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<rafael2k>
Maemo - providing a true tablet PC experience, full support for keyboard and mouse - much beyond a traditional phone Linux distro - from phone calls and everything you expect from a phone distro plus a true Linux experience - conversations, X, glibc and good ol' debian/devuan base!
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<rafael2k>
(for our PR team - sent during the net split)
<rafael2k>
: P
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<Wizzup>
hehe
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<norayr>
so i don't know. i spent whole night, but it looks like the 'live-wallpaper' icon is ok and visible in 'settings' on pp, but not on droid4. i did development on pp.
<norayr>
also shermans-aquarium plugin runs on pp for me, but not on droid. on droid it crashes the 'settings' app instead.
<norayr>
that's weird. i tried to add -O0 to builds because i had an issue before when with -O2 compiler was removing healthy code.
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<norayr>
but that i guess didn't help this time, or i didn't add it correctly. need to look in to it again.
<norayr>
anyway i'll open wiki pages for all apps i added.
<Wizzup>
that would be sweet @ wiki, ty
<norayr>
oh i just thought... may it be i installed something as a build dep on pp, which is not installed on droid from HAM. hmmm.
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<Wizzup>
norayr: could also perhaps be graphics driver differences
<unege[m]>
Hello all. Thanks, first of all, for your amazing efforts keeping maemo alive. I was thinking of ditching android and ios as their privacy visions are not in line with what I feel to be ethical. I have been researching my options, my current understanding of the situation is the following. 1. [Pixel 5 with Gos] 2. [PinePhone (pro) with any workable distro] 3. [N900 or droid 4 if usable in EU, with PMos, Maemo 5 or
<unege[m]>
Maemo-leste] 4. [Fxtec pro 1(x) with U touch] 5. [Librem 5 with PureOS]
<Wizzup>
hi, will get back to you momentarily
<unege[m]>
1. For the pixel I am getting the feeling this is a pretty workable solution, yet I am placing a lot of trust in google still. The device is of reasonable size, powerful, but it’s a google device and I guess the firmware is not open source?
<unege[m]>
2. For the pinephone I think the price is very attractive and I like where the software is going, the device is for me, way to large though.
<unege[m]>
3. N900 etc. My main questions here: I am a bit worried about how safe this is in use, and how usable it is. Prefarably (minimal) browsing, signal, matrix, calls and sms should be working. Is that manageable on n900? And on droid 4? That possible in EU? Can I still run maemo 5? What should I be looking into safety or usability wise?
<unege[m]>
4. Nice keyboard, too large of a device, relatively expensive, will it arrive any time soon? 5. Nice, too pricey, is this usable already though? And of course I don’t like the shipping time.
<unege[m]>
What are your views on this?
<unege[m]>
And i hope everything is getting through to irc properly, let me know if it did not
<humpelstilzchen[>
I agree with "too large device", but it seems that is what customers want...
<r3boot_>
privacy -> that depends on your threat model
<Wizzup>
Can't comment on (1, 4 and 5).
<Wizzup>
the pinephone battery life is the killer for me
<Wizzup>
I'm looking to use a droid 4 in the near future, I use it as mostly daily driver already
<Wizzup>
but signal doesn't work yet, and in europe you might get only 2g in your country phased out 3g
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<uvos>
so IMO:
<uvos>
1. Not surewhat gos is, pixel 5 afaik has no mainline linux support so whatever its is its liekly runing android base.
<uvos>
2. not ready to be you primary phone
<norayr>
Wizzup, me to, i use droid and pinephone only. my android and sailfish phones are shut down and lay in the drawer.
<uvos>
3. not ready to be your primary phone Maemo 5 was very mutch closed soruce (mutch more so than android even) and with all the work we have done in replaceing the closed stuff it still dosent have manny manny features you would expect from a phone
<norayr>
Wizzup, uvos - the question was about pinephone pro, not regular pinephone. pinephone pro uses the same chipset i have on pinebook, and i think pinebook battery life and pm support is in much better shape.
<norayr>
so i don't use pinephone pro, and i don't know, but would you comment on that?
<uvos>
4. mainline work seams stalled/slow going with that one, original fxtech has a serious hardware bug with the touchscreen, ut uses propriatary android base
<unege[m]>
r3boot_: I would want to disagree on that, I see things happening which I think are plain unethical as they limit people’s freedom. The effect has been researched as wel as it being a personal experience, but the plain knowledge that any picture or video others take of me gets analysed already gets me into a “brave new world” kind of mindstate, where I feel that at any kind of behaviour accepted in that current context can be used
<unege[m]>
against you in a later point in time in a different context. It is not a matter of being invisible but being limited in freedom of expression and the like.
<r3boot_>
unege[m]: if your threat model includes nation states, having a mobile at all is a risk
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<norayr>
i would say to me this is very uncomfortable that 'they' have my location because of my phone.
<norayr>
that's why on phones i have no sim cards, because sim cards mean identity. at least for our country one needs an id to get a phone number.
<norayr>
and first thing i did after unpacking the pinephone, i turned off the gsm switch on it.
<unege[m]>
Wizzup: Thanks, good info, how did you get your hands on one? US version? Working in the EU then? How? Any links? I thought droid 4 was a 4g phone?
<norayr>
maemo is great that it has wireguard and tor support via applets.
<uvos>
unege[m]: droid 4's lte modem works nowhere
<norayr>
and you can route all your traffic from the device via those connections.
<uvos>
it supports only verizons US band
<uvos>
and verizon dosent allow sutch old phones on there network
<uvos>
so its useless
<norayr>
but maemo doesn't have a full disk encryption (yet). though it is doable if you dedicate some time.
<uvos>
unege[m]: it was never sold in eu
<sicelo>
rafael2k: nice PR, but ... :-)
<uvos>
we imported them
<uvos>
(or bought in us)
<uvos>
also note that atm
<Wizzup>
unege[m]: 2g/3g works everywhere afaik
<Wizzup>
FDE really isn't that hard
<uvos>
there are no phone calls with the droid 4
* Wizzup
calls a friend now with the d4 ;)
<uvos>
it can not atm be used as your primary device
<norayr>
on n900: fremantle is not usable now. i guess you can make calls by sim card, but it has very old and vulnerable libssl, so almost nobody accepts encrypted connections from it.
<uvos>
Wizzup: right but this is not a workable solution to deploy to someone who ants to use it
<uvos>
as a user
<norayr>
you can run leste on it, or pmos, but the device is very weak, so i guess you don't want to.
<uvos>
n900 is also a lot futher away from phone calls
<uvos>
so its either only a phone with maemo 5 or its a extreamly slow tiny tablet with mainline linux
<sicelo>
Wizzup: ,uvos ... people on other distros are getting more than a day's usage with pp actually. Yes, it's suspend, but most people don't really mind.
<Wizzup>
I like being able to check my email and that stuff regularly
<Wizzup>
or listen to music
<Wizzup>
I do that all the time, every day
<unege[m]>
uvos: gos is grapheneos
<sicelo>
They do too :-)
<Wizzup>
if I wanted to just make calls I'll get a dumb phone :P
<Wizzup>
sicelo: they listen to music in suspend?
<uvos>
unege[m]: so android
<norayr>
i would say in generally: choose a distro which runs mainline kernel. if you are ready that your phone will have only several hours of life, and you need to keep it charged while you are indoors, then pinephone pro might be a workable solution for you. the community work is mostly around phosh/plasma, most distros have full disk encryption with luks. mostly everything works, but here and there there ar
<norayr>
e problems, and everything is slow at least on pp, not sure about ppp.
<uvos>
unege[m]: if you wan to use android without google any los phone will do
<sicelo>
It doesn't suspend for music playback. Droid4 goes into RET/OFF while playing music?
<norayr>
true. and i have opened terminals and jabber chats connected from devices.
<norayr>
and ssh sessions i don't want to disconnect.
<uvos>
but d4 uses farily little power in running mode
<Wizzup>
I think it can do into ret some of the time
<Wizzup>
actually
<Wizzup>
but yeah it still lasts a long time doing that
<Wizzup>
even with something like mpv which is not optimised for pm
<uvos>
negligibly
<norayr>
uvos, d4 is amazing. i run pidgin and email clients on it.
<uvos>
but yes
<norayr>
if we were able to run modern dino (i'll try to build, but i doubt it is possible) it'll also have video and audio calls.
<sicelo>
I'm just saying there's no need to bash pp that much. Suspend is definitely less optimal than the TI stuff, but their crust works somewhat
<Wizzup>
I am not bashing it :)
<norayr>
so probably for the one who asked the question, ppp will be a workable solution. i think it'll suspend and have a decent battery life. it'll accept calls. it'll have full disk encryption.
<Wizzup>
bbiab
<uvos>
norayr: maybe, but rn no
<norayr>
i myself think of ppp. just i already invested in pp and i save money.
<uvos>
im not bashing the pp, but i feal like its allways a worse option vs soemthing like a MSM8916 phone
<sicelo>
unege[m]: n900 is too old for everything now. Use it if you already have it, but buying one doesn't make any sense anymore
<uvos>
but then again i dont have one
<norayr>
pp is too big for me too, by the way. but well, what can i say.
<norayr>
unege, you can run sailfish on sony devices. it's very fast. you don't even need to buy android support. but it's not mainline kernel.
<uvos>
also sailfish is proprietary
<norayr>
i used sailfish for years but i realize they have proprietary libs and software written for sailfish requires a lot of efforts to port, or practically rewrite guis for generic linux devices.
<norayr>
so i gave up on it.
<uvos>
i dont really understand why you would want to run that over just LOS or something
<norayr>
so now i am on maemo only.
<uvos>
android is way more foss frendly than them
<norayr>
yep.
<sicelo>
Actually i believe pp has better power mgmt than any msm8916
<uvos>
sicelo: right so msm8916 dosent enter any idle states atm (at least xt1602 dosent)
<uvos>
but they can do dynamic pm
<uvos>
still lastst about 10 ish h
<uvos>
or so
<sicelo>
unege[m]: (5) L5 is a very good device, with nearly everything working. If it wasn't for the price, maybe I'd go after one
<uvos>
point is the chip can do dynamic pm
<uvos>
while the pp can not
<uvos>
sicelo: i dont know the state of the l5
<uvos>
do you? hows pm etc
<unege[m]>
sicelo: thanks, did decide to buy and try though
<sicelo>
I don't know about pm, but everything else is quite perfect. At least clayton (its maintainer in pmos) is able to daily it. Cameras working too
<sicelo>
Hehe, decided to buy N900? :-)
<unege[m]>
<norayr> "unege, you can run sailfish on..." <- Thanks, will look into the sony option too, I believe nemo is an option too right, to get rid of the proprietary stuff?
<norayr>
no no, my understanding is on sony devices you'll have proprietary kernel.
<unege[m]>
sicelo: Haha yes, for that pricepoint and the nostalgia, size and keyboard I just had to try anyways
<norayr>
and my problem with lineage/graphene is also that (am i right folks?) they use proprietary vendor kernel.
<sicelo>
Oh great. It's a nice choice tbh, as long as you understand that it's resource constrained. FYI, with some luck, I'll be getting a mint N909 or two in a couple of months, and will make it a daily driver ;-)
<norayr>
i will try to use fremantle soon because it has infrared option. we are moving to the place which has AC but that AC has no remote. i'll try to use n900's infrared for that.
<uvos>
norayr: right, altho android can now run on mainline kernels
<uvos>
norayr: so i have wanted to try that with xt875 or xt1602 for a while now
<norayr>
i'll also try to use n900 as a camera, that shoots raw files with Fcamera. purely nostalgic reasons. and i hope to be able to transfer the files via infrared to the very old instax printer.
<uvos>
in theroy either of those should be able to run a fully foss android stack
<uvos>
(with lots of features missing ofc)
<unege[m]>
norayr: Haha you just made my day
<norayr>
> xt875 or xt1602
<norayr>
sorry missed the point, try what?
<norayr>
ah, try to run mainline kernel?
<norayr>
but xt875 already has maemo port right
<uvos>
run android on mainline kernel
<norayr>
oh!
<unege[m]>
<sicelo> "I don't know about pm, but..." <- What is pm?
<uvos>
power management
<norayr>
i don't like android anyway. i like to have similar software stack on a computer and phone.
<uvos>
all devices besides the droid 4 have pretty poor power managment on mainline linux
<uvos>
(afaik)
<sicelo>
norayr you can't transfer files with N900 infrared. It's CIR ... i.e. output only.
<uvos>
(do correct me if i missed some device)
<norayr>
what about droid3?
<uvos>
norayr: right i mean mapphones generally
<norayr>
sicelo: can i send photos to printer with infrared?
<norayr>
out only means send, not receive, right?
<sicelo>
I don't think so. Even though you're sending, there will probably be a need for the printer to send acknowledgements, etc.
<norayr>
oh... maybe to send files there should be some error correction which will require receive option.
<norayr>
yeah, that's what i thought. :/
<uvos>
prining over otg should work
<uvos>
i gues ;)
<uvos>
altho n900 sorta broken otg
<norayr>
i opened pmos page... when you say p1 which device do you mean?
<norayr>
there's no p1 there.
<buZz>
weird bug? i had my d4 on nightstand with battery still, tried to turn screen on, remained black, connected charger, green led went on like everything was fine, power button still didnt turn screen on
<buZz>
eventually held down power+voldn for 7-10 secs, connected power, boom, Motorola logo
<Wizzup>
buZz: yes, this can happen with some problem in X
<buZz>
ah, ok, i wonder if a way to restart X from just buttons could work
<buZz>
maybe power+volup or something
<buZz>
but w/e , rebooting works
<Wizzup>
well, we need to fix the X issue
<buZz>
any idea what it is?
<Wizzup>
no, perhaps a memory leak
<buZz>
quite sure i didnt have a high uptime on it yet
<joerg>
uvos: N900 has no OTG but can do hostmode when you kick it hard
<joerg>
for this you need kernel patches that are very unlikely to be found in upstream kernels
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<uvos>
Wizzup: its not x its drm, x hangs looping on a failing drm ioctl
<uvos>
the same thing happens to sdl
<uvos>
(but it hangs there beacuse it uses blocking io)
<bencoh>
(if it can comfort you, similar stuff happen even on this mainstream intel-based desktop $here)
<Wizzup>
yeah afaik this is on blank & unblank only
<uvos>
no
<uvos>
i can happen any time
<Wizzup>
I haven't had it at other times
<uvos>
i def have
<uvos>
ff can trigger this faily often
<Wizzup>
ok
<rafael2k>
full disk encryption with maemo is pretty simple if you have a keyboard... just need to set an initrd in uboot
<uvos>
if you dont have a kyboard you could use fbkeyboard in initrd
<bencoh>
it might even work out-of-the-box with devuan actually
<rafael2k>
PP with the keyboard is the most useable Maemo if one wants 4G... the pp keyboard is important as it has a large battery, giving autonomy to use
<rafael2k>
uvos: true
<rafael2k>
indeed
<rafael2k>
I just heard the full disk encryption might break some alarm functionality of maemọ... but I think it is worth for one needing extra security
<rafael2k>
PP kernel already has all the bits for full disk encryption... will just work
<rafael2k>
: )
<uvos>
nothing in leste will break
<uvos>
at some point rtc alarms would break yes
<uvos>
but they work atm anyhow
<rafael2k>
may be we could consider officially supporting encryption, by having an installer and setting a proper initrd
<rafael2k>
right
<uvos>
*dont
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<rafael2k>
so nothing that works will break
<rafael2k>
: )
<rafael2k>
btw, I read someone mentioning Verizon, the PP also has a explicit Verizon VoLTE profile, so PP should fully support LTE + VoLTE on Verizon
<rafael2k>
just like with T-Mobile
<rafael2k>
(not MTS thoụ... could not get VoLTE working here yet, but still trying)
<rafael2k>
I'm getting close to get the main PP camera working
<rafael2k>
a couple more patches to sun6i to implement a couple of ioctl()'s...
<rafael2k>
ufff
<rafael2k>
I wish I had not started it... now I want to finish
<rafael2k>
:P
<rafael2k>
then I'll need help with the userland bringup
<rafael2k>
recover some old maemo code, port to gstreamer 1.0 (I think it was using gst 0.10 if my memory is still working)
<humpelstilzchen[>
fremantle is 0.10, yes
<rafael2k>
right
<joerg>
bencoh: >>similar stuff happen even on this mainstream intel-based desktop $here<< and here
<sicelo>
rafael2k isnt the pp camera working since long ago?
<sicelo>
joerg: regarding otg on n900 with linux mainline, there are some commands pali gave me, at least for enabling vbus on mainline. I've recently got an adapter and intend to test once I have time
<sicelo>
I hope it can work to some extent
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<rafael2k>
sicelo: v4l has maaaany ioctl()
<rafael2k>
PP camera in mainline has a bare minimum support...
<rafael2k>
no app works at all
<sicelo>
Megapixels?
<rafael2k>
(the only one that works is MegaPixels)
<rafael2k>
which is a software with very specific implementation
<rafael2k>
the implementation of the drivers is very poor
<sicelo>
Ok
<rafael2k>
I'm working on improving it
<rafael2k>
my goal is having libcamera and gstlibcamera working
<rafael2k>
and for this we need a minimum support from the drivers
<rafael2k>
(which is not available in the mobian branch we use)
<rafael2k>
anyway, even if we wanted to use MegaPixels, it is a gtk4 and does not run in Maemọ..
<sicelo>
I understand now
<rafael2k>
: )
<joerg>
sicelo: Vbus is simple, it's the state machine in MentorGrafscks MUSB that sucks. you need to literally force it into a test mode to enable it working as USB host
<joerg>
sicelo: see H-E-N hostmode easy now, it has a bash script to enable VBUS. I don't know if and where I have stored that script
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<joerg>
the kernel patches needed by N900 H-E-N are a terrible hack and we didn't even consider pushing them upstream
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<joerg>
they would be useless for any other hw platform except the fubar USB PHY of N900
<bencoh>
actually sw-driven manual host/gadget switching can be pretty handy on other platforms as well, since currently they either support id-detection built-in, or rely on some custom mechanism to enforce it
<bencoh>
so having it unified in the usb/musb infrastructure doesn't sound that bad to me
<bencoh>
and exporting it to the userspace once it's unified would be super easy
<bencoh>
(not that I expect that change to happen though, but it wouldn't be useless)
<joerg>
bencoh: the problem with N900 is : this generic host/gadget switching doesn't work on N900 hardware, you need to exploit a test mode in MUSB that comes with a lot of limitations
<bencoh>
for the records, all samsung phones have some "notification" mechanism to handle ID detection (or the usb3/type-c equivalent) and configure the actual usb block accordingly
<bencoh>
(since samsung relies on some external chip for that)
<joerg>
the problem is MG MUSB state machine relies in that ID-detection getting signaled from PHY "uplink" to the USB interface core in SoC, and there's no way to send that "ID" from CPU "downlink" to the USB core. Any forced mode switching works literally by sending a command via core to PHY: "please fake a IS detect signal" so the PHY sends that signal uplink to the MUSB core. N900 PHY can't do this, it doesn't provide ID faking