ChanServ changed the topic of #kisslinux to: Unnofficial KISS Linux community channel | | post logs or else | song of the day
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<sewn> Hi
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<testuser[m]> Hi
<xdream8[m]> kiss-rs has been completed up to the package building and package tarball creation section. Next step is package installation
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<Guest33> need to get a new android. any recommendations other than pixel? looking for lineageos or divestos compatibility.
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<sad_plan> hi
<Guest33> hey sad plan
<Guest33> you're on grapheneos, right? you probably wouldn't know much about divest and lineage, then
<sad_plan> yeah, I use graphene on my phoen, yes. I dont have much experience with divest, but ive had lineage on devices. my last phone had LOS, and my tablet has LOS currently
<sad_plan> divest is just a fork of LOS though
<sad_plan> ..with some improvements
<Guest33> i'm looking for a new phone but all my choices seem shitty
<sad_plan> well. it all depends on what you want though
<Guest33> what do you mean?
<sad_plan> from a security standpoint, nothing but currently supported pixels is a no go
<sad_plan> depends on what you need/want in a phone
<sad_plan> and what price range you want obviously
<sad_plan> some phones are.. expencive to say th least
<Guest33> i agree, honestly the grapheneos experience should've been the default android.
<sad_plan> I agree. ive never been more happy with a phone and phone OS as Ive been with grapheneOS on my p4a
<Guest33> strangely, android is more like windows/macos than linux
<Guest33> anyway, in my case, i know i won't be getting a pixel as it's not available to me. samsung is really bad when it comes to rom freedom, so xiaomi devices seem to be my only options
<sad_plan> what. in what way? you do know that android runs linux kernel, yes?
<Guest33> oh yeah, i meant to say "ironically, google has made android more like windows/macos"
<sad_plan> you could check out calyx though, its also a decent OS. has support for a few more devices iirc
<sad_plan> but how has google made it more like windows/macos?
<Guest33> they dropped their xiaomi support in 2022 i think
<sad_plan> hm, yeah seems so. its pixel 3-7a, and fairphone 4. aswell ase some other unknown device I dont recognize
<Guest33> i mean it's like way more commercial
<Guest33> idk how to word it
<Guest33> with cfw, certainly not as much
<sad_plan> its not commnuity driven, more like graphene is
<Guest33> oh i was talking about google and android
<Guest33> not calyx
<sad_plan> ah
<Guest33> linux to me is almost synonymous with freedom, i don't feel like i have that on android
<sad_plan> are there less roms now than it was couple years back? when I had my oneplus 6, it had a hell of a lot of roms to pick from
<sad_plan> well.. android is still foss though, google just ships with some proprietary stuff
<sad_plan> like playstore. but that can be removed
<Guest33> oh yeah, i don't really use any proprietary apps
<Guest33> but then again all i'm talking about is user apps. i bet the system software that work in the background aren't foss at all
<sad_plan> you should be able to verify that yourself, by building your own rom. grapheneos i.e. is afaik reprocable
<sad_plan> reproducable
<Guest33> like to operate this phone's camera, fingerprint sensor and all that, they need lots of proprietary blobs
<sad_plan> yeah, firmware is more often than not proprietary, unfortunatly
<sad_plan> i know pine64 is working on that, but theyre stuff is.. lacking for more folks
<sewn> just go with a dumbphone honestly
<Guest33> How do you consume, then
<sad_plan> while dumbphone sounds appealing, theyre mostly a security nightmare. wont recieve any updates usually
<sad_plan> you dont
<sad_plan> ultimate freedom
<sewn> if you care about the software about your phone you should also care about free of self
<sewn> do not doomscroll
<sad_plan> ^
<sewn> I've been doing it since I was born and I'm telling you to escape it
<Guest33> Buying a book costs money, downloading an .epub is free
<sad_plan> piracy is the way
<sewn> you're paying the author for his work
<Guest33> Who died several centuries ago?
<sewn> unless you can send donations then its fine
<sewn> Guest33: nvm ur right in that case
<sad_plan> if you wanna support artists, or creators, do it in a more ethical way, like using bandcamp, to actually buy their music.
<sad_plan> i suppose patreon is also a way aswell
<sewn> liberapay
<Guest33> I agree that phones lead to a lot of consumption we clearly don't need, but they're also necessary for at least some of us
<sad_plan> how does librepay even work?
<Guest33> I can't imagine going through an encyclopedia to look something up
<sewn> a phone is primarily made for communication, use it and the conveniences it also gives you, like camera
<sad_plan> s/librepay/liberapay/
<sewn> sad_plan: idk I haven't used it
<sad_plan> ok
<sad_plan> a phone is a tool. use it as a too, dont let it use you
<sewn> yes speaking from experience
<sad_plan> yup
<Guest33> Isn't it a bit ironic in #kisslinux?
<sad_plan> how so?
<Guest33> I feel like we do much more than just using our computers as tools when installing, configuring and maintaining our kiss system
<sad_plan> sure, but kisslinux also gives you the option to learn
<sad_plan> ive learnt alot of stuff since I started using kisslinux
<sad_plan> or linux in general really
<Guest33> Yeah that's true
<sad_plan> so one could argue that I in this sence use linux as a tool to learn
<sad_plan> now wether the way Im currently running stuff is the most effective way, is a different story entierly
<Guest33> Where do we draw line between using a device and letting it use us, then?
<sad_plan> I suppose that would be when you stop benefiting from its use
<Guest33> Sometimes I catch myself min-maxing every little thing, tailoring every tiny detail to my liking. Since it's very repetitive, I don't really learn anything from it.
<sad_plan> but its optimizing, yes? if so, id say its benefitial. and while things may not feel like youre actually learning alot of stuff, you still gain some experience. atleast you can
<Guest33> I hope so. There's a chance I'll never need to compile my custom Linux kernel in the future, so all of this could be a waste. Then again, it's a hobby, so nothing wrong with it
<sad_plan> its still learning something new. I also dont suppose id ever compile a linux kernel for anything besides myself, so I wouldnt benefit from that, beyond my own selfinterest in playing with linux
<sewn> <Guest33> "I feel like we do much more than..." <- each of us have different perspectives on computers
<Guest33> Are you saying for some of us, Kisslinux is the goal, not the journey?
<Guest33> What I mean by that is, for someone whose goal is to look up something online, it's a waste of time to install extensions on their browser. But if it's your goal to build a kiss system, then, for you, your computer remains a tool.
<sewn> kiss is a journey that will always continue like the rest
<sewn> much like you went from Ubuntu to arch
<sewn> you will simply gain knowledge, and freedom to do with it
<sewn> I'm very bad at philosophy
<sad_plan> we also evlolve here. people are curious. which is why people move to more minimal OS's, like going from ubuntu to arch, and then maybe gentoo, or kisslinux or w/e
<sad_plan> people also has different needs/wants, as sewn said. so someone might not care for anything but the browser, because all they do is browser based. like paying bills or looking up some stuff online or w/e else people wanna do in a browser
<sewn> if someones just gonna do stuff in a browser might as well get a chromebook
<Guest33> I like that. I don'r really see anything a waste of time in my life -well, except for waiting in line- since I don't have a purpose I need to fulfill.
<sad_plan> sure, but those also cost money. if they already got a shitty laptop, they might not wanna invest in a new one, if their shitty laptop still works
<sewn> Guest33: if you tried something, and it had a bad outcome; would you consider it a waste of time or a learning experience?
<Guest33> Learning experience.
<sad_plan> ^ that depends entierly on ones mindset
<Guest33> Doesn't even need to be hypothethical, we all must have had several of those.
<sad_plan> if youre a nihilist, everything is a waste, and dont matter :p
<Guest33> well aren't you a relativist
<sewn> I consider myself a nihilist poser tbh
<sad_plan> lol
<sewn> I agree with the concept and everything but I don't exactly perform it
<sad_plan> but if you think about it. with everything thats going on in your life, and around you, does anything actually matter in the long run? seeing as how miniscule we are in the scale of the universe
<sewn> we don't matter and everything is going to fade away.
<sad_plan> correct
<sewn> the job is to make do and live experiences before we die
<Guest33> But it hurts when I get punched
<sewn> that's what I hope to do
<sewn> Guest33: its better than not existing
<sewn> at least in my opinion
<sewn> utter and absolute sorrow or depression is probably worse than not existing
<sewn> but its up to you to change it and get better
<sad_plan> if you dont exist, you got no problems
<sewn> but you exist
<sewn> you can't do anything about it until you perform the sacred act, which one would regret right before so
<sad_plan> I do, but if I stop, all my problems go away. however, I now give someone else new problems, that didnt exist prior to me no longer exisitng
<sewn> so realistically its worse to drop all your problems on someone unresponsible
<sewn> its only permissible until you have absolutely nothing left behind you
<sad_plan> yeah, they wont know how to fix anything, atleast probably. likely this person would get overwhelmed by all of it, and give up or something
<Guest33> I don't see why we need to approach it selflessly
<sewn> getting overwhelmed is part of solving it and breaking it down
<Guest33> Ultimately, when you're gone, according to you, nothing exists
<sewn> you don't realize you're gone
<Guest33> No one is suffering if you aren't there to witness
<Guest33> yeah, there'd be no "according to you"
<sad_plan> things exist, but nothing matters in the scale of the universe initially
<Guest33> It's not like I'm well versed in any of this, but I don't really think what's in our mind, like our thoughts and all the -isms, reflect well in real life. Yeah, universe is uncomparably big to our lives. Conversely, nothing but our own lives would be significant enough for us to care about the most at any point.
<Guest33> and I have no idea what I just said
<sewn> you're saying your actions don't result in anything meaningful?
<sewn> only the result matters to the executor?
<Guest33> I don't think so?
<sewn> I don't have any idea what you said either man
<Guest33> I think what I'm saying is I don't find it probable for someone to be absolutely nihilist to the bones in the sense that they don't care about nothing since nothing matters. As long as you're alive, you'll simply be affected by life. But this oversimplying nihilism, so it doesn't amount to anything.
<sad_plan> thats more like it. one can say that they dont care about anything, because nihilism, but they probably has family, friends, things they like, or even are pationatlly about. which to some degree negates nihilism
<sewn> I don't think any of us knows what nihilism was meant for
<Guest33> Yep
<sewn> but I wouldn't imagine its giving up on everything and doing nothing
<sewn> that's just depression
<Guest33> I think what we do is akin to people assuming hacking is that one NCIS scene where 2 people simultaneously use a keyboard to hack faster.
<sad_plan> omg, I hate those scene. they makes me cringe so bad. I mostly hate movies/series that give an unrealistic view on how computer stuff is done
<sewn> now you know how nihilists see this conversation
<sad_plan> lol
<sad_plan> im reading on the wiki page for nihilism, and some nihilist positions claims that knowledge is imposible
<sad_plan> knowledge is.. imposible
* sad_plan what
<Guest33> What my takeaway from nihilism is existing despite everything. That's where nothing matters comes into play. It doesn't matter if you're shackled or sent to war; you'll exist.
<Guest33> I highly doubt I scratched the surface.
<sewn> nothing mattering is what makes it matter
<Guest33> Thanks.
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<sewn> for... what
<sad_plan> I dunno man