<midfavila>
i've not used it yet but i'm very excited to try
<wael[m]>
whats a mgr
<midfavila>
ManaGeR or MunGeR is a windowing system developed in 1984 at Bellcore, a Baby Bell
<midfavila>
originally it only ran on Sun workstations but it was eventually ported to MINIX, Linux, Atari, and a bunch of other computers
<midfavila>
it's *really* small
<midfavila>
the entire distribution total is 66k lines of code. that's the server, the terminal emulator, the window manager, the abstraction library from the underlying hardware, all the driver code to interface that library with different OSes and hardware, and every single client available with the core distrib, as well as the build system and documentation
<midfavila>
most of it is C, some is ELisp, and a small amount is assembly
<wael[m]>
awesome
<midfavila>
it can also be built in its entirety with tcc
<midfavila>
the problem is that it's pre-ANSI C
<midfavila>
and it also hasn't been touched in literally decades
<wael[m]>
now is your turn to maintain it singlehandedly
<midfavila>
i would if i could
<midfavila>
but i know fuck-all about computers
<midfavila>
or computer science
<midfavila>
i'm (slowly) correcting the latter
<midfavila>
i learned my first sorting routine the other day u wu
<phoebos>
woop
<phoebos>
bubble?
<midfavila>
selection
<midfavila>
my textbook is in C but it was pretty easy to implement a recursive version in scheme from the algorithm's description
<wael[m]>
what about bogo
<midfavila>
cringe
<midfavila>
this is a gnomesort chat
<wael[m]>
whats gnomesort
<midfavila>
look it up
<wael[m]>
its a GNOME program that sorts!!!!!! wow
<midfavila>
version of selection sort that doesn't use nested loops
<wael[m]>
wow looks really cool
<midfavila>
it's conceptually interesting
<midfavila>
of course, it's not useful in practice
<midfavila>
at least selection sort has the useful trait of being *extremely* consistent and predictable
<midfavila>
apparently it's used in some realtime systems because of that reason
<midfavila>
i'm pretty excited to learn about heapsort
<midfavila>
apparently it's just an improved selection sort
<midfavila>
there was another sort that i wanted to learn that was somewhat unique in being "online", i.e being able to work with a set of data that's being dynamically modified
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<wael_>
phoebos: what does bvnf or bnvf mean
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<midfavila>
>social worker suggests I look at this site for helping people like me find work
<midfavila>
trying that, but now i have to decide between food and internet
<midfavila>
i can't acquire memes without food and internet but i can't have both without employment
<asdfhjkl>
i'm coming back to kiss
<asdfhjkl>
slowly
<asdfhjkl>
How is everyone doing
<asdfhjkl>
I used to be adamantium before, on the old community repo
<asdfhjkl>
A buddy is asking me about full disk encryption - you guys doing that? is there luks in community or? I'm not seeing it. Do we have ext4 native encryption built in>?
<midfavila>
there's FDE stuff in recent KISS releases iirc
<midfavila>
i don't bother
<midfavila>
i probably should but i don't care to learn how to set up an initramfs
<dilynm>
tinyramfs has really good support for FDE, but I don't know what the current state of the tooling is in the repos
<dilynm>
I don't use FDE (don't tell my boss)
<midfavila>
brb calling rn
<dilynm>
How did you get marks number
<midfavila>
he's my textdoor neighbor
<dilynm>
Oh dang
<dilynm>
Gz
<asdfhjkl>
dylanaraps awol again?
<midfavila>
has been for a while, pretty sure he's done with KISS
<midfavila>
or at least KISS-Community/was never really interested
<asdfhjkl>
i feel like he does it on purpose to test the idstro
<asdfhjkl>
distro.
<midfavila>
he's also probably just busy
<asdfhjkl>
he wants it to be self maintainable and live on
<asdfhjkl>
w/o him
<midfavila>
and/or got what he wanted out of KISS
<asdfhjkl>
hopefully the clot shot didn't get him
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<asdfhjkl>
what the hell just happened
<midfavila>
???
<asdfhjkl>
?>?Nvm
<asdfhjkl>
Anyways I'm thinking about making a tool to just kind of keep all these sources managed from git instead of updating damn version files and depending on the internet
<asdfhjkl>
I'm a doomer so, juts want to have all the sources for everything hackable locally at all times
<asdfhjkl>
Internet blackouts, etc
<midfavila>
>not having your own local server to store source code on
<asdfhjkl>
everything is in git, i've got a list
<asdfhjkl>
except gmp, damn lib is only upstream on mercurial
<asdfhjkl>
and the curl pem file is well just a file
<asdfhjkl>
have a git server running here at home
<asdfhjkl>
git.asdfhjkl.xyz
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<asdfhjkl>
couple of approaches could take here i'm thinking
<asdfhjkl>
if you juts use something like gitea, it'll just mirror everything and you can point your sources to your git mirror
<asdfhjkl>
OTOH, could also just overlay everything and make some tooling to manage all your forks
<dilynm>
Sounds like a lot of effort
<asdfhjkl>
source based distros are uniquely positioned to offer the source to people who want to hack, i hate this heavy dependency on upstream source urls being available, and heavy dependency on an always-on internet
<asdfhjkl>
i think the kiss overlay system is the simplest of them all to just build it out however you like and have all your sources
<asdfhjkl>
i'm always surprised how abstracted shit is on things like gentoo
<dilynm>
Theoretically there's nothing stopping you from just keeping all the sources in .cache/kiss/sources in the expected way
<dilynm>
Or slightly modify kiss
<asdfhjkl>
ok yeah, i was hoping someone would bring up .cache
<asdfhjkl>
remind me again how .cache works, how is it managed
<asdfhjkl>
kiss fetches sources, stores them in .cache, on an update, does it remove the older source cache or leave it in place?
<dilynm>
It's made by kiss if it doesnt exist, it's got some sub directories sanely named, and it keeps the original tar all and the extracted directory or clones the repo to the right subdir
<dilynm>
It leaves in place
<dilynm>
If it's a git repo I believe it just runs git pull tho
<dilynm>
Or checks out the different commit/branch/whatever
<asdfhjkl>
OK, yes! so it clones the repos to .cache
<dilynm>
Yah
<asdfhjkl>
and pulls those / checks out commit /branch whatever
<asdfhjkl>
The sources file for git, how do you specifiy git branch and commit, and if you don't specify commit, does it just pull a branch when you bump a version number?
<dilynm>
Indeed. So you could just set the cache dir to whatever path your keeping copies of the package upstreams to, and in general you'll be fine
<dilynm>
@ or # appended to the URL, will just shallow clone default branch if unspecified
<asdfhjkl>
A git mirror server is ideal then
<dilynm>
If you bump the version and don't change anything else I would assume it just updates the local copy
<asdfhjkl>
How do I find all the options for sources syntax with git
<asdfhjkl>
Do i have to read the kiss source or is it documented somewhere
<asdfhjkl>
IIRC it was something like git+$CLONE_URL branch commit
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<asdfhjkl>
I don't know if you saw my last question -- appreciate the comments. Do you guys have the synx file options for git based 'sources' files?
<asdfhjkl>
documented somewhere?
<asdfhjkl>
syntax*
<dilynm>
It's documented in kiss, just a few lines tbh
<dilynm>
Also explicitly on the official website, probably also the community site
<asdfhjkl>
sick
<asdfhjkl>
Git repositories must be prefixed with git+. An optional suffix is supported to
<asdfhjkl>
checkout a specific branch (@BRANCH) or commit (#COMMIT). All clones are shallow
<asdfhjkl>
where supported by the remote server. If no suffix is used, master is cloned.
<asdfhjkl>
and also i don't need a checksums file it says
<asdfhjkl>
So ... if I want to do this, just fork repo, and remove checksums, change the sources to my self-hosted hosted my mirror server - but what about the versions file, how do think I should handle those
<asdfhjkl>
> number. If the source is a Git repository, the
<asdfhjkl>
version should be set to 'git'.
<asdfhjkl>
Got it.
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<asdfhjkl>
dilynm - one more thing, about initramfs, i know i know ... but i'm thinking about not only trying to provide the most easily sources available, but it'd be nice to have a kernel option available that just supported tons of hardware out of the box, any recommended tool for generating initramfs? I'm thinking about using arch default config options,
<asdfhjkl>
but am going to need an initramfs builder
<dilynm>
I'd use the Ubuntu kernel for a good generic one. I'm actually making a package rn for it...
<asdfhjkl>
LMAO sick
<asdfhjkl>
alright
<asdfhjkl>
im going to have to start my fork of repo and get the sources all mirroring from upstream to my local git server. You know what would be nice would be to not hardcode my upstream remote in to my sources so that others can use their own mirror servers easily
<asdfhjkl>
What do you think it would take to get the sources file to read an environment variable
<asdfhjkl>
why ubuntu kernel sources though, think of all those patches and shit that'd have to be backported, sounds awful. That's why i'm leaning towards an arch kernel
<dilynm>
Because canonical has SLAs which make them legally obligated to provide fixes for CVEs and add hardware support
<dilynm>
Arch has no such obligation
<asdfhjkl>
More power to you
<asdfhjkl>
Godspeed
<dilynm>
:v
<dilynm>
I've built too many Ubuntu kernels this year haha
<asdfhjkl>
Hehehh takes like 4 hours
<asdfhjkl>
Buuuuut you're gonna have drivers
<dilynm>
Well my desktop builds it in a couple minutes
<asdfhjkl>
Nice
<asdfhjkl>
Lots of a threads and ccache?
<dilynm>
But ofc im on holiday away from home so I just have my laptop :')
<dilynm>
Just threads. I never use ccache
<asdfhjkl>
yea i just started holiday too
<asdfhjkl>
So here's what I'm thinking, some type of project that spins up whatever the most minimal self hosted git mirror server out there, would allow the community a pure sources self hosted option, host your own sources, always hand, e.g. you can work without the net
<asdfhjkl>
i'm eye balling and testing out gitea, could use SQLITE, still need nodejs and npm though to compile the javascript and css shit
<asdfhjkl>
the reason i'm leaning that way is gitea has an eye towards federation and grants in that category
<asdfhjkl>
and imagine our community distro getting off github and off codeberg
<asdfhjkl>
everyone just had their own sources up and going
<dilynm>
Well previously I was hosting the repos on linode, but folx opted to swap to codeberg
<dilynm>
So idk what's up
<asdfhjkl>
but gmp, that damn package i tell you
<asdfhjkl>
it's the only lib in 'repo' that doesn't have a an official upstream git
<asdfhjkl>
mercurial
<asdfhjkl>
So work arounds may be needed there
<asdfhjkl>
we could add merc support to kiss i guess
<asdfhjkl>
or find a git server mirror hosting system that supports merc
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<asdfhjkl>
Alright full disk encryption - what's the kiss way to do this
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<dilynm>
Dylan's website is now for sale :( f
<asdfhjkl>
wat
<asdfhjkl>
project needs to grow past him
<dilynm>
I agree
<dilynm>
I was just hoping he'd resurface somewhere but it's been a year
<asdfhjkl>
a rebranding is probably needed, better docs, up to date everything all in one place again
<asdfhjkl>
i'm an og kiss user and just finding all the pieces between his old site and the new bvnf.space pages and the codeberg was a hassle
<dilynm>
Agreed :v
<asdfhjkl>
however one reason i am back is that you guys kept it going
<asdfhjkl>
That was question, is this another distro that will die when the leader dies?
<asdfhjkl>
The answer is no, you guys rock
<dilynm>
Oasis
<dilynm>
Definitely would die*
<asdfhjkl>
EXACTLY DOGGG
<asdfhjkl>
No one can figure out that genius level shit
<asdfhjkl>
michael forney <3
<dilynm>
Long live the mvp
<asdfhjkl>
dylan did something genius it's a distro that won't die when he's done and there's no funding for it, maintainable by enthusiasts
<asdfhjkl>
it's that simple
<asdfhjkl>
So we can't let him kill it, need to get teh barrier to entry lower by improving the docs and getting everything consolidated again
<asdfhjkl>
This place used to be popping
<asdfhjkl>
(The irc)
<dilynm>
I like the heightened barrier tbh
<asdfhjkl>
Hahahaha
<dilynm>
I think we all would've burned out two years ago if the barrier were too low
<asdfhjkl>
Hey guyz I just dl'd the files and extracted and can't get bootloader to load the kernel plz helps thx
<dilynm>
I mean shit, a lot of us burned out just doing normal shit and lightly providing support
<dilynm>
Lmao yeah
<asdfhjkl>
I'd like this to be something reputed you know, like crux or slackware, just a friggin simple option that people know is there with guys bumping packages.
<asdfhjkl>
Thing is I got tired of bumping packages and repology burned me out
<asdfhjkl>
So that's why I'm thinking about OK, how to get this rolling in a way that is even easier
<asdfhjkl>
It's more complex at first, but I wonder if we're just rolling commits and all having 100% source code locally stored
<dilynm>
I was toying with the idea recently of providing en entirely binary repository
<dilynm>
But that's a lot to offer :v
<asdfhjkl>
That is
<asdfhjkl>
I think maybe an installer rather would be preferred by most, just, you want kiss? choose your options, execute the thing, and yay, you're a kiss user, now, read these docs for how to upgrade a package, how to overlay a package, bump its version, and open a pull request, and yay, now you're a contributing member of the project
<asdfhjkl>
Dreaded words "installer" I know
<asdfhjkl>
But when you let them in, then those people might get inspired and do something, like give us a self hosted build server and binary package options, support more architectures, things like that
<asdfhjkl>
A lot of good developers know how to code, they just don't want to fuck with an initramfs or make menuconfig kernel shit at first before actually being able to try a distro at least, and get a feel for what life might be like on it
<dilynm>
Someone at some point had some sort of installer going
<dilynm>
Technically an installer wouldn't be hard to implement. But also, it takes twenty seconds to install KISS
<dilynm>
Mount disk, untar, add boot entry, reboot
<phoebos>
everything is quite spread out but that's a problem with being separate-but-not-quite from dylan
<phoebos>
all the stuff from which people come across kiss is from dylan
<phoebos>
and so, points to his stuff
<phoebos>
the only direct link between $/kisslinux and us is that open issue on $/kisslinux/repo saying we have a fork
<phoebos>
and that points to github lol
<asdfhjkl>
so how much to just buy kisslinux
<asdfhjkl>
you said it's for sale
<asdfhjkl>
dilynm
<phoebos>
dy1an.xyz is for sale
<asdfhjkl>
oh
<phoebos>
dylan's personal site.
<asdfhjkl>
that's a premium domain right there
<asdfhjkl>
buhaha
<phoebos>
i'd feel strange about completely overrunning dylan's domain name etc. "Kiss Linux" has always been his
<phoebos>
however
<phoebos>
this is the only distro I know of with such a large and separate community
<dilynm>
Yeah I don't think we should at all touch kisslinux branded stuff. The reddit and IRC are fine because that's always been for the community. But the URL is his
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<illiliti>
now look at the voidlinux and its story
<illiliti>
tl;dr community took over everything
<asdfhjkl>
yup
<asdfhjkl>
There's enough talent here to do it, better docs, marketing and rebrand all that's needed