big gender and little gender and pdp11 gender and
<sortiecat>
Sometimes I just stay at home for a month and do nothing and then do something crazy
<gog>
if you want to improve your love life you need to become pdp11 gender trust me
<sortiecat>
Gotta bottle episode now and then for budget reasons
<geist>
sortiecat: are you sitting on the floor on the corner of the convention floor because you're tired of walking all day and they dont have any chairs?
<sortiecat>
geist theydontknow.jpg that Charli talked about me during brat summer
<sortiecat>
I'm cozy in my hotel room
<geist>
or is this the after hours party for a nerd convention that is mostly a bunch of quiet people standing around the edge of he room on their laptop ircing while a DJ tries to get someone to dance?
<sortiecat>
Oh right so I found the Haiku people
<sortiecat>
They showed off their Firefox and smooth youtube playback
<sortiecat>
I opened up sortix.org on their haiku laptop
<geist>
did you start having cold sweats like in that scene in american psycho where they showed off each business card?
<gog>
lmao
<geist>
look at that playback... so smooth
<sortiecat>
The I pulled out my laptop and said hold my beer
<sortiecat>
Hahaha
<heat_>
sortie did you go to the memmap thingy
<heat_>
dont tell me you didnt do it
<geist>
omg the memmap thing? geez i wouldn't alk about that in public
<bslsk05>
fosdem.org: FOSDEM 2025 - Comparing Fuchsia components and Linux containers
<sortiecat>
Alas
<sortiecat>
I took a more quiet day today
<sortiecat>
Talked more to people
<sortiecat>
Also was hard to get into some of the rooms I wanted to
<geist>
twas yesterday
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<sortiecat>
And streaming on site was not possible, net was too unreliable
<sortiecat>
But was fun
<geist>
you are the worst magical girl ever!
<sortiecat>
Would recommend
<sortiecat>
I MAKE MY OWN MAGIC
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<sortiecat>
I was doing the hallway track and getting to know the people with the funding
<geist>
ah i see
<sortiecat>
Cus uh I kinda wanted to know that idea was sustainable
<geist>
passing out the sortix business cards?
<geist>
leaving some on the table, etc
<sortiecat>
I really need some of those
<sortiecat>
I did show off my sortix laptop to a few people
<sortiecat>
It's clear to me that I need a real presentation and stand there next year
<sortiecat>
It was really nice to meet the haiku, genode, managarm, redox peeps
<sortiecat>
I had fun discussion signals in depth with managarm and redox
<sortiecat>
That was the real magic girl stuff geist
<heat_>
ok but what idea did you have
<sortiecat>
oh and I'm visiting the EU Parliament tomorrow
<sortiecat>
Heat is gonna steal my ideas even though they're open source
<heat_>
chances are i will not steal your ideas
<sortiecat>
heat we still need to find a fancy name for it like they did with reproducible builds
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<sortiecat>
WIP codename is source build tracing
<sortiecat>
I've said too much
<heat_>
uhhhh yep sounds like i will not steal it
<sortiecat>
You're already writing the paper aren't you
<sortiecat>
heat also you're going to fosdem next year
<sortiecat>
Sortix needs to have a presence and you're the most active person in the sortix IRC
<geist>
you going to get EU to adopt sortix as the OS for all governmental computers?
<sortiecat>
So you're being assigned to the Sortix stand to tell people about Sortix
<sortiecat>
Geist just think of how unhackable it is when networking doesn't have drivers
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<geist>
yah if everything is SLIP then you need physical access to hack it
<heat_>
i'm not going to fosdem next year
<sortiecat>
Air gap the sortixen
<sortiecat>
heat it has been decided
<sortiecat>
You're one of the highest ranking Sortix members heat
<sortiecat>
You always weigh in on all matters technical
<heat_>
yeah and you ignore me
<sortiecat>
Not to mention your novel QA work connecting to irc.sortix.org
<ring0_starr>
which sort algorithms does sortix support?
<heat_>
the quick ones
<sortiecat>
I'm pretty sure qsort is heapsort atm
<ring0_starr>
that's not quicksort though
<sortiecat>
quicksort is uh stupid
<sortiecat>
Worst case is terrible
<ring0_starr>
so you're saying that if i wanted to sort through pages by physical address using bogosort, wouldn't be possible even with an OS called "sortix"?
<sortiecat>
Why is it even being teached
<sortiecat>
I need -ix options to sort
<ring0_starr>
Why even live
* gog
bogosorts
<ring0_starr>
your only purpose in life was SORTING
<gog>
did you get your photos sorted
<sortiecat>
And CATing
<geist>
because bubble sort lets you slow down and enjoy the scenery
<gog>
bogos borted :alien:
<sortiecat>
gog dont talk to me about sorting photos
* gog
cats
<geist>
now i'm gonn have to watch one of those sorting vids again
<sortiecat>
It's never ending
<gog>
i've entirely given up on keeping photos sorted
<gog>
i just have a directory for breki and another for everything else
<geist>
dump it into google photos: problem solved. it's sorted however it wants no options
<heat_>
what is "offering a voluntary exit to your employees", if not love
<ring0_starr>
that... thing... truly is a beast at sorting
<geist>
heat_: right? what a sweetheart
<gog>
floofy baby
<sortiecat>
I wasn't even offered the choice they all tool care of it for me and I didn't have to worry about deciding I just had to sign here and receive the love
<geist>
mandatory love is best love
<heat_>
who'd refuse love anyway?
<sortiecat>
My consent wasn't even required
<geist>
it's all consentual non-consent
<geist>
that was part of the employment contract
<sortiecat>
All right there in the contract and labor laws
<sortiecat>
I jest but honestly they went very well about the layoff in my case and I have zero complaints about it
<geist>
hmm, you visited Stockholm recently?
<sortiecat>
And now I'm having fun in the open source world
<sortiecat>
Haven't been to Stockholm since end of September
<sortiecat>
I did do Oslo in end October
<geist>
was thinkig you might want to get your syndrome looked at
<sortiecat>
lol
* geist
is on fire today
<sortiecat>
No I do mean that about my layoff
<sortiecat>
A VP literally told me the truth to my face, that they were moving my job to Mexico to save money
<sortiecat>
I appreciate them owning up to it
<geist>
100% i think working in the US in a high cost area is actually a liability now
<sortiecat>
Apparently Aarhus is a high cost area
<sortiecat>
I had no idea
<sortiecat>
But they gave me a very generous severance on top of the legally required minimum
<geist>
also EU has a bunch of labor laws that make it hard to push people around
<sortiecat>
6 months pay and stock, with 6 months pay on top too
<geist>
yeah that was extraordinary
<sortiecat>
They also forgot to take my vacation days from me
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<sortiecat>
So that turned out to be another months pay
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<sortiecat>
13 months pay for doing nothing
<sortiecat>
I was laughing all the way to the bank
<geist>
i eally dont think i could not do something that long
<geist>
or more worrysome i could get used to it
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<sortiecat>
I just did all the crazy stuff I was planning to do anyway
<sortiecat>
I'm not sure how I planned to do my work while also doing all that stuff last summer
<geist>
i know what i could do: RUUUUUST
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<sortiecat>
You wanna do rust?
<geist>
it is the safe word of the day: Rust
<sortiecat>
Rust
<heat_>
sortiecat, denmark is high cost compared to mexico that's for sure
<heat_>
or china
<sortiecat>
India was also mentioned
<sortiecat>
You know what's high cost?
<geist>
yah i assume denmark is expensive
<sortiecat>
Paying me for 13 months to do nothing
<heat_>
SF is like way more expensive
<heat_>
but it is what it is
<sortiecat>
When you're legally allowed to make me work for 5 months
<geist>
is sortiecat drunk?
<heat_>
quite possibly
<sortiecat>
I'm not office you drunk
<sortiecat>
Actually been sober since solstice
<geist>
hmm i wonder what the bar scene is like in brussels?
<geist>
actually for that matter is brussels actually nice/interesting/etc to visit?
<heat_>
ok so not drunk, just crackhead energy
<sortiecat>
I picked the wrong time to not drink for a while
<sortiecat>
All those poor dubbels beer going undrunk
<sortiecat>
Honestly Brussels seems nice
<geist>
oh gosh yes, forgot that belgium has the best beer ever
<heat_>
i believe brussels is quite a historical city
<sortiecat>
The bars in this district all look glorious
<heat_>
and the EU is there
<sortiecat>
I'd recommend honestly
<sortiecat>
heat come next February
<heat_>
ALL PRAISE THE GREAT LEADER VON DER LEYEN
<sortiecat>
It's nice there
<geist>
you have no excuse you can even take a train!
<sortiecat>
the PRESIDENTIAL
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<sortiecat>
btw I'm on my phone
<geist>
really? surprised. it's not autocapitalizing everything
<sortiecat>
I have barely seen the city though
<heat_>
>100% i think working in the US in a high cost area is actually a liability now
<geist>
i do wonder: do phones auto-cap all nouns in german? that's a tougher piece of logic
<heat_>
so why do they keep hiring there
<sortiecat>
Oh I like manually un auto capitalize for STYLE
<heat_>
i know tech was slowly moving to texas for a couple of years
<MrBonkers>
sortiecat lol we did the same thing at haiku with ironclad and Managarm
<MrBonkers>
it was nice meeting up with everyone attending, see you all next year!
<sortiecat>
Heyyyy MrBonkers
<sortiecat>
Made me so happy to say hi real quick
<sortiecat>
Amazing to meet the people from the chatrooms irl
<sortiecat>
Hehehe I referred to the Haiku people as my rivals
<sortiecat>
It's all good fun because all our systems indirectly help each other and pave the way for each other
<MrBonkers>
Yeah absolutely
<sortiecat>
And we're all fun nerdy friends
<MrBonkers>
also re the beer: Belgium has basically the best beers in the world. If you like beers (like me) you should come visit :)
<sortiecat>
I'm still teasing y'all to self host your websites
<gog>
i want to go back to nl :(
<gog>
i'm going to self-host sophia eventually
<gog>
but not on sophia because i don't have anything working rn
<sortiecat>
I'm not even really wanting beer ATM but I kinda know I should get some Belgian beer cus it's awesome
<geist>
oh you have a Blaster Master tank? lucky!
<MrBonkers>
We will. Fuck it I’m going to port a proper webserver this week
<sortiecat>
DO IT
<MrBonkers>
We still need tcp server side merged in but that’s in progress too
<sortiecat>
Proxy into your VM
<sortiecat>
That'll help a lot with security concerns
<geist>
i need to polish off some LK net stack changes and get it rolled into mainline and then bust out a quick static http server
<sortiecat>
Since the proxy will handle malformed inputs and packets
<heat_>
i should port nginx i guess, then
<sortiecat>
I did that with Sortix for a while until I put the VM raw on the internet
<clever>
geist: having lwip in lk already saved me a lot of time, i was able to get tftp going fairly easily
<sortiecat>
nginx was a clean enough port
<MrBonkers>
Or should I finish systemd first?
<sortiecat>
Webserver
<sortiecat>
For the awesome
<heat_>
systems
<heat_>
systemd
<heat_>
for the tears
<MrBonkers>
True. It’s been pain
<gog>
kjarna is my systemd
<sortiecat>
Seriously it's such a showoff to tell people your website runs itself
<geist>
side note: am i the only one that always reads 'not gonna lie inx' every time i see nginx?
<MrBonkers>
but we’re getting there
<heat_>
lol
<geist>
in the old days it was always 'lemme see screenshots'
<heat_>
MrBonkers, what libc are yall using?
<MrBonkers>
both it is then
<geist>
if you didn't have a screenshot you were garbage
<MrBonkers>
heat_ mlibc
<heat_>
oh yes right, ofc
<sortiecat>
Geist screenshot plz
<geist>
MrBonkers: wait, on haiku? i thought it was glibc based?
<heat_>
i forgor :skull:
<sortiecat>
plox
<heat_>
mrbonkers is managarm
<MrBonkers>
Yep
<geist>
oh okay
<heat_>
soooo how many systemd patches are you standing on
<sortiecat>
relibx
<sortiecat>
relibc
<sortiecat>
mlibc
<MrBonkers>
currently three really big ones including a load of debug logging. And some musl patches from gentoo
<geist>
i've been meaning to look into managarm sometime
<gog>
rnlibc
<sortiecat>
I just call it libc
<geist>
always interesting to see what folks are doing with microkernels
<gog>
what if i make a microkernel
<gog>
will you love me then
<sortiecat>
It was kinda hilarious to see two microkernel Unix signal presentations in a row
<heat_>
MrBonkers, can you like, selectively turn off hard-to-port parts? do these patches disable them manually?
<sortiecat>
Really good talks too
<MrBonkers>
Ive been informed that was on purpose sortiecat
<heat_>
does it cope well with no linux/*.h?
<sortiecat>
MrBonkers, the best part was actually that the talks didn't overlap, novel focuses on each
<sortiecat>
gog magical girl always loves you
<MrBonkers>
heat_ we have the Linux kernel headers installed so that’s not a problem. And we already ran udev (eudev) so that’s was already a thing. I did turn off everything in meson configure. We found a lot of socket bugs (usually in datagram sockets) which is good
<heat_>
MrBonkers, ugh that sucks
<sortiecat>
You're speaking heat's labgu6
<sortiecat>
Language
<heat_>
i do not have linux/
<MrBonkers>
other nasty stuff that we don’t implement and seems optional (memory pressure, additional cgroups stuff), we patched out
<heat_>
i have a separate, simpler uapi/
<sortiecat>
heat behold the Linux!
<geist>
yah this is why i've stayed away from posixy stuff for a long time. i just really have no desire to dig through that quagmire of things
<MrBonkers>
Our cgroups itself is mostly a stub anyway
<sortiecat>
I look forward to exploring Brussels the next few days
<MrBonkers>
It’s a fun city. Don’t forget NATO HQ if that’s your thing (guided tours take a week to get sorted or so I’ve been told, so that might be tight)
<sortiecat>
hear I heard Lennart talk and it all makes sense now
<sortiecat>
* heat
<MrBonkers>
I missed the poettering talk. The keynote was already full
<heat_>
wdym
<MrBonkers>
I wanted to go
<sortiecat>
I got there a little early
<heat_>
aww NATO HQ would be cool
<sortiecat>
He was a fun speaker
<sortiecat>
heat FOSDEM 26
<heat_>
did you tell him you have your own init system that solves everything systemd does but simpler and better and fuck him he's dumb
<sortiecat>
Lots of other keynote speakers that were more so so to listen to
<sortiecat>
I do enjoy the perks of being a Nato member
<sortiecat>
Surprised to hear you port systemd
<sortiecat>
I'd love to read about your experiences there
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<sortiecat>
Since it's traditionally considered so Linux
<heat_>
experiences: very bad super terrible
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<sortiecat>
fosdem was also fun in the sense that you go to a talk and realize you went to a software conservatory or fsfe rant
<sortiecat>
There was a whole track and then this other guy that did a talk saying the whole thing was useless
<sortiecat>
Some people you can just tell have already made up their mind
<sortiecat>
My favorite talk was the StartTLS one
<heat_>
whaaaaaaaat no way
<sortiecat>
The idea was to ignore all the stuff the server sent and send the stuff you're gonna send anyway regardless of what the server sends you
<sortiecat>
Perfect no notes
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<sortiecat>
It takes great minds to make things simple
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<MrBonkers>
I’ll be sure to try to write some thoughts about the porting process and share them. Quick TLDR: without a shitload of Linux interfaces (which thank lord we already mostly have) it’s near impossible. You’re gonna do a bunch of patching, as it does direct dyscalculie (and that’s stupid)
<MrBonkers>
*syscalls
<MrBonkers>
thanks autocorrect
<heat_>
lol
<heat_>
which ones?
<MrBonkers>
Among others, memfd_create (and newer glibc have a wrapper)
<heat_>
oh that's alright
<MrBonkers>
Oh it’s not using the wrapper
<MrBonkers>
i Wish
<heat_>
i've been meaning to implement memfd_create anyway
<MrBonkers>
ah
<MrBonkers>
Just look at missing_syscall.h
<heat_>
the implementation on linux is almost quite literally tmpfs
<MrBonkers>
and be prepared to implement support for your OS in raw_clone
<heat_>
i'm also going to eventually implement eventfd, signalfd
<heat_>
i'm actually implementing real clone right now
<gog>
i have a unique idea
<gog>
what if files
<MrBonkers>
as just clone() isn’t good enough and sometimes it invokes a direct syscall for it
<heat_>
though i would be surprised if systemd does any really weird clone call? probably just unshares namespaces and shit
<MrBonkers>
heat_ timerfd and inotify and epoll are guaranteed used
<heat_>
oh yeah i need all of those
<MrBonkers>
unshare and nsenter are a thing yes
<MrBonkers>
we stub that to ENOSYS
<heat_>
i meant shit like CLONE_NEWPID and stuff
<MrBonkers>
i don’t have the source in front of me so you’d need to check
<MrBonkers>
systemd being systemd, assume it does until proven otherwise tho
<kof673>
are those binary files or text files gog?
<kof673>
records, or a stream
<gog>
yes
<kof673>
:D
<kof673>
a series of tubes/pipelines
<gog>
i wish i wrote down what i hoped to accomplish with my bootloader change because it's totally incompatible with what i was doing before |
<zid`>
I knowthat feel
<gog>
i mean i know it has to do with modularization
<gog>
and having One Way to do things
<MrBonkers>
heat_ oh don’t forget netlink, udev needs it and I wouldn’t be surprised if systemd does memes with it too
<MrBonkers>
and it can work with BPF but that might be patchable
<gog>
heh systemd-memed
<MrBonkers>
yes
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<heat>
MrBonkers, i have a bpf interpreter i need to merge (eBPF slowly WIP too)
<heat>
as for netlink, yeah i also need that, eventually
<heat>
even freebsd has it
<MrBonkers>
Damn
<MrBonkers>
nice work
<heat>
i even wrote a JITter!
<heat>
btf actually sucks because there seems to be little way of generating btf (or even ctf) from C++
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<monkeyPlus>
hey. Without ASLR, are shared libraries, loaded at the same address space?
<monkeyPlus>
say, sqrt(); always loaded at a fixed address?
<heat>
no
<heat>
i mean, if it is the same exact program and your loading process is deterministic (it usually is), yes
<monkeyPlus>
what are the factors, that affect, the choice of of address space range?
<zid`>
The OS
<heat>
well, lets make this clear
<heat>
i am talking about UNIX
<heat>
and ELF
<monkeyPlus>
ytes
<monkeyPlus>
ye
<monkeyPlus>
yes
<heat>
i know PE is kinda fucked in that sense
<zid`>
on a windows machine you'll have all sorts of globally injected dlls